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Thread: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Thank you all who are offering to participate on a commission. As a long term project manager I can only imagine trying to coordinate everyone's idea of the perfect solar boat, then work with a designer to turn that into a design all are happy with . I hope no one is offended, but let's wait a while to see what Harry Bryan says then go from there if a new design is really needed. I was really kidding about chipping in, if I do go that route the plans would be made available for purchase from the designer.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Timo_N62.9_E27.7 View Post
    Attachment 95563

    This is an easily driven electric powered boat. Not solar though but might be adaptable.

    http://www.elwood.fi
    Interesting styling. I see the models start at 55k euros, a bit over my budget but I wish them success.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    If you started with some sort of felucca or gozzo style boat, and maybe added a removable “Monterey boat” style cabin... Well, that might appeal to a certain type of person.

    Plenty of cockpit room, and some sort of hard awning with solar panels on it would look just fine, to the same type person, I imagine.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Maybe Tom Lathrop would be interested in designing a Blue Jacket 20?
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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  5. #75
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    If you started with some sort of felucca or gozzo style boat, and maybe added a removable “Monterey boat” style cabin... Well, that might appeal to a certain type of person.

    Plenty of cockpit room, and some sort of hard awning with solar panels on it would look just fine, to the same type person, I imagine.
    I do like the Monterey boats, appropriate looking for the location too. That style with some kind of easily driven underwater profile would be cool, not sure if the felucca is right but maybe.


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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    I do like the Monterey boats, appropriate looking for the location too. That style with some kind of easily driven underwater profile would be cool, not sure if the felucca is right but maybe.

    Well, I called it a felucca to avoid calling it the other, ugly name.

    But, oh, man, wouldn’t it be lovely? We ALWAYS go visit those little gems. Something like that blue and white number closest to us would be dreamy up the Delta.

    As would an infinite number of other options.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Maybe Tom Lathrop would be interested in designing a Blue Jacket 20?
    Another great looking design, but these are also planing hulls I think. I keep running into this issue, the displacement hull boats are usually heavy, often intended for inboard diesel. The lighter boats for outboards have planing hulls. Even the Handy Billy can be powered up to plane, not a fully optimized displacement hull.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Well, I called it a felucca to avoid calling it the other, ugly name.

    But, oh, man, wouldn’t it be lovely? We ALWAYS go visit those little gems. Something like that blue and white number closest to us would be dreamy up the Delta.

    As would an infinite number of other options.
    When I built the Walkabout as a row cruiser it was an easy choice. The Angus Row-Cruiser was not out yet, Walkabout just seemed fit for purpose as John Welsford says, and it has turned out to be. This time it is much harder to find the right design, many possible ways to go. No rush yet, still gotta work....

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    You could probably get a good approximation of the number for the Walkabout by adjusting it until the predicted curve matches your measured curve.
    OK, I tried that. When I calculated the new constant to match the data at 4 kts, the new number is 0.384 (for units kts, feet, lbs, Watts). The calculation still does not show the steep rise in power just above 4 kts, but it fits the other measurements better.

    So scaling up the same hull shape to 22 feet and 2000 lb, I get the green curve. It sort of makes sense, the displacement has gone up but the speed to length ratio is less. I seems to show that a big Walkabout could do 5 kts at just over 400 W, not sure I believe that. I need a naval architect at this point .

    Last edited by rgthom; 09-24-2021 at 02:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    That change in power after 4kts is weird. Maybe something to do with the motor controller? Or cavitation? It seems to indicate that somewhere around 4.25 kts is the max speed for the hull regardless of power but that is certainly not true.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    That change in power after 4kts is weird. Maybe something to do with the motor controller? Or cavitation? It seems to indicate that somewhere around 4.25 kts is the max speed for the hull regardless of power but that is certainly not true.
    The data was taken when max motor power was 220 W. I put in an upgrade to 250 W and saw it had no effect on top speed (measured power did go to 250 W). I just assumed it was hull speed limit, but the Gerr equation shows that increasing as speed cubed and my data is steeper. It could be cavitation, now you mention it.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Headwinds could be a major problem for keeping any kind of schedule in this boat. Keep in mind, 40 miles a day at 4 knots is something like a 10-hour day without any headwinds or uncooperative currents. You might try something long and narrow, like some of the older Chesapeake deadrise designs. Take a look in Sucher's Simplified Boatbuilding, the V-bottomed boat.

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    The Bolger Bantam fits the bill. Skinny hull, gobs of room for panels.

    Final-s.jpg
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Headwinds could be a major problem for keeping any kind of schedule in this boat. Keep in mind, 40 miles a day at 4 knots is something like a 10-hour day without any headwinds or uncooperative currents. You might try something long and narrow, like some of the older Chesapeake deadrise designs. Take a look in Sucher's Simplified Boatbuilding, the V-bottomed boat.
    Thanks, yes, wind will be a big issue especially on the Delta. I am not counting on making 40 miles every day, with the solar Walkabout I still plan for the winds and the tidal currents as when planning rowing trips. The little EP carry motor has impressed me with the ability to punch into 25 kt headwinds, but with a bigger boat and added cabin windage may be the biggest issue.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    The Bolger Bantam fits the bill. Skinny hull, gobs of room for panels.

    Final-s.jpg
    Hmm, a trimaran. Thanks for the suggestion. Functional for sure like many Bolger boats and I bet it does work well for solar. Not very catchy on the looks, I'm afraid.


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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Headwinds could be a major problem for keeping any kind of schedule in this boat. Keep in mind, 40 miles a day at 4 knots is something like a 10-hour day without any headwinds or uncooperative currents. You might try something long and narrow, like some of the older Chesapeake deadrise designs. Take a look in Sucher's Simplified Boatbuilding, the V-bottomed boat.
    I think someone already mentioned this: why not a motorsailor? Sail is the most traditional way of harnessing solar power. Nothing fancy, just a modest sail area to take some power out of the wind while using the electric as well.

    My main propulsion is the sails but occasionally when the wind is really unfavourable and there is limited space I use "power beating" to get to my destination. A little bit of power from both systems.

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    I am surprised nobody has mentioned the one for free in London. Another Bolger design, round bilged and fan tailed, so very 'river boat' and that one was for an electric outboard with panels on the roof... Bout two weeks ago?
    OK, a bit far to fetch, but the design looked nice.

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    As johnw suggested, you might try a narrow deadrise design. Atkin Easy Goer perhaps? Not very much interior space, but pretty simple to build, easy to propel and could be lightweight too if built of plywood. Designed for an inboard motor, but you could easily attach an electric motor to the stern. A hard awning with solar panels could be added, too.

    http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Utilities/EasyGoer.html

    EasyGoer-1.gif
    EasyGoer-2.gif

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Timo_N62.9_E27.7 View Post
    I think someone already mentioned this: why not a motorsailor? Sail is the most traditional way of harnessing solar power. Nothing fancy, just a modest sail area to take some power out of the wind while using the electric as well.

    My main propulsion is the sails but occasionally when the wind is really unfavourable and there is limited space I use "power beating" to get to my destination. A little bit of power from both systems.
    Chris mentioned a motorsailer earlier. It's just not very practical on my local waters, mostly narrow, shallow, winding sloughs. Mast and sail would cast shadows on the solar, and there are low bridges in the Delta, so the rig would have to drop easily and be stowed somewhere. A rudder and some kind of lateral board would be needed, adding depth and catching weeds. I need to keep this thing simple, motor plus battery plus solar is going to be tricky enough to make work.

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian View Post
    As johnw suggested, you might try a narrow deadrise design. Atkin Easy Goer perhaps? Not very much interior space, but pretty simple to build, easy to propel and could be lightweight too if built of plywood. Designed for an inboard motor, but you could easily attach an electric motor to the stern. A hard awning with solar panels could be added, too.

    http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Utilities/EasyGoer.html

    EasyGoer-1.gif
    EasyGoer-2.gif
    Tim had mentioned looking at Atkin designs earlier. Some of the open boats look possible, including Easy Goer as you say, but this boat was designed to go 12 mph with a 300 lb inboard. I want to go 4 kts with a lightweight outboard, add a cabin, and put up a big solar roof. I would call those significant changes, considering this warning on the Atkin plan site:

    Please Do Not stray from the plans and modify your Atkin boat. If you cannot resist the urge to second guess John or William Atkin you do so at your own risk

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet


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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet


  23. #93
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    That's great, how much to finish up the plans?
    The skipper looks worried....

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    A strip planked fantail was not what I was planning, but if it was over here that would make a fantastic solar electric.

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    I was eyeballing this one yesterday...
    http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Utilit...antFaunce.html

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    That's great, how much to finish up the plans?
    The skipper looks worried....
    Hahaha. Ambivalent, at least.

    As to plans? The drawing is the easy part. All that math and stuff makes my head hurt.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Given the required optimisation for low speed there might be some merit in looking at small cruiser/launch designs for speed restricted waterways like the Thames and the Broads?

    A suggestion from leftfield might be a Thames slipper launch hull - designed to run at low speeds, usually with quite small and light petrol engines and with some intriguing possibilities for deck-mounted solar panels. Might be quite evil handling if waves pick up though? Selway Fisher have a few lightweight designs that have already gone electric.



    Just trying to throw a few ideas in from the sidelines but really the track you are already investigating seems pretty spot on.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Lots of good food for thought. I’m thinking Doug H’s Point Comfort 23 would provide the good ‘bones’ for what you’re looking for. While able to use a larger ICE outboard, she’d do pretty good at your desired 5 knots as well. Already designed for an outboard, right weight (and able to carry more, as needed). Favorable L/B ratio for efficiency. Traditional aesthetics and best of all, a shallow V hull with a non-pounding forefoot. Ideal for working your way back downstream when the Bay Area winds start sneaking up the Delta. The basic design allows all kinds of creativity with cabin, hardtop, cockpit layouts.

    https://www.dhylanboats.com/design/p...mfort23_plans/

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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    Given the required optimisation for low speed there might be some merit in looking at small cruiser/launch designs for speed restricted waterways like the Thames and the Broads?

    A suggestion from leftfield might be a Thames slipper launch hull - designed to run at low speeds, usually with quite small and light petrol engines and with some intriguing possibilities for deck-mounted solar panels. Might be quite evil handling if waves pick up though? Selway Fisher have a few lightweight designs that have already gone electric.



    Just trying to throw a few ideas in from the sidelines but really the track you are already investigating seems pretty spot on.
    I appreciate the left field ideas. If I move to London a slipper launch would be wonderful, but on the choppy Delta maybe not so much.

    I hope John Kohnen does not mind, but he just posted Flickr photos from the Toledo Messabout and this steam launch caught my attention:


  30. #100
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Rick, did you see this launch project in Eureka posted to the WBF Facebook group?

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/4592...7874253481386/

    Inboard and maybe too large but still interesting.
    - Chris

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  31. #101
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    I can see how this is a job best handled by an NA but I’m also of the group that thinks looking back to the earliest power boats is a fruitful starting place . There’s a lot of experience and expertise in those . Looking at these ,and your requirements, maybe you'll have to increase your max acceptable length and / or decrease your acceptable beam? If you’re willing to do both, John Gartner shows the Hammond Power Dory : 26 ft loa with beam of 5ft.10 . The boat originally had a 6 horse engine ,but you would build lighter ; go slower and I think carry less than a fishing boat with crew gear and catch . There's a lines drawing in his book More Building Classic Small Craft . The boat is round sided with a narrow flat bottom ,17 inches wide at the midpoint and fairing to zero for and aft .This imposes a presumably measurable decrease in efficiency but allows the boat to: beach or ground out relatively upright ; draw less water ; and be “exceptionally easy to plank “ ( this last is a comment by Gardner) . He says also that the boat is “exceptionally economical of power ” .

    The boat originally appeared in an article Gardner wrote for The Maine Coast Fisherman in1955 , the first in a series on "Low Cost Power and Easy Driven Hulls". I believe the Mystic seaport Library has these on Microfiche .

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryfeet View Post
    Lots of good food for thought. I’m thinking Doug H’s Point Comfort 23 would provide the good ‘bones’ for what you’re looking for. While able to use a larger ICE outboard, she’d do pretty good at your desired 5 knots as well. Already designed for an outboard, right weight (and able to carry more, as needed). Favorable L/B ratio for efficiency. Traditional aesthetics and best of all, a shallow V hull with a non-pounding forefoot. Ideal for working your way back downstream when the Bay Area winds start sneaking up the Delta. The basic design allows all kinds of creativity with cabin, hardtop, cockpit layouts.

    https://www.dhylanboats.com/design/p...mfort23_plans/
    Thanks. I was just talking to forum member Tom Kremer at the TSCA campout, he also recommended a Point Comfort, maybe stretching the 18. I took another look at Hylan's designs:

    The Point Comfort 23 is heavier than I was hoping, listed hull weight is 1500 lbs as it is built from 3/4" ply. There was one built lighter as an electric launch, called AUK: https://www.dhylanboats.com/auk-pc23-electric/
    This version claims full displacement at 1700 lbs, with a solar roof. As built, the AUK uses much more power than I am planning, a 10 kW Torqeedo to drive it at 16 mph (clearly planing). The solar roof is for multi-day slow recharge. Maybe it works at lower power, but pictures of the boat show a wide transom at least partly submerged, not optimal for low drag displacement.

    The Point Comfort 18 is much lighter, 350 lb hull weight. Size is under my original limits at 18 feet by 5' 5", maybe it could be stretched. This version also shows a partly submerged transom.

    So now I noticed this one, WICOMICO: https://www.dhylanboats.com/design/plans/wicomico/
    Hylan says it is based on the Point Comfort, but as a round sterned traditional look. Length is 25 feet and displacement listed at 2000 lb. There are two versions, a semi-displacement with immersed stern, and a full displacement one with lifted stern:



    This is also inboard, not outboard. What I want is a hybrid, the length of the PC23 but lighter build like the 18 and with an outboard on a transom but lifted stern like the WICOMICO. I will try contacting Doug Hylan to see if he has any advice.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Rick, did you see this launch project in Eureka posted to the WBF Facebook group?

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/4592...7874253481386/

    Inboard and maybe too large but still interesting.
    I had not but just messaged Mr. Keasey. Thanks for that!

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Perkins View Post
    I can see how this is a job best handled by an NA but I’m also of the group that thinks looking back to the earliest power boats is a fruitful starting place . There’s a lot of experience and expertise in those . Looking at these ,and your requirements, maybe you'll have to increase your max acceptable length and / or decrease your acceptable beam? If you’re willing to do both, John Gartner shows the Hammond Power Dory : 26 ft loa with beam of 5ft.10 . The boat originally had a 6 horse engine ,but you would build lighter ; go slower and I think carry less than a fishing boat with crew gear and catch . There's a lines drawing in his book More Building Classic Small Craft . The boat is round sided with a narrow flat bottom ,17 inches wide at the midpoint and fairing to zero for and aft .This imposes a presumably measurable decrease in efficiency but allows the boat to: beach or ground out relatively upright ; draw less water ; and be “exceptionally easy to plank “ ( this last is a comment by Gardner) . He says also that the boat is “exceptionally economical of power ” .

    The boat originally appeared in an article Gardner wrote for The Maine Coast Fisherman in1955 , the first in a series on "Low Cost Power and Easy Driven Hulls". I believe the Mystic seaport Library has these on Microfiche .
    Oh my, if this is the design you mean I would want one just like this, motor and all.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Displacement designs for solar electric river cruiser, 20 - 25 feet

    Have you thought of building an Alden Indian hull? I believe it's been done in lapstrake plywood, it's easily driven and it's about the right size. Our Sponsor sells the plans.

    https://www.woodenboatstore.com/coll...1-indian-class

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