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Thread: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Palmer View Post
    MMD is not "grabbing rights."
    When he asserts that all plans are the property of the designer he damn well is. And if you think third party resale of drawings or plans is bad stop posting on this damn board because the host does it. Why? Because the designer agreed. Why did the designer agree? Because it was a way they could make money or further their business with the design that was their creation.

    read Rumars post. Read it again. Think how it relates to other comments. Read it again.
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 09-10-2021 at 12:31 AM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    You really could calm down a bit, Hugh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    ......... Why? Because the designer agreed.........
    So, there are no copyright issues involved. The designer is entitled to allow copies to be distributed. However, the question in the OP was about doing it without consent, and that is a fundamentally different position.
    Last edited by Mike-in-Suffolk; 09-10-2021 at 02:44 AM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Here is the UK position, direct from the government's website:

    How copyright protects your work

    Copyright prevents people from:

    • copying your work
    • distributing copies of it, whether free of charge or for sale
    • renting or lending copies of your work
    • performing, showing or playing your work in public
    • making an adaptation of your work
    • putting it on the internet




    What Hugh is saying applies in the US (in his opinion) most certainly does not apply here. The set of drawings bought to build a boat are a copy. The person who buys the copy is not entitled to distribute them, whether free or by selling them. It really couldn't be much clearer.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike-in-Suffolk View Post
    What Hugh is saying applies in the US (in his opinion) most certainly does not apply here. The set of drawings bought to build a boat are a copy. The person who buys the copy is not entitled to distribute them, whether free or by selling them. It really couldn't be much clearer.
    Let's just say that as long as you have used bookstores in the UK, your interpretation does not hold water. You don't have to believe me, ask your solicitor about it.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    No, the author has given his permission for that re-sale process as part of his copyright over the material. I'm not making this stuff up: it's written in law and summarised on the government website I linked to. I sell my intellectual property via architectural drawings for a living, so this stuff is of some intertest to me.
    Last edited by Mike-in-Suffolk; 09-10-2021 at 08:14 AM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    I only sell plans electronically and the purchaser checks a box to agree to the following:

    Agreement: Upon purchasing the Plans & Instructions for Design No. xxx, the purchaser agrees and warrants that only one boat will be constructed from them, and furthermore they, or any part therof, will only be passed on to a third party pursuant to the construction of the said boat.

    I think the intent is clear, but of course I can't police it – and I don't have the time to anyway. There are no time limits, or limits to how many downloads a purchaser can make. And if a purchaser simply passes their login data to another, then there's not much I can do about it (well I could limit downloads to a single IP address of course) – except feel sorry that someone needs to get a life instead of cheating over such a paltry sum.

    I have to say, I would get pretty upset if I discovered a purchaser had sold the plans on, or built more than one boat from them without discussing it with me first.

    If a purchaser simply wanted to give the plans to a family member or similar I'd be fine with that. But I wouldn't be so keen on them being advertized for sale.

    And even if the law is unclear – or unenforceable in practical terms – I think it's really a moral issue. The underlying presumption when selling a set of plans to a purchaser is that the purchaser is intending to build a boat from them. That, after all is their whole purpose.

    Study plans are a little different – they exist to enable a putative purchaser to understand enough about the boat to come to a reasonable decision as to whether they can or want to build it – so there is no presumption that a boat will be built from them. Even so, I don't think study plans should be sold on.

    Cheers -- George
    Last edited by debenriver; 09-10-2021 at 06:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    When he asserts that all plans are the property of the designer he damn well is. And if you think third party resale of drawings or plans is bad stop posting on this damn board because the host does it. Why? Because the designer agreed. Why did the designer agree? Because it was a way they could make money or further their business with the design that was their creation.

    read Rumars post. Read it again. Think how it relates to other comments. Read it again.
    Please, take a breath and count to 10.

    I did. And if a designer wants to stipulate that the plans are their property and are to be returned to them when a yard is done building a boat or can't be resold without their permission, that is (literally) their business.

    I don't think third party resale of plans is bad as long AS LONG AS THE DESIGNER HAS AGREED TO IT. I am certain, from personal experience, that our host is very careful to protect the intellectual property of the designers for whom they sell plans.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Again Mike, ask your solicitor. The physical (or digital) object (information carrier) is not protected as you think (only the information) and becomes property of the buyer if sold. If you don't want that you must specifically not sell it and pursue another avenue like leasing, rent, etc. Of course the protections for the information still apply, but reselling the "original" (as in created with your permission) object is a different matter. You can place restrictions on that in some countries, but they must be spelled out and it should be clear how they work, otherwise it's court time, (restricting property rights is tricky business).

    For example debenrivers sale has restrictions for further transfer of ownership. How this is supposed to work is a matter of debate, for example his wording may be interpreted that if the customer decides to sell a boat under construction he can also sell the plans, and that the license to build is tied to the plans themself, not the customer. It can also be argued that "pursuant of the construction of the said boat" means the plans are transferable if the second buyer actually builds the boat and the first did not. It's all in the wording of the contract, and that has to be in legalese, not english.
    Just to be clear, I am not talking about what is moral, that's a different thing.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Again Mike, ask your solicitor......
    I did. He said you are wrong. Best of luck selling the drawing without selling the information it contains.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    I think the intent is clear, but of course I can't police it – and I don't have the time to anyway.
    And you shouldn't have to, George.
    It is unfortunate how quickly some are to call in the lawyers in the vain hope of equating what's legal with what's right.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Turns out I was right and Hugh Conway was wrong even about the situation in the USA:


    C. Who Owns the Copyright?

    It may come as a surprise to learn that even though the owner pays for the design work, it does not automatically own the copyright in the design documents. The copyright in an architectural work is usually owned initially by the author or authors of the work – namely, the architect and any other the contributors to that work. There are exceptions to cover works of employees, or "works made for hire," but the work of an architect in designing a building for an owner will generally not fall under either of these exceptions. An owner can only acquire the copyright by negotiating a transfer in writing from the copyright holder.


    From FindLaw

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    The moral of the story is don't buy plans you might not need!
    EVER.


    I'll only buy plans for boats I won't build from Atkins & Co. and that has more to do with my childhood than anything else.

    And don't buy used books.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Books are fine. The author's agreement with the publisher allows for re-sale. Authors, architects, artists, musicians, designers and so on are always able to allow copying or re-selling of their material, but it's their choice.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    I probably have as many unused plans as the OP does, all enjoyed for study purposes only. I won't sell them to anyone else to recoup costs. However, some are the type that came from a museum or organization where the plans had been donated by the designer or his heirs with permission to sell copies how do people feel about someone selling those? They (the designer/heirs) got a tax deduction for their gift. I suppose any restrictive conditions of the gift apply....
    Last edited by rbgarr; 09-10-2021 at 01:11 PM.
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    To treat plans for a home built boat, tailored to the amateur woodworker the same professional ship building is wrong.
    But the law is the law.
    As it stands my kids could not buy me a set of plans for my birthday!
    In most states (not this one) my wife would not be able to buy a set plans for me to build.
    All the more plans that won't be sold.
    What happens when someone has to take over a build where the original plan buyer is not able to complete? (such as medical problems)
    Yes You can build this boat at home, but just you!

    amateur plans should be one set of plans , one boat!
    Not impressed by these guys.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    My plans from Oughtred clearly have a note that I can build one boat. And that is in my name. I have some plans for an estuary 16ft two berth cruiser that my father designed. Quite clear on them that the plans are £X and the licence to build is £X.
    Given that plans are quite cheap, One has a moral obligation to pay the designer if you aquire plans and decide to build one. Some people on here think otherwise. I dispise them.

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike-in-Suffolk View Post
    Turns out I was right and Hugh Conway was wrong even about the situation in the USA:


    C. Who Owns the Copyright?

    It may come as a surprise to learn that even though the owner pays for the design work, it does not automatically own the copyright in the design documents. The copyright in an architectural work is usually owned initially by the author or authors of the work – namely, the architect and any other the contributors to that work. There are exceptions to cover works of employees, or "works made for hire," but the work of an architect in designing a building for an owner will generally not fall under either of these exceptions. An owner can only acquire the copyright by negotiating a transfer in writing from the copyright holder.


    From FindLaw
    This is utterly ridiculous. First sale doctrine most certainly applies in the us. I don’t have to petition the copyright holder of a poster or an artist print to sell the print on in the us, and that’s the exact same copyright issue. Architectural drawings are different in the us.
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 09-10-2021 at 01:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Perhaps a mod could relocate this thread to the bilge... it seems to have devolved into various mutual misunderstandings about the question at hand, with some people talking about _legal_ questions, others about _moral_ questions, and often construing the two or confusing different legal questions.

    (e.g., copyright law is, I think, pretty irrelevant to the question of how you can _use_ a legally acquired copyrighted material. books are most certainly copyrighted, which prevents you from... making copies. But not from selling, or loaning, the one copy you bought legally... )
    Daniel

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    This is utterly ridiculous...........
    You're reacting as if I made this stuff up. I even linked to it for you. Take it up with FindLaw, a US organisation writing about US law, rather than telling me I'm wrong.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike-in-Suffolk View Post
    You're reacting as if I made this stuff up. I even linked to it for you. Take it up with FindLaw, a US organisation writing about US law, rather than telling me I'm wrong.
    You are confusing holding of the copyright with the holding of copyrighted material so yes you are wrong.

    Again, if I purchase a legal physical copy of copyrighted material like a book, a poster or a mechanical drawing, the creators control over distribution rights of that copy ends at first sale. I don’t have to petition the copyright holder or talk to anyone.
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 09-10-2021 at 02:18 PM.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    You are confusing holding of the copyright with the holding of copyrighted material so yes you are wrong.

    Again, if I purchase a legal physical copy of copyrighted material like a book, a poster or a painting, the creators control over distribution rights of that copy ends at first sale. I don’t have to petition the copyright holder or talk to anyone.
    No, it's you that's confused. The copyright holder has, in the circumstances you mentioned, signed to say that his work can be sold and re-sold. He has voluntarily given you the right to re-sell. An author does this with a publisher, for instance. That DOES NOT mean that every purchase of intellectual property automatically confers the same rights, which seems to be where you are getting confused.

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike-in-Suffolk View Post
    The copyright holder has, in the circumstances you mentioned, signed to say that his work can be sold and re-sold. He has voluntarily given you the right to re-sell
    Again, first sale of the physical good ends the copyright holders control in the USA. That’s been recognized as settled matter of law for over a hundred years.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Again, first sale of the physical good ends the copyright holders control in the USA. That’s been recognized as settled matter of law for over a hundred years.
    Again, you're just flat out wrong. But let's explore this.

    You go into an art gallery where a living artist is holding an exhibition, and you purchase one of his paintings. Are you entitled to then go out and make copies of that painting and then sell them commercially?

    If you commission an architect to design you a building, can you then use the drawings he produces to build a second building the same but elsewhere, to pass on to another architect to amend, or sell them on to some other developer or collector?

    In both instances, you have made the first purchase.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    You go into an art gallery where a living artist is holding an exhibition, and you purchase one of his paintings. Are you entitled to then go out and make copies of that painting and then sell them commercially?
    You are certainly entitled to sell that painting that you purchased

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    If I go to an art gallery and buy a painting, I am not allowed to copy it- that much is true and not the issue.
    I can hang it on the wall, put it in a cupboard, burn it or give it to my Great Niece to do as she pleases. ( Which could be amusing).
    I can also sell it.
    If I can't sell it, what the hell do outfits like Sotherby's do with the artworks they sell? The artist doesn't get anything from the resale (second or subsequent sale) of their work.

    What make architectural plans different from any other commercial product?

    I guess if you want to sell your unused plan, ask the designer. If they say no, ask for a refund.

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike-in-Suffolk View Post
    You go into an art gallery where a living artist is holding an exhibition, and you purchase one of his paintings. Are you entitled to then go out and make copies of that painting and then sell them commercially?.
    In the US if I walk into a gallery and buy a physical copy of a painting I’m entitled - by first sale - to publicly display that physical copy of the painting and sell that physical copy of the painting. I’m not entitled to reproduce that physical painting or sell reproductions of it without the copyright holders permission. Often copyright does not transfer with the physical painting.
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 09-10-2021 at 04:08 PM.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjim View Post
    If I can't sell it, what the hell do outfits like Sotherby's do with the artworks they sell? The artist doesn't get anything from the resale (second or subsequent sale) of their work
    In the eu and the uk, artists are entitled to a resale right (Droit de suite) and Sotheby’s will collect that, and distribute that.
    What is the Artist's Resale Right (or Droit de Suite)?Following the UK's implementation of the EU Artist's Resale Right Directive, living artists are entitled to receive a resale royalty each time their art work is sold in the UK by an art market professional, subject to certain conditions. Sotheby's will collect the resale royalty due to the artists from buyers of lots with a hammer price (excluding buyer's premium and excluding VAT) in excess of €1000. Any purchaser of a lot to which Artist's Resale Right applies will be charged an amount equal to the applicable resale royalty, which will be added to the relevant invoice.
    Artist's resale right is a percentage of the hammer price calculated as follows:
    Portion of the hammer price (in €)
    0 to 50,000
    50,000.01 to 200,000 200,000.01 to 350,000 350,000.01 to 500,000 Exceeding 500,000
    Royalty rate
    4% 3% 1% 0.5% 0.25%
    The Artist's Resale Right payable will be the aggregate of the amounts payable under the above rate bands, subject to a maximum royalty payable of €12,500 for any single work each time it is sold. The maximum royalty payable of €12,500 applies to works sold for €2 million and above. Calculation of the artist's resale right will be based on the Pounds Sterling / Euro reference exchange rate quoted on the date of the sale by the European Central Bank

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Thanks Hugh, I did not know that.
    Ford should declare that it's products are sculptures, and get a cut from used car sales.

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike-in-Suffolk View Post
    I did. He said you are wrong. Best of luck selling the drawing without selling the information it contains.
    It's clear you don't make the distinction between the info and the physical object. The info is always protected and no owner can use the information on them without the copyrights holder approval. If the object containing that info was sold without express limitations on property transfer (wich is actually not an easy thing to do for mobile objects) it can be resold at the owners will, inherited, etc. This is the basic difference between possession and use, and that's why you can sell one set of plans and 2 or more building licences to the same person. Owning the plans and using the info on them are two different things.
    Why someone would buy a set of plans wich are useless in their primary function is a different kettle of fish.

    Just to be clear, books are not different. What you sell to the publisher is a full or partial right to distribution. This has nothing to do with reselling a used book.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    You should just give the plans away. Chances are that person won't build the boat, either.
    Steve Martinsen

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Good grief, a tempest in a tea pot that has been taken up many times around here. The answer is clear. What does the designer have on the plans cover relating to their use? My plans always say that one boat may be built from these plans and that the design belongs to the designer. The "design" is the material within the plans that specifically relates to this plan. No more and no less is significant. One boat only can be legally built from these plans and they cannot to be used to build another, ever. The physical plans belong to the person who legally bought them and can be used as they see fit within the limits of the copyright. If they are yours, you can sell or give the plans away to another to build one boat, provided you have not violated the copyright.

    Its not rocket science and attempts to make by those who should know better only muddy up the water.

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Jeez, if i made money on royalties of resale of the vessels I make, glass drinking vessels, my trade, I wouldn't be wandering the forums, I'd be scrubbing a bilge or some rotting boat with the free time. The money would not pay for a whole one.I have a wealth of plans, 2 purpose made, several from Phil Bolger, God rest his soul. Thus far, I've used one and it was a modification from a 1930's book of skiff designs with copyright expired. Now I've got to worry about plans Police...Best thing to do, give them away, then no money in transaction, problem Solved.

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    Default Re: Selling boat plans (purchased) that I will not use?

    Well, for those who believe boat plans in hand are fair game for building a boat from those plans, consider this: A naval architect designs a boat and sells the plans to somebody who builds one boat from those plans and then gives the plans away. Years later, somebody else builds a boat to those same plans. As it turns out, the second boat turns turtle and a guest aboard drowns. The guest's heirs file suit against naval architect because their expert tells them the boat design was inherently unstable or otherwise "not suitable for the use intended." Who pays the naval architect's lawyer's bill to defend the lawsuit? The naval architect or the guy who gave away the plans?

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