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Thread: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    Well I started to type something out, but that video is a perfect explanation! Also makes me feel better about choosing a boomless rig down the road. Thanks, Tom!

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    Uncomfortable for kiddos, but the Tancook Schooners are sure traditional.
    Here is an open working schooner "Wawaloon.
    wawaloon-schooner-1953.jpg

    Paul Gartside has a 25 foot version of the Tancook schooner.

    Mike

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanGillnet View Post
    Well I started to type something out, but that video is a perfect explanation! Also makes me feel better about choosing a boomless rig down the road. Thanks, Tom!
    Yep, that video is Tim Cooke in his Ilur (I think). Makes it easy to see how it's done.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    I used to shift the big foresail sheet from side to side racing on log canoes. And on small boats, like the stuff that Pete Culler designed it was common as well in order to get the right lead for the sail. Easy to use a pair of sheets like a jib if a block is involved.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    I used to shift the big foresail sheet from side to side racing on log canoes. And on small boats, like the stuff that Pete Culler designed it was common as well in order to get the right lead for the sail. Easy to use a pair of sheets like a jib if a block is involved.
    Ben,

    I tried this and hated it--absolutely hated it! Do you have any tricks you can share for managing a double-sheeted mainsail? I gave up pretty quickly.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    Tom, have you done a single sheet to a traveler?

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanGillnet View Post
    Tom, have you done a single sheet to a traveler?
    I've used a rope traveler over the tiller in other boats, but it doesn't work well in my Alaska. The tiller is so high above the aft deck (to clear the sternsheets backrest) that hooking the sheet block to the traveler makes a big inverted V shape--the sheet gets caught in the apex of the V and stays too close to the centerline to maintain a good sheeting angle. I do sometimes rig a traveler anyway if I'm short-tacking, or on a course where I'll need to gybe frequently (downwind down a narrow creek, for example). In those cases the convenience makes up for the lack of optimum sheeting angle.

    Here's a look at the tiller/aft deck on my boat--the rope traveler is rigged, but the sheet is actually hooked onto the gunwale to get the proper sheeting lead.

    Sheeting 2.jpg

    I thought about installing a rigid bar traveler over the tiller so the sheet would slide all the way outboard by itself, but installing hardware is always a pain, and a bar over the tiller would prevent being able to fold up the tiller to get it out of the way.

    In the end, the misainier technique (hooking the sheet on the new leeward gunwale at each tack) is by far the best method I tried. You really do need to get the sheet as far outboard as possible, and that has proven to be the simplest way to do it so far. I'm perfectly happy with it. But it is a little more effort than a boomed rig that can just use a rope traveler.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    It kind of depends on where you are and where the clew of the sail ends. If you are behind a mizzen not a problem. If you are just behind or under the clew it would be pretty miserable. On my bigger lugger with a short foot there is plenty of room to stay clear, and on the Tancook again there was plenty of room. On the canoes we had a sheet with a ring on the bitter end that could hook over the end of a cleat, then a block on the club.; the sheet was hand held and snubbed on the cleat. The whole thing got shifted.

    Another trick which doesn't have quite the nice lead of the sheet going to the quarter is to dead end a sheet on one quarter, lead through a block on the clew then to a turning block on the other quarter.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    It kind of depends on where you are and where the clew of the sail ends. If you are behind a mizzen not a problem. If you are just behind or under the clew it would be pretty miserable.
    Yep, my Alaska is set up so you're pretty much under the mainsail clew (at least, that's where you should be for good trim, and where the benches are). The result was tangles tangles tangles mess tangles at each tack. And in between tacks.

    I've never tried the dead-ending method you describe. I guess I'm too lazy to explore much more when I'm happy with what I've got. A consistent weakness (and a strength) of mine...

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    Build a sprit boom. With your present setup you have no way of shaping the sail. With a sprit boom the sheeting angle is not critical so a rope traveller with a ring or a block would be just fine. Place the jam cleat on the sprit somewhere close to hand when you’re at the helm. A camcleat or open jam cleat on the thwart web would free up one hand and make the boat self-tacking, more or less. Creating more draft or camber in the sail increases the power and acceleration (as well as the drag). In flatter seas and stronger wind flattening the sail reduces the drag, among other things. I can give you the dimensions of mine if you’re interested.

    SPRIT BOOM.jpg

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    No doubt, sprit booms bring advantages for sail shaping. (At the cost of some loss of simplicity: an extra spar, extra lines to adjust, etc.).

    But what's the real world effect? My boat generally gets me where I want to go without a sprit boom, and probably not much more slowly. And I don't see how a rope traveler would be a drastic improvement over the misainier technique, which does give me the proper sheet leads I need.

    It all depends on priorities, I guess, and mine lean toward simplicity. I describe my Alaska, the way it's rigged (single sail, single sheet) as the perfect one for those who want a boat that disallows type A behavior. That's me, pretty much.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    I thought my suggestion dovetailed nicely with your professed ‘laziness’.

    Rather than having to leave your preferred station in the middle of the boat, step over the thwart, reach back to the quarter, seize the sheet and shift it to the other quarter, all the while steering through the eye of the wind, then step back over the thwart to resume your position… you could simply shift your butt from one side of the boat to the other and reach up to the snotter to change gears. That’s about six moves to one. You can’t get much lazier than that.

    Plus, you wouldn't have to turn your back on the view...

    THE VIEW.jpg

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    Quote Originally Posted by darroch View Post
    I thought my suggestion dovetailed nicely with your professed ‘laziness’.
    No doubt--a sprit boom would add complexity in set-up, but (arguably) simplicity in operations. I can see that. In theory. During sailing-rowing transition, though, more complexity seems inescapable. And that's a big part of my sailing game.

    A few more thoughts in case they're of interest to anyone:

    Quote Originally Posted by darroch View Post
    Rather than having to leave your preferred station in the middle of the boat, step over the thwart, reach back to the quarter, seize the sheet and shift it to the other quarter, all the while steering through the eye of the wind, then step back over the thwart to resume your position…
    I'd say that's not a particularly accurate description of how tacking works aboard my Alaska. It's more like:

    1. I'm generally seated on the windward side of the aft thwart, facing diagonally forward. It's time to tack. I push the tiller over. The $.50 autopilot (see Post #4 in THIS THREAD) holds it in place while the boat steers itself through the eye of the wind. With its long straight keel, this will take a while. There's no hurry. As the boat sails itself around, we gain about a boatlength direct to windward (which helps make up for the slow tacking).

    2. At some point midway through this slow turn, I spin around (without stepping over anything, just lift my legs into the aft-of-the-thwart cockpit) so I'm facing backward, thus enjoying the view in ALL directions.

    3. When the time is right, I move so I'm kneeling on a cushion on the keep just forward of the sternsheets. Yes, this is more of a move than I'd need with a traveler, but it's no big deal. And it's actually nice to move a bit during long days of sailing. I casually reach back and move the sheet (no "seizing" involved) to the new leeward gunwale.

    4. I still haven't needed to touch the tiller.

    5. I move back to my comfy seating position, straighten out the tiller, trim the sheet, and hand off steering duties to the autopilot again, having had the chance to move around and stretch a bit to interrupt my long day of sailing.

    6. In reasonably steady winds, I often tie off the sheet to the leeward oarlock with a slipped half hitch.

    Quote Originally Posted by darroch View Post
    you could simply shift your butt from one side of the boat to the other and reach up to the snotter to change gears. That’s about six moves to one. You can’t get much lazier than that.
    Well, but that's 3 moves, not one...

    Quote Originally Posted by darroch View Post
    Plus, you wouldn't have to turn your back on the view...

    THE VIEW.jpg
    Where I sail, there's views in all directions:

    sunset 1.1.jpg

    But...

    Of course all your points are perfectly valid. A wiser person than I might actually do things your way, and get results that suit them better. I have sailed with a sprit boom before in other boats (standing lug, and spritsail), and didn't come away thinking it was a match made in heaven for me.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 10-17-2021 at 09:51 AM.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    Clearly, my powers of persuasion are no match for you.

    We have drifted off course but if I may be permitted one last response to veil my defeat with a clever segue in a last-ditch attempt to convince the uninitiated that the double-sheeted headsail on Alaska is a joy to handle.

    Let me set the scene. You’re rolling along nicely in 12 knots apparent on starboard tack with full main and mizzen set. The wind backs a bit, you decide to tack. The double sheets run to a block on the pinrail to a camcleat on the gunwale (a slight deviation from the drawings). Don’t release the sheet just yet. Put the helm over to get her started into the turn and take the other sheet in hand (the one to starboard which will become the operative sheet). As the boat comes into the eye of the wind and you put the tiller all the way over snug that sheet into the cam and immediately release the other sheet. Ease it out and it will spill almost no wind – snap it out and it will snap to leeward momentarily spilling wind. As the boat comes on its new heading bring the tiller back to centre, adjust the sheet and check the telltales. The “lazy” sheet can be slackened and place behind the camcleat it was just released from (the port cleat). It will stay out of the way. Take any creases out by adjusting the downhaul(s) (to port and starboard of the aft mast gate in the photo below).
    The mizzen is sheeted to a camcleat on the tiller and will self-tack. Check the telltales and adjust if and when needed, otherwise set it and forget it.

    Now, if that doesn’t appeal to your simple nature…

    CAMCLEAT.jpg

    LAZY SHEET.jpg

  15. #120
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    Bristol Bay, Alaska; Central Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    This is fascinating stuff and really goes to show that temperament is a big part of rig selection. Also shows that these traditional working rigs really can and do have a place on modern recreational boats. I find all the variations truly interesting.

    Over on my Sharpie design thread, we've been going through variations on the traditional Sharpie rigs. If you're a mind, take a look. Who knew there were so many variations on the leg-o'-mutton? Flat-Iron / Sharpie Design Choice (woodenboat.com)

  16. #121
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    Default Re: Traditional Working Sail Rigs - Modern Recreational Craft

    John Leather's Spritsails & Lugsails is an interesting read with Part III devoted to Spritsails and Lugsails in North America. He touches on many of the things discussed in your various threads.


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