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Thread: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

  1. #36
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    According to our Defence and Foreign Affairs ministers wea are going to host** long range missiles and undersea drone torpedoes along with the subs, and become a US/Brit base for more troops, planes and ordinance storage. Reducing Australias soverign actions capability and making us a prime target for China and the likely target for a first strike just short of attacking the US/European mainlandand declaring WW3.
    And does anyone for one minute imagine Australia will be allowed actual independent controll over these 'assetts'?

    ** US missiles so it seems.

    you get nuked first? Sounds like a blessing.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    So I read the wikipedia about the French subs. They are conventional drive boats from hulls designed for nuclear drive.

    Could Australia have given the French an option to build the nuclear model, instead of outright cancellation at practically no notice, it seems?

    Do non-proliferation policies stop France from selling nuclear technology, but USA and UK are allowed to do so?

    I will not be interested any our-kit-is-way-better replies.
    A l'eau! C'est l'heure!

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    If we end up at war with China- which is always an uncomfortable possibility- France won't be any help to us. Without help from the US and to a lesser degree the UK, we're toast- or rice crispies or something. This sub contract is a reward to our bestest buddies for their guaranteed support. I think I read somewhere that the French subs were already a decade late and ten billion over budget. JayInOz

  4. #39
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Agreed Jay, but most designs will be obsolete long before they ar launched

  5. #40
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Isn’t the point the rather simple one that Australia’s defences should start well to the North, and should probably take in Indonesia, given that the only plausible enemy is no friend of Indonesia?

    Once that big decision has been taken, nuclear submarines, with their far greater range, select themselves.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  6. #41
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    The USA was isolationist in the past and could well return to that status in the future. The French have a well defined interest in the Pacific. Wouldn’t it be interesting if they pivoted towards China? Just a thought.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

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  7. #42
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Well China appear to be royally pizzed off with us right now with sabre rattling and veiled threats, so at least they're predictable. Indonesia is pretty much reliant on Chinese vaccines at the moment so they're caught between Scylla and Charybdis (a rock and a hard place). Probably only right that China is helping them out- it's their virus after all. JayInOz

  8. #43
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by bucheron View Post
    So I read the wikipedia about the French subs. They are conventional drive boats from hulls designed for nuclear drive.

    Could Australia have given the French an option to build the nuclear model, instead of outright cancellation at practically no notice, it seems?

    Do non-proliferation policies stop France from selling nuclear technology, but USA and UK are allowed to do so?

    I will not be interested any our-kit-is-way-better replies.
    Non-proliferation is about weapons, not power generation.

    It looks as though this deal is about a lot more than just some submarines.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #44
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Surely the aussies would prefer a coal fired sub

  10. #45
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Well it is a wooden boat forum.......

    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  11. #46
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Jay has got it spot on.

    it's amazing there is such a disconnect between navies. I'd have thought the French would have been in the same technology club as the USA and The UK. Feels like Australia is taking a pivot away from Europe along with Boris.
    While Europe battles the climate and dependence on fossil fuels from Russia and the Middle East. Australia helps the Americans tackle China, and Boris gets a wilted Brexit feather in his cap.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    Well it is a wooden boat forum.......

    This one is wooden and more boaty
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #48
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Non-proliferation is about weapons, not power generation.

    It looks as though this deal is about a lot more than just some submarines.
    It's about the conservatives RW through a trumpiss PM wedging the left by making Imperial decisions that have damaged what was left of Australian soverignty to the US King.
    We will become the fall guy for the US and China to play their games without their own national consequences. As for the subs, 40 years. and our 'alternative government' will now be stuck with it. Our PM has personally stabbed the nation in the back.
    I'm even more glad I decided no kids way back in 1954

  14. #49
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Non-proliferation is about weapons, not power generation.

    It looks as though this deal is about a lot more than just some submarines.
    I'm surprised at how this transpired - it appears ham-handed, on both parties part. Why? Why pi$$ off the French?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  16. #51
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Why pi$$ off the French?
    the french are major global players in the defense industry

    also unlike most of nato, they use almost no american made equipment - no small arms, no aircraft, no tanks or other ground vehicles

    the french are major competitors of ours and they don't always play fair, as such they are fair game

    in the end this had less to do with the french than with the chinese
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Any 'details' on how this PO the Chinese?

    And despite the competition - was this worth angering an allie?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  18. #53
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post

    And despite the competition - was this worth angering an allie?
    what are they gonna do? turn to russia? china?

    let me give you an example of the burden we carry with our nato allies, recall a few years ago when the french and brits, and canadians intervened in libya - two failures became immediately evident and it drew the united states into the coalition

    first, nato can't efficiently coordinate air attacks without the management of the united states
    secondly, the french ran out of bombs in their 'ready inventory', in less than three days! wtf!!!
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Well, then - screw'em if that can't help us bomb!

    I wit ya.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  20. #55
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Jay has got it spot on.

    it's amazing there is such a disconnect between navies. I'd have thought the French would have been in the same technology club as the USA and The UK. Feels like Australia is taking a pivot away from Europe along with Boris.
    While Europe battles the climate and dependence on fossil fuels from Russia and the Middle East. Australia helps the Americans tackle China, and Boris gets a wilted Brexit feather in his cap.
    france wasn’t willing to sell you nuke subs, just that weirdo diesel thing. After running late and over budget on th weirdo diesel sub, you asked the uk about getting a nuke sub, the uk said “talk to the us too” and here we are.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    france wasn’t willing to sell you nuke subs, just that weirdo diesel thing. After running late and over budget on th weirdo diesel sub, you asked the uk about getting a nuke sub, the uk said “talk to the us too” and here we are.
    Weirdo kind of depends on which prototype they were re-engineering.
    Their older Rubis class is about the same size as the Upholder/Victoria diesel-electric boats.
    Rubis/Amethyst:
    General characteristics
    Type Nuclear attack submarine
    Displacement
    • 2,400 t (2,400 long tons) (surfaced)
    • 2,600 t (2,600 long tons) (submerged)
    Length 73.6 m (241 ft 6 in)
    Beam 7.6 m (24 ft 11 in)
    Draught 6.4 m (21 ft 0 in)
    Propulsion
    • Pressurised water CAS-48 nuclear reactor (48 MW)
    • 2 propulsion turbo generators (2 x 3,150 kW)
    • 1 electric motor (8,448 shp); 1 shaft
    • 1 auxiliary diesel generator SEMT Pielstick 8PA4V185SM (450 kW)
    Speed 25 knots (46 km/h; 29 mph)

    Upholder/Victoria:
    General characteristics
    Type Diesel-electric submarine (Hunter Killer SSK)
    Displacement 2,455 t (2,416 long tons)
    Length 70.26 m (230 ft 6 in)
    Beam 7.2 m (23 ft 7 in)
    Draught 7.6 m (24 ft 11 in)
    Propulsion
    Speed
    • 12 knots (22 km/h; 14 mph) (surface)
    • 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph)+ (submerged)
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  22. #57
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    The French Government is really annoyed.

    Le Gouvernement Franηais est vraiment fβchι.

    L’on retire les Ambassadeurs Franηais aux Ιtats-Unis et au Australia
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  23. #58
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Here we go. Cold War 2.

    I think we will win, again, but it will take a while. And a lot of money.
    Arms industry will win. I don’t think this will benefit Australia but it will make nuke subs more popular. Australia is our new Navy base?

  24. #59
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Not just NAVY LeeG. Troops, aircraft including bombers, equipment, munitions including long range missiles.
    We are now, unofficially, a non-represented colony of the United States. More particularly of your military. The matter of nuke armed ships in our ports has not been mentioned.
    And as for the subs, 40 years before the first, obsolete Nuke sub is built, if we are lucky as no contracts, design or anything else is in place. and in the mean time we have a few 40 year old propped up diesel subs to keep in service somehow.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 09-18-2021 at 09:45 PM.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Not just NAVY LeeG. Troops, aircraft including bombers, equipment, munitions including long range missiles.
    We are now, unofficially, a non-represented colony of the United States. More particularly of your military.
    And as for the subs, 40 years before the first, obsolete Nuke sub arrives if we are lucky as no contracts, design or anything else is in place. and in the mean time we have a few 40 year old propped up diesel subs to keep in service somehow.

    its been thus for quite awhile

    when was the last time we said jump that y'all didnt???
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    the following post is my troll of the week and is only very slightly fueled by mezcal

    --> i kinda wish big fella could post his thoughts on this whole submarine deal here
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    I think when you invaded Hati………..

  28. #63
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    we asked for your help in haiti?

    seriously??

    and y'all said no???
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Weirdo kind of depends on which prototype they were re-engineering.
    Their older Rubis class is about the same size as the Upholder/Victoria diesel-electric boats.
    Rubis/Amethyst:
    General characteristics
    Type Nuclear attack submarine
    Displacement
    • 2,400 t (2,400 long tons) (surfaced)
    • 2,600 t (2,600 long tons) (submerged)
    Length 73.6 m (241 ft 6 in)
    Beam 7.6 m (24 ft 11 in)
    Draught 6.4 m (21 ft 0 in)
    Propulsion
    • Pressurised water CAS-48 nuclear reactor (48 MW)
    • 2 propulsion turbo generators (2 x 3,150 kW)
    • 1 electric motor (8,448 shp); 1 shaft
    • 1 auxiliary diesel generator SEMT Pielstick 8PA4V185SM (450 kW)
    Speed 25 knots (46 km/h; 29 mph)

    Upholder/Victoria:
    General characteristics
    Type Diesel-electric submarine (Hunter Killer SSK)
    Displacement 2,455 t (2,416 long tons)
    Length 70.26 m (230 ft 6 in)
    Beam 7.2 m (23 ft 7 in)
    Draught 7.6 m (24 ft 11 in)
    Propulsion
    Speed
    • 12 knots (22 km/h; 14 mph) (surface)
    • 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph)+ (submerged)
    it was a reengineer of the nuclear suffren Class, 97m >4000T. Turning a nuclear sub into a diesel is expensive, and stupid.

    oz Is the ass end of nowhere, nuke powered subs make sense. Maybe Canada will pull their head out of their ass and ask next.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    the following post is my troll of the week and is only very slightly fueled by mezcal

    --> i kinda wish big fella could post his thoughts on this whole submarine deal here
    Really? Really? REALLY??????

  31. #66
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Really? Really? REALLY??????
    since y'all ran aquinas and ian off, truly who has represented the aussie right on this forum?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    ...
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    A bit of an odd post. I have no time for Boris the Buffoon, but the statement that we will collaborate with the design of the new Aus boats is not a lie.
    Barrow and my ex employer is a centre of excellence for the design and build of submarines, and our Astute class is faster and cheaper than the US equivalent.
    But will we get them before they are obsolete, and how long will it take to Tool up and train Australian crew and maintenance personnel?
    be modest, and be proud of it.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    But will we get them before they are obsolete, and how long will it take to Tool up and train Australian crew and maintenance personnel?
    Why bother - just crew them with USN personnel. It would save a whole lot of bother, and dramatically shorten the chain of command .

    Pete
    I have one troll on ignore

  35. #70
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    Default Re: French subs out, nuke subs in………….

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Why bother - just crew them with USN personnel. It would save a whole lot of bother, and dramatically shorten the chain of command .

    Pete
    Sure, can we have someone like MacArthur again ?
    be modest, and be proud of it.

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