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Thread: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

  1. #1
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    Default The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Ms Ocasio-Cortez is right. Chait describes something I've been attempting to point out for a good long time now. (Source, with lots of links)

    No, the Richest One Percent Don’t Pay 40 Percent of the Taxes.
    By Jonathan Chait

    One of the sad constants of American political debate is that, anytime the tax rate on the rich is to be either raised or lowered, Republicans will repeat a certain statistic. To wit, “The Stat” is that the highest-earning one percent of taxpayers pay 40 percent of all income taxes. Conservatives consider this fact a dispositive justification either against any proposal to increase taxes on the rich, or in favor of any plan to reduce it. Over just the past day, I have seen it circulating — here, here, here, everywhere. It is a figure that has been repeated a million times on Fox News diatribes and in College Republican lectures sponsored by aging billionaires. It is one of the handful of debate-enders, like “Ronald Reagan defeated communism” or “gun controls don’t stop crime,” that any good Republican apparatchik has at his fingertips.

    The Stat is literally true. But it is deeply misleading — so misleading, in fact, that it routinely fools even the people who are citing it into thinking it indicates something other than what it actually means. The first problem with The Stat is that it makes no reference to the proportion of income the rich earn. The juxtaposition between one percent and 40 percent is meant to convey the idea that a small number of people are carrying a gigantic and disproportionate burden, but the figure lacks any context when it omits how much money they earn in the first place.

    Indeed, it turns the fact that rich people account for a massive share of the income pool into a reason to see them as mistreated. One common move for polemicists brandishing this figure is to note that the share of taxes paid by the rich is “up sharply” over the past couple decades — which it is, on account of rich people claiming a larger share of the national income. The logic implied by The Stat is that the bigger the proportion of income earned by the richest one percent, the more imperative it is to reduce their tax rates, so that they don’t pay too high a share of the tax burden.

    Second, and worse still, The Stat ignores the fact that income taxes are just one component of the federal tax system, and federal taxes are just one component of the total tax system. The federal tax system is far more progressive than state and local taxes, which rely heavily on regressive burdens like sales taxes. (It’s harder to impose progressives taxes at the state or local level, since rich people moving to a different town or state is relatively easy, while leaving the country is more burdensome.)

    What’s more, even within the federal tax system, income taxes are just one, relatively progressive, component. For most workers, the biggest tax they pay isn’t income tax but payroll tax, the line marked “FICA” on your pay stub, which finances Social Security and most of Medicare. That tax is regressive and only applies to the first $137,000 of income. The trick of describing only the share of income taxes paid by the richest one percent is to make people think it means all taxes. Even professional movement conservatives make this mistake. Here’s Jay Nordlinger:

    Jay Nordlinger @jaynordlinger
    All my life, I've heard, "Tax the rich!" Some people even put it on dresses. According to the latest data, the top 1 percent of earners in America pay 40.1 percent of federal taxes; the bottom 90 percent pay 28.6 percent. Come on. If you want more revenue -- look to the "middle."
    9:53 PM Sep 13, 2021

    Another right-wing column published the other day makes the same error, first using the “income tax” qualifier, then slipping out of it to assert, falsely, “the top 1% paid more in taxes in 2018 than the bottom 90%” — an extremely common error by conservatives. Republican politicians, including George W. Bush, have made the same error. The Stat is technically limited to income taxes for a reason — it’s describing a narrow category of taxation that is especially progressive. But it only works because it makes the listener believe it describes all taxes. The trick works so well it fools the people repeating the stat.

    The actual truth about the American tax system is that it is slightly progressive. The richest one percent earn about 21 percent of the income and pay 24 percent of the taxes:



    Nordlinger helpfully summarizes the conservative notion that the rich are taxed to the limit and cannot pay any more. Of course, we have plenty of recent experience with taxing rich people at higher levels. Restoring the Clinton-era top tax rate of 39.6 percent obviously did not stop the rapid growth seen under Clinton. The Trump tax cuts for business owners and heirs to large fortunes were supposed to encourage more business investment but clearly failed to do so. There are gaping loopholes in the tax code for the wealthy that allow massive fortunes to escape any taxation at all.

    A great deal of evidence supports the notion that the tax system could increase the burden on the very rich with little or no economic drag. That idea also happens to be extremely popular. Because it is popular, conservatives feel special urgency to insist it cannot be done. But it can.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  2. #2
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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    One more time:

    The top 10% could pay off the National Debt and STILL BE the top 10%.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Indeed it is.

    AND it is the single most important policy move we could make.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    How often have I posted that those with 90% of the money should be paying 90% of the taxes?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Not that I disagree with anything said above:

    The problem becomes, how do you structure taxes to tax wealth, not income.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    How often have I posted that those with 90% of the money should be paying 90% of the taxes?
    I haven't kept track. HOW many? <G>
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Not that I disagree with anything said above:

    The problem becomes, how do you structure taxes to tax wealth, not income.
    Property taxes are nothing new.

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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Not that I disagree with anything said above:

    The problem becomes, how do you structure taxes to tax wealth, not income.
    Not a problem. The numbers crunchers can tailor a tax plan to meet any parameters & priorities you wish.

    Or are you asking about the politics? A very different question. How does one SELL such a plan depends on good pr, good politicians committed, a push from the public, patience & determination, and the perspicacity to seize the moment and PUSH when the aperture occurs.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Property taxes are nothing new.
    Depends on what is defined as "property" for the purposes of taxation.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Not a problem. The numbers crunchers can tailor a tax plan to meet any parameters & priorities you wish.

    Or are you asking about the politics? A very different question. How does one SELL such a plan depends on good pr, good politicians committed, a push from the public, patience & determination, and the perspicacity to seize the moment and PUSH when the aperture occurs.
    The funny thing about the politics is that those who don't have the assets stand up and scream about the taxation of those who have obscene amounts of assets. They always imagine themselves to be either better off than they actually are, financially, or imagine themselves to be future billionaires.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  12. #12
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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    The funny thing about the politics is that those who don't have the assets stand up and scream about the taxation of those who have obscene amounts of assets. They always imagine themselves to be either better off than they actually are, financially, or imagine themselves to be future billionaires.
    OK... yet another issue. We've talked about it some around here already. But I can offer one new resource. I'm finally getting around to reading an acclaimed early book on behavioral economics --

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational

    Excellent, and about far more than that branch of economics. AND goes a fair way toward answering that question.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  13. #13
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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Depends on what is defined as "property" for the purposes of taxation.
    Precisely.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Personally, I'm in favor of the idea that if you have tangible wealth that is greater than $100 million, tax 25% of any amount over $100 million. Every year.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Ms Ocasio-Cortez is right. Chait describes something I've been attempting to point out for a good long time now.
    They missed the big lie when pointing out the small lie. Changes in wealth - to be read "increases", for the rich are much larger than the income shown on tax returns. And changes in wealth while effectively income are not taxed unless one wants them taxed.

    Wealth increased by about $13 trillion last year. And will continue on that path forever. The change in wealth provides a solution to our economic problems. But there are too many in the 80-99th percentiles who make a claim that they are suffering more than they want. The 1% have a lot of support. Support from large donors to political parties.

    I have a problem with the chart in the original post. The top quintile has 61% of "total income". The next quintile has only 25%. Something that is not obvious from the presentation.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Who's her friend? Dayum! Sorry- taxes..... got nuthin JayInOz

  17. #17
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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    That's Aurora James, who designed the dress.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    And here is how the right views AOC and her dress:

    j2b29f4y8on71.jpg

    Maybe I can't think like they do, but I do not get it.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Well trolled, AOC!
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Not a problem. The numbers crunchers can tailor a tax plan to meet any parameters & priorities you wish.

    Or are you asking about the politics? A very different question. How does one SELL such a plan depends on good pr, good politicians committed, a push from the public, patience & determination, and the perspicacity to seize the moment and PUSH when the aperture occurs.
    This, I believe, is Manchin's dilemma. These bills poll very well in his state. The people want them. His big donors do not, as their taxes will go up.

    Does he side with his donors or his voters?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    I still wonder if we began income taxes after the first $25k and taxed ALL income above that at a flat rate, what would that rate have to be to finance our country?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    This, I believe, is Manchin's dilemma. These bills poll very well in his state. The people want them. His big donors do not, as their taxes will go up.

    Does he side with his donors or his voters?
    I think you've nailed his dilemma precisely. My guess is that he will show himself as a lady of negotiable virtue, and side with his donors.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I still wonder if we began income taxes after the first $25k and taxed ALL income above that at a flat rate, what would that rate have to be to finance our country?
    Please stop.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  23. #23
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    Default Re: The Slogan on Her Dress is Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    The funny thing about the politics is that those who don't have the assets stand up and scream about the taxation of those who have obscene amounts of assets. They always imagine themselves to be either better off than they actually are, financially, or imagine themselves to be future billionaires.
    Some people see the future better than others. It is easy to do the math and see that in 60 years there could be 5-10 million billionaires in the US.

    Certainly some will be satisfied changing their behavior with much less, but many will continue on and be subject to taxes on their assets. Those who are satisfied with less have good reason to be concerned with taxes.
    Last edited by Too Little Time; 09-17-2021 at 08:04 PM.
    Life is complex.

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