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Thread: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Have you considered skin on frame?
    Not only have I not considered it, I'd never heard of it! Thanks! I guess I'll do more research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    Going back to weight. My WT trailer is 70kg, not built to be particulaly light, but fully suspended for long trips with coils and shocks. But, I can launch and retrieve the boat on slips by hand, so a much lighter trailer would do easily.
    My rig is probably a bit heavier than the alternative lug, so some savings there too. We also have to carry things like anchors and stuff to conform to regs. All adds up.
    I've not heard of WT trailers, are those available in the US? What does it look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by phiil View Post
    This works well. Basically just a dolly under the boat and a hitch that attaches to the bow. Works a treat.
    Something like that was my original plan, but several people in this thread expressed concern over how to get the boat from the water back on to the dolly -- how much does your boat there weigh and what's your usual process for retrieving it, if you don't mind my asking?
    Also, that's a cool-looking shape to your e-bike. I'm curious what kind it is, I've not seen it before. I have a Gazelle that I adore.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    You mentioned Erik Hvalsoe's HV16 in your original post but have concerns about lofting. I wouldn't be too concerned. It's actually a great way to learn about your boat and is not as difficult as it seems.
    I don;t know what it weighs. You'd have to ask Erik. He sails his own HV16 and is very approachable and a very decent human being.

    This thread from a few years back has lots of good information on the boat.

    If it were me, I'd consider building the HV16 in glued-lap ply. For us amateur builders of boats that live on a trailer most of the time, easier to keep watertight.
    Alex

    "The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore.”
    - Vincent van Gogh

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    Something I'm thinking about while reading all of the ideas here. If one of the goals is to build a bike-trailerable boat suitable for camp cruising in the Cape Cod area then hull weight is just one factor to consider. I'm trying to imagine towing all of the gear needed for such an expedition, along with the boat and all it's spars, rigging, etc. Doable, maybe, but that requirement may need to be factored into the design parameters as it may further constrain the weight of the boat. And then once you get to the launch site, get the boat in the water and rigged, gear for some number of days stowed, you are ready to cast off the lines... but where is the Gazelle? Locked to a bike rack for the duration?

    Of course there have been long voyages by bike and boat. Julie and Colin Angus's Scotland to Syria expedition that I linked a few posts back is one example. But it seems like a major effort with a lot of planning and specialized equipment needed to make it work. So instead, I'm wondering if we aren't talking about two different boats.

    1. First build: A lightweight, trailerable, boat suitable for day sailing protected waters. Skin-on-frame (SOF) makes a lot of sense here. Something like Dave Gentry's Annabelle or Melonseed, or maybe a sailing canoe like Chautauqua. Easy and fast to build, easy to tow, light enough to make launching and recovery simple.

    2. Second build: A larger coastal camp cruiser. Not limited to bike trailering (stay with me - I have a suggestion there). There are many great design options here once you remove the weight limit. And for transportation, rent a U-Haul pickup as a tow vehicle. Easy, relatively inexpensive, and you can tow as large a boat as you like.

    Of course if one goal is to not involve a gasoline-fueled vehicle of any sort then we are back to the bike-trailerable cruising boat. But then I think we should be talking about those requirements in more detail. Cruising where? For how long? With what gear? And what logistics for bicycle and trailer storage or transport while cruising? An interesting challenge, but one that is far more complicated that just finding the lightest suitable boat I think.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    Wouldn’t it be just as easy to simply walk 3/4 mile towing a dolly? Make it a three wheeled version, and you needn’t even support weight, but just pull and push to stop.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    You mentioned Erik Hvalsoe's HV16 in your original post but have concerns about lofting. I wouldn't be too concerned. It's actually a great way to learn about your boat and is not as difficult as it seems.
    I don;t know what it weighs. You'd have to ask Erik. He sails his own HV16 and is very approachable and a very decent human being.
    According to his website, the hull weight is 155 lbs. And yeah, I genuinely don't know how hard lofting is -- all I know is most of the plans I've considered enthusiastically point out that they have "No lofting required!" so I assumed it was a bit of an ordeal. If I do go with either the HV16 or Harrier (or some other lofting-required plan) I'll likely try making a scale model out of cardboard and stiff paper or something to make sure I have all the shapes right. It'd give me something to do over the winter while it's too cold for epoxy to cure, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Something I'm thinking about while reading all of the ideas here. If one of the goals is to build a bike-trailerable boat suitable for camp cruising in the Cape Cod area then hull weight is just one factor to consider. I'm trying to imagine towing all of the gear needed for such an expedition, along with the boat and all it's spars, rigging, etc. Doable, maybe, but that requirement may need to be factored into the design parameters as it may further constrain the weight of the boat. And then once you get to the launch site, get the boat in the water and rigged, gear for some number of days stowed, you are ready to cast off the lines... but where is the Gazelle? Locked to a bike rack for the duration?

    Of course there have been long voyages by bike and boat. Julie and Colin Angus's Scotland to Syria expedition that I linked a few posts back is one example. But it seems like a major effort with a lot of planning and specialized equipment needed to make it work. So instead, I'm wondering if we aren't talking about two different boats.

    1. First build: A lightweight, trailerable, boat suitable for day sailing protected waters. Skin-on-frame (SOF) makes a lot of sense here. Something like Dave Gentry's Annabelle or Melonseed, or maybe a sailing canoe like Chautauqua. Easy and fast to build, easy to tow, light enough to make launching and recovery simple.

    2. Second build: A larger coastal camp cruiser. Not limited to bike trailering (stay with me - I have a suggestion there). There are many great design options here once you remove the weight limit. And for transportation, rent a U-Haul pickup as a tow vehicle. Easy, relatively inexpensive, and you can tow as large a boat as you like.

    Of course if one goal is to not involve a gasoline-fueled vehicle of any sort then we are back to the bike-trailerable cruising boat. But then I think we should be talking about those requirements in more detail. Cruising where? For how long? With what gear? And what logistics for bicycle and trailer storage or transport while cruising? An interesting challenge, but one that is far more complicated that just finding the lightest suitable boat I think.
    So, the position I'm coming from here, besides general ignorance and a lot of hope, is that I love bike touring, backpacking, and going for adventures in general. So now I'm just bursting with enthusiasm to expand my horizons in that way. I might just be biting off more than I can chew, but that's something I'll have to find out, I guess.

    Unfortunately, short of selling my house, I don't think a second boat is really an option. I only have 1 offstreet parking spot worth of space to store a boat in, so there's no room for a second. My hope comes from the fact that if I'm ok working with only what I can carry on my back or in a couple panniers, I don't need to pack particularly heavy, so hopefully a small boat is all I'll need. So far as where and for how long, I think the scope of my ambitions at the moment would be to eventually sail to Nantucket or Martha's Vinyard. I know people have taken Sunfish across the sound, so with good weather I think it's within the realm of possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Wouldn’t it be just as easy to simply walk 3/4 mile towing a dolly? Make it a three wheeled version, and you needn’t even support weight, but just pull and push to stop.
    This would be ideal, and if I can find some place to launch on the south bank of the mystic in walking distance, would make a lot of sense. There's one problem with the route from my house to the nearest ramp -- I have to take the Fellsway bridge over the Mystic, and while the protected pedestrian walkway is wide enough to get a 5-footish boat over, it's not wide enough to do so without blocking people going in the other direction. The bike lanes, since they're not bidirectional, don't have this problem. Also, in an ideal world, if I get this working reasonably well it opens up more opportunities for launching points, or access to some of the lakes a couple miles away.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    I'm a fan of the "bite off more than you can chew" approach to life. Which has not always worked out for me, as other forum members here can attest, but no matter. Ok then. An ocean-capable, camp cruising dinghy light enough to be bike-trailerable with all the gear needed for a multi-day cruise. A tall order but a great goal. I have nothing more to contribute, as I have little experience with any of those things, but I'll be very interested to hear what you end up doing!

    Well, actually, one more thing to add. What about a multi-hull design of some sort? Or a sea kayak with outriggers? This setup from Michael Storer (who designed the GIS) is interesting

    https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat...ailing-videos/

    Taking that concept a step further, I wonder how Dave Gentry's SOF Chautauqua sailing canoe would do with outriggers?

    http://gentrycustomboats.com/Chautauqua.html

    I don't know if I'd take one in open water as designed, although Dave has completed the Everglades Challenge in one so it's certainly seaworthy in the right hands. But it's ultra light, at 65lbs. And very narrow, which I think would be an advantage as well. Others may have better opinions on the suitability of something like that for your area though.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikaK View Post
    Not only have I not considered it, I'd never heard of it! Thanks! I guess I'll do more research.



    I've not heard of WT trailers, are those available in the US? What does it look like?
    Sorry, WT= Whilley Tern. The trailer is home made (My first proper job was building boat trailers)

    A2

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    Erika, Ultralight boatbuilding by Tom Hill is a great book on glued lapstrake. I think many boatplans can be adapted tot this construction. Frank
    www.oarandsail.nl

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    CLC Passagemaker Dinghy is available in both take-apart and standard versions, weighs 90# and can be seen towed by a bike in Germany on YouTube. Good track record.

    https://www.clcboats.com/shop/wooden.../passagemaker/

    This is a new project just coming out. 65-75#. Camp-cruising!

    https://duckworks.com/plans-kits/kit...ackages/scout/

    Enjoy!

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    As some others have mentioned, but I think it's really worth emphasizing, the hull weight is _not_ the total weight that you need to go sailing! Even a lightweight expensive carbon mast is going to weigh at least probably 10lbs, the sail is going to weigh something, the rudder, centerboard, lines, nevermind things like water food, lifejackets, clothing. So, I think you want to really aim on the low end of the weight for the _hull_ so that you will actually have enough capacity for what you need and still be able to get it on the trailer.

    Also, I'm not sure if you know, but if you're near mystic then you are close to one of the best marine plywood suppliers in the country, Boulter Plywood, and they will happily deliver (to me, on the other side of the city, they charge something like a flat $40 or $50 for a delivery, but to you hopefully it's cheaper! -- they sell plywood but also other marine lumber) -- you absolutely want to built out of occume, as otherwise none of the weights you read will match what you build.

    For the design itself, my best recommendation would be to write to the fine folks at Duckworks (there's a link to contact them at the bottom of their website) and beg them to give you plans, or a cut file that you can get a local CNC shop to cut, for this boat: https://duckworks.com/scout-cnc-kit/ (I'm sure they are planning to make it available more widely eventually, so may be happy to help, and they are very friendly in general).

    It's 65-75 lbs, should be big enough for you plus a guest at times, has lots of floatation so it should be reasonably safe (as safe as you're going to get at this small weight!), and designed for camp cruising! In general, while skin on frame is great, it doesn't have the benefit of sealed floatation which I think would really benefit your desire to be out in the harbor.

    With that weight, you could add 50lbs worth of gear and still have something that would be comfortable to tow!

    [edit] Ooops just saw Brian W. suggested the same boat! Well, it's a good idea![/edit]
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    I've been wanting to do this for a while, some day I might even get around to it: Fliptail 7 folding boat towed behind Brompton folding bike.

    The boat won't win any races, but it's hard to beat on cost and convenience.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty J View Post
    I've been wanting to do this for a while, some day I might even get around to it: Fliptail 7 folding boat towed behind Brompton folding bike.

    The boat won't win any races, but it's hard to beat on cost and convenience.
    That looks neat, but you're nuts if you want to take that boat out in the outer boston harbor (or even in the inner harbor, with the wake from all the boats, etc).
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    Another potential nesting option, under 100#: http://www.ptwatercraft.com/ptwaterc...scription.html

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints



    Angus Boats built/ designed their Expedition Rowboat for bikes: they fit inside (big hatches) with the trolley and then can be used to portage them along the way. They went across Europe with a pair. They have a trimaran that might be more work to pack if sailing was a must. If you like cycling you'll probably appreciate the rowing though. Simple stitch and tape. Well designed and tested by people that do it.





    Plans can include dxf plywood cut list if you want to get a kit cut.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 09-30-2021 at 12:34 PM.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    With weight being such a big issue the Duckworks Scout is made to order, down to the carbon fiber mast. Good outfit to do business with too.
    In a rolly harbor I'd sure like to see another 4'-5' OAL though.
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
    ♦ The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it
    ♦ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear
    ♦ George Orwell

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    the only place I have to work on carpentry projects is the offstreet parking space behind my house,
    Erikak, does this 8x18 foot parking space have a roof? Can it be secured? Building a boat out out in the open is hard enough, but it sounds like it will be where passerbys can inspect/mess with/steal and otherwise harass your project.

    Also, what is your level of carpentry experience? It sounds to me like you've picked some challenging projects for a first time build.

    There are indeed a great many designs to choose from and I can certainly understand having difficulty choosing among them. My very first post here years ago was similar to this one!

    Might I suggest something quick and easy (also light) to build for your first boat?
    It seems to me you need a design that can be built without a table saw, band saw, planer and so forth.

    Might I ask what tools you do have? I'm going to present designs that can be built with just a circular saw plus misc. hand tools.

    This is the Bolger designed Pirogue -





    It is a long, narrow, flat-bottomed semi-decked boat designed for sail, paddle and oar. A poor mans sailing canoe, perfect for adventure.

    It has plenty of room to sleep right in the boat. A tent cpuld be made to cover the cockpit easily enough, making her into a fine mini-cruiser. It is made from four sheets of plywood and in theory can weigh as little as 85 pounds, but most wind up 100 pounds or even a little more. People do get carried away with the wood work sometimes.

    Here is one example.
    https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00...ogue/index.htm

    Plans are here-
    http://common-sense-boats.com//pirogue.html

    Philip Bplger designed many simple, easily built "Instant Boats". Some can be found here -

    https://www.instantboats.com/shop/

    Lets start with the Teal, with needs only two sheets of ply to make. It's quite light and a great "first" boat.




  17. #52
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    The 14 foot June Bug is also quite light -




    But you get the idea.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    Turning to the designer Jim Michalak I think I'd recommend his Piccup Pram.

    This was to be the best boat that could be carried in the back of a pickup truck.
    It is supposed to weigh in at 90 pounds, has dry storage / flotation compartments fore and aft, a clear cockpit long enough to sleep in, and a multi-chine hull that handles chop pretty good.

    It's pretty capable for such a small boat and a popular design. It's one of his better designs, I think.
    It uses "stitch-and glue" construction. Plans are only 25 dollars.



    https://duckworks.com/piccup-pram-plans/

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    This is the second boat I built. The "200 dollar" version of the Bolger Featherwind.
    It's pretty big at 16 feet, but only about 100 pounds (depending upon how fancy you get!).

    It is the biggest boat I know of that can be easily carried on top of a car. It uses the same sail as the Sunfish, and boat you already know.
    Unlike the Sunfish, this boat never capsizes, and can carry four adults! They will out sail Sunfish using the very same sail, while the occupants stay dry and comfortable.

    All the materials needed to make the boat ( four sheets of good plywood, some good 2x4 or 2x6's, one sheet of 2" foam for flotation) -

    SAM_6331S.jpg

    The sides cut out -

    SAM_6354S.jpg

    All the parts -

    SAM_6378.jpg

    Assembly started, looks like a boat!

    SAM_6390S.jpg

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Choice Paralysis: First time builder trying to choose plans within constraints

    As you can see, I built her outside. Took me about two weeks. A circular saw with a ripping guide is the fanciest tool needed. No epoxy needed. I can't imagine building anything more complex than this in a parking space outside.

    Putting the bottom on -

    SAM_6408S.jpg

    On the water!

    SAM_7241S.jpg

    It is a big boat but light enough to handle on a dolly or cart behind a bicycle. It's a terrific boat in the water, uses a rig you already know how to handle, will not break the bank and you can finish it quickly.

    Here is one with a Sunfish sail -



    https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/01...wind/index.htm

    Here is a thread telling about my boat and where to buy plans for 30 dollars, if you wish.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ht=featherwind

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