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Thread: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

  1. #1
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    Default Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Lone Fox is for sale. 65' ketch built in 1957 for Colonel Whitbread. The listing says she needs new decks - which could easily run 200K I'm sure, but she's listed @ $195,000 US!

    https://www.lymanmorse.com/sailing_yacht/lone-fox/

    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    WOW! Hope she finds a good steward.

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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Seems ridiculously cheap.
    Larks

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Wow, yeah. Even if she needs $300k in work she's more than worth it. Wonder why so cheap? Anyone who could afford to keep her and sail her would be in a tax bracket that would make the purchase price irrelevant.
    - Chris

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    OK - so it's not just me. Of course she may need refastening & all sorts of other stuff, but I can't see Lyman-Morse hiding stuff - they have a very good reputation.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    There is no interest in such boats.

    She is too small to impress today’s super rich, she is too big for regular people, so nobody wants her.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    There is no interest in such boats.

    She is too small to impress today’s super rich, she is too big for regular people, so nobody wants her.
    I guess I can see that, but it's hard.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    There is no interest in such boats.

    She is too small to impress today’s super rich, she is too big for regular people, so nobody wants her.

    Andrew you are giving me hope that I might be able to afford Marigold one day - at 59’ she’d be even less impressive to the super rich....
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Garret, I think it would be the perfect upgrade for you!
    Sell that big old boat you have now and buy something even bigger.
    You could put it on Lake Champlain and have bragging rights for the biggest
    sailboat on the lake!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Get thee behind me Rich!
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    There is no interest in such boats.

    She is too small to impress today’s super rich, she is too big for regular people, so nobody wants her.
    Unfortunately, she's still beyond the reach of most of those who understand the value of such yachts and their place in history.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    It’s an awkward size. I know because I’ve got a boat just a bit smaller, which I was able to buy because nobody wanted her. I also have been aware of the lovely Norman Dallimore ketch Blue Trout” ​for many years now.

    https://www.sandemanyachtcompany.co....dan-ketch-1937
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    The idea that some boats are too big and expensive for us for mortal folk, but too small to be interesting to the people who could afford them, is one that I have been thinking about for a while now. The Hand motorsailer "William Hand" is another one like this (https://rockportmarine.com/brokerage...iler-for-sale/). She's been on the market for six or seven years at least. She started out at over $1M and is now down to $800k. I'll bet she goes for much less than that in the end. But it will take deep pockets to keep her in her current condition. The purchase price is just the ante.

    So if the people with the money to maintain these boats aren't interested, what will happen to them? The pattern I am seeing is that big boats are going for very little money to people who have the skills to maintain them once they fall into disrepair. Hecate Ranger (https://www.offcenterharbor.com/drea...restry-vessel/) started on the market at nearly $400k. She eventually sold for $40k after structural issues were found in the survey. Pelican (https://classicyacht.org/boats/pelican) went to a shipwright for under $50k.

    There are plenty of similar examples but the supply of people with the skill to maintain a big wooden boat on a budget is limited, and likely not getting any larger. So I expect that many of these big classic yachts and workboat conversions will fall into decline as soon as they need something major done, like a $200k deck rebuild. If the owner can't afford to have it done and can't do it themselves they will sell the boat for pennies to someone who will just put off the work further, until the boat is too far gone. Not a lot of Leo Sampson Gooldens out there willing or able to rebuild a boat from a bare keel and a few pieces of hardware.
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Chris, I'm afraid you've hit the nail on the head there. And there isn't enough public support to make them into non-profits, like Adventuress.

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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    What's the balance of time vs material cost for something like that 200k decking estimate?

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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Quote Originally Posted by offbelayknife View Post
    What's the balance of time vs material cost for something like that 200k decking estimate?
    The 200K estimate was a complete WAG made by a person who is not a boatbuilder & purposely made high. Unless there is structural damage, I'd guess it'd actually be less than that. Teak is (roughly) $35/board foot. Getting even rougher & figuring the area @ 1/3 the length* beam, that'd be somewhere around 10-12K in wood (there's a lot of waste in a teak deck). Other materials would add some - so call materials 20K. Fitting a teak deck is a lot of work - so maybe 10 weeks for 3-4 people? This I don't know - so it's a totally WAG.

    IOW - 100K for sure - probably more. A real boatbuilder could give more accurate info.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    I think the $200k estimate is low. There is likely $100k just in teak needed there, assuming somewhere around 2000bf at $50/bf after the yard markup. And I'd bet 2000 hours to demo, mill, lay and caulk the deck, minimum. At yard rates I think you are looking at more like $300k-$400k for the deck. And that's not including any repair work that might be needed once the old deck comes up.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    ^^ funny, I see that Garret is an optimist. I went the other way with it entirely!
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    I may well be - but 2000 bd. ft would completely cover a 65x15 rectangular area twice.

    I did caveat my response quite substantially!
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Love the drawer latches in photo #11.
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I may well be - but 2000 bd. ft would completely cover a 65x15 rectangular area twice.

    I did caveat my response quite substantially!
    Ah, I figured on 2" thick decks with a bunch of waste in the milling and then rounded up, which is how I got to 2000bf. But I'm just guessing too. The real answer is probably "if you have to ask..."
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Ah, I figured on 2" thick decks with a bunch of waste in the milling and then rounded up, which is how I got to 2000bf. But I'm just guessing too. The real answer is probably "if you have to ask..."
    Ah - I was figuring non-traditional: lay plywood, glass it, then teak on top.

    I think your final answer is indeed the correct one.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    She doesn’t need new decks.

    You can do as I did to “Mirelle”’s 1937 teak decks and paint them with Coelan. That will give you another twenty years. I know this because I did it and that’s how long it lasted, 100% leak free.

    At the end of that time you can renew the coating and go again.
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Robert Clark, built by Robertson’s of Sandbank, the year before they built the 12 metre “Sceptre”.

    Thats as good as you can get.
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Robert Clark, built by Robertson’s of Sandbank, the year before they built the 12 metre “Sceptre”.

    Thats as good as you can get.
    While most Yanks don't know British yards, you've just given another reason why she's dirt cheap.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    built in 1957
    major refit in 1980 -23 years later
    'restoration' in 1997 -24 years ago

    is she due another major refit?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    While most Yanks don't know British yards, you've just given another reason why she's dirt cheap.
    Robertsons of Sandbank was considered the finest boatbuilding yard in Britain after the closure of Fifes. Camper and Nicholson, Moodys and Priors were close behind, but Robertsons were the best of the best.
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Besides the size, there is one other thing driving her price down, she's composite. While teak does not get iron sick and the planking should still be good, that does not mean that the steel fasteners and framing can't corrode. Dealing with the steel bits is easy enough, but many yards don't want to do it, and the expertise is scarce.
    The interior is also rather plain, wich is another point against her.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Besides the size, there is one other thing driving her price down, she's composite. While teak does not get iron sick and the planking should still be good, that does not mean that the steel fasteners and framing can't corrode. Dealing with the steel bits is easy enough, but many yards don't want to do it, and the expertise is scarce.
    The interior is also rather plain, which is another point against her.
    I missed that she's composite. Is that in the listing?

    Teak does get damaged by iron if the iron rusts enough. I've had to make some interesting repairs in my boat's cabin sides because of iron through-bolts.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Garrett - she’s in the UK edition because, I think, she didn’t move to the States until after publication had ended:






    Worth noting that she was still in class in 1976…
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Thanks!

    I'm surprised that steel was used instead of bronze for such a boat.
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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Yes. If she is teak planked with a teak centreline, things may not be so bad, but if the planking is mahogany…
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I missed that she's composite. Is that in the listing?
    It's all there in the listing if one cares to look, but it's not spelled out. The description says "the Robert Clark teak ketch" and that is immediately a red flag since the usual formula is "teak on oak/elm/etc.". All you have to do then is look at the photos, the interior ones show big metal beams and deck diagonal strapping.
    It's also a size of boat where composite was usual at the time if buildt to class. I have never seen a boat with bronze frames, galvanized steel was normal.
    Teak does get damaged, but it has a much better chance than other planking woods. Replacing it with like is a little bit on the expensive side this days.
    The yachtworld add has more pictures, there you can see rust on the deckbeams and how worn down the deck really is.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Ok, so I take back my assessment of “crazy cheap” and revise it to “free is too expensive”.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Crazy cheap - or a sign of the times?

    Temptress does swoon away. The holders now will be lucky to get 60k and the buyers should beware. The market is weird for the large classic wooden yacht like that. It is the realm of dreamers, retired with tools and the wealthy (who already have their boats). She will break a heart or two more, wallet to match and likely consume some of the best remaining years remaining of ones life. She is best viewed dockside on your way to a more practical girl, one that lends itself to use or speed and not of servitude and eater of precious time. She will make a shipwright widow seek the closer man who has hours for many spare passionate moments over close talk, toast and tea.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 09-18-2021 at 12:33 AM.
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