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Thread: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Underbuilt,under FRAMED from the git go.
    This vessel should have had double sawn or laminated frames from new...
    She will always be a poorly built old carvel boat.
    Yes, Sparkman and Stephens are known for poorly built boats.
    (Sure are a lot of BSers around these days)

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    The Youtube channel idea has merit, I’m amazed at how successful many of them are financially. The downside of course is the additional time involved in filming and editing a decent video but as in Leo’s case on Tally Ho (Sampson Boat Co on Youtube) the financial gain looks like it is well worth the effort - when done right.

    From his early days of filming alone Leo (a shipwright himself) has funded another full time shipwright to help on the rebuild with him and the video’s popularity, as well as Leo’s shipwrighting experience, has drawn in volunteers to the work. Another that comes to mind is SV Seeker on YouTube, which the builder proudly acknowledges as the boat that the internet built.
    Larks

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    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Thanks everyone for weighing in. I have read through everyones opinions a few times and been weighing it all in my own mind.
    I must say the jury is still out, as to whether to proceed or not. On another thread, Slacko said
    “Bringing a vessel the size of your yacht back from the dead is a task beyond any but the keenest of us unless you are very well bankrolled/don’t need to have a paying job” And I have to ask myself if I am “the keenest of us”? Clearly not, as I don’t have a background in boat building or in YouTube blogging or filmmaking, for that matter. Nor a steady girlfriend or wife to stand by my side, lend a hand, help around the house, or look good in any hypothetical videos I made to promote the apparently never-ending saga. Tally Ho is an interesting example because in my eyes it is something of heroic proportions. Leo not only had many years of boatbuilding experience behind him, but somehow also demonstrates a high level of proficiency in film production. All of this coalesced into an ability to not only mobilize a free crew, but also create a cashflow machine to fund the project. And yet it has still taken 4+ years and looks to still have a long way to go. Granted, he even had to replace the keel. And at the start, he could just grab a piece of the boat and pull it off in his hand. It was literally crumbling. AWAB is not in this condition. No part of her can be pulled off by hand, though obviously a pretty big handful of parts of her need to be replaced or repaired. But Leo’s Tally Ho project is something in boat building that seems could be likened to a basketball player hoping to play in the NBA, or to be Lebron James in the NBA… Its a rare slam dunk, its an exceptional case. Not to say there aren’t a few more cases like that or even a whole league of NBA players playing in the NBA. But still, exceptional cases in a field of many many many more broken dreams. Leo had a certain combination of factors that set him up for this, and he is probably one of only a very very few who are actually probably making quite a bit of money off of their YouTube channel of fixing up a boat, an endeavor that in all other circumstances as many have pointed out here, drains your bank account, rather than adds to it.
    I do have one thing going for me, which is time, as I don’t have to work a 9-5. But nevertheless, I don’t know if I am well enough ”bankrolled” or not to take on a project of this proportion, regardless of the free time I have on my hands to work on this thing myself. I also don’t know, but don’t really get the sense that even if one guy worked on this as his job from 9-5, if that would be enough. It’s not the sense I get from Leo’s story for example, where he did have an awful lot of time on his hands, access to a full workshop and an entire crew of free labor, not to mention also a hired shipwright as well later on. From the stories Ive gathered on here, most notably from Chris, it seemed like Chris is quite an experienced, skilled and exceptionally driven person, nevertheless his stories span a decade, with mixed results.
    So Im getting the sense - that - it is an extraordinarily high risk endeavor that could easily go off the tracks at any moment, is otherwise guaranteed to be harrowing, frustrating, and slow, with all kinds of set backs.




    Larks, I really appreciate the encouragement and optimism as well as the practical advice as to how to proceed. While I have indeed already dreamt the great dream and I have indeed already bought the boat (but at a price worth sacrafcing if the dream does indeed need to be shot down in order to keep my shirt). I guess the real and final question before diving in any further is what are the real scale of the costs to see this thing through. Because if it is anywhere near the numbers involved in Bruce’s suggestion that it would be cheaper to build this boat from scratch then its a no-go. If that is true that would give me a very clear answer in the decision making process, because, it was estimated at a two million dollar replacement value, and I know that a wooden boat built at Gannon and Benjamin, actually smaller, from what I recall 50’ schooner Charlotte cost north of one million dollars to build. Theres certainly the differentiation between what it would cost to have a boat built by a yard, vs building it yourself, but to rebuild AWAB from scratch, I can only imagine a scenario where you are paying an entire crew to execute it. So if this is the ballpark that we are speaking - a million plus, then the decision is easily made to bail now and save myself from disaster. Even those pilot cutters being built in England featured on Leo’s show, I think those were selling for somewhere around 500K from what I remember.


    There is a big difference between 5 years and 200k and 10 years and one million.




  4. #39
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    The thing is that I was under the impression that I had a lot of good boat here. And that what I would need is some repairs. That I could do incrementally over time, and at some points move the boat around, such as getting the boat able to go sailing, and at least rebuild the interior in another country at my leisure, under different circumstances that being parked in a US yard for years to come.


    But a lot of what Im hearing on this thread seems like pretty well founded warnings to avoid certain doom. I thought I had a lot of good boat - a lot of good, well constructed boat, made of top quality materials. But if she was indeed poorly built from the start and mangled up along the centerline timber in ways that can prove to be unresolvable problems or problems that would be so big to resolve as to make it easier to build a whole new boat, then I don’t want to set myself up for inevitable failure, even if the process would still be a “learning experience”.


    Already I have run into demoralizing setbacks because I had finally gotten through long delays around a contractors ability to work in the yard due to insurance issues and then scheduling, was set to get the boat caulked and put in the water, to move it to a city where I would actually want to be, and where there is actual access to a shipyard with the resources and skills to facilitate a wooden boat restoration, when I came upon the snag of not being able to get insurance to put it in the water and move it there. This bureaucratic layer is something far different from the pirate lifestyle I dream of living. Without being able to launch without risking everything to my name that she doesn’t sink or have any kind of accident, I pivoted to the trucking option, which I had previously passed on when before id been quoted 7k to move her 3 hours. Now though, perhaps because its someone who actually knows what is involved in moving this boat, or in part because of the strange times we are in now with such shortage of labor, or both, the new quote is $25k just to move the boat, to start work on her. Now this is absurd in my mind. The only thing left to do is to fix all the frames and questionable planks where she rests now. This is a bummer because it is a very inconvenient location with little in the way of resources or support for working on her, and it is a rather depressing town to have to live in through it, certainly not a place to meet that pretty girl Bruce recommended. Unfortunately it differs from the Sir Issac story of the couple in a more crucial way - there is no shop where it is, let alone one that I could live in.


    I will most likely need to construct a full cover as recommended, to protect not only the topsides but I imagine it is important to get the entirety of the hull out of the rain and sun, before too much more time passes. (I have this fear that if she just sits dry for a while longer, something will dry out and check, like the keel and so that in another year or two, after exerting a fair bit more effort, and funds, I discover something that would require the keel to be replaced…)
    I will also need to build out a container or a large trailer as an onsite wood shop and also find someone to come out here to the middle of nowhere and teach me how to fix these frames and how to make planks and re-plank the bad spots.
    I guess its the nature of the game. That it has to start out with such an incline at the beginning, just to get her moved somewhere else to do more work on her.


    A note though, as gypse was talking about the ease of tearing out the deck and replacing… Im not sure if that’s a joke to start with, but I want to mention that while there are a few leaks, they seem to be limited to the joints where the pilothouse meets the deck and where the hatches meet the deck. Overall the deck appears to be in quite good shape, while indeed needing at least a few sections of reefing and re-caulking. Another thing ive thought about, as blasphemous as it sounds, is the option, if worst comes to worst, for the deck, to just put a coat of that silicone roof paint, or whatever this other rubberized deck paint has been painted on the teak deck of the boat next to me in the yard. Yes its a significant downgrade from the teak deck, but if the deck does prove to be a bigger problem than it seems, and if painting it would stop freshwater intrusion, and delay the need to do anything else about the deck for a number of years, and save me boat loads (lol) of money, there is that option…


    I guess really what Im trying to evaluate, and what I would appreciate everyones thoughts on who has experience with these things, is how bad of a boat am I starting with?
    Is it more likely a hopeless endeavor, a fools errand, or does it have some life left in it?
    And how much you think it would cost just to get the boat structurally sound, insurable, and safe enough to navigate into the Caribbean… take on a trip. All the technology and gizmos aside… Just to fix the frames, whatever few seacocks are as bad as that guy said… I mean they are solid bronze and look good to me… replace or reinforce the stem, the planks and so on. I don’t want to tear off the pilot house and rebuild it… that would be too much . But I would drill holes in it, inject epoxy and then paint the whole thing in silicone… I mean worst case scenario…. I mean… could always tear the pilot house and the deck off later some years down the line after cruising some.. I don’t know… Im not trying to make it look like when it was first launched all spit and polished and new. Im also not trying to kill the beauty of the thing. But I am only interested in proceeding if there is a way to get this thing to act like a working boat and get in the water and go somewhere and not rot to pieces first or fail in some irreparable way in the meantime.


    How much would it take to make this boat able to go sailing? Bare bones…




    In the meantime, since I cannot move it, and it seems like it will be stuck where it is for this season. I am thinking the best thing to do, or easiest thing to do for the time being is pull the masts out, store them indoors, and shrink wrap the boat. Im sure this brings its own problems, the whole condensation thing, but im thinking if I run some ducting with can fans perhaps this wont be as much of an issue as just getting rained on and rotting as she has been. Just to stabilize things for the time being...

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Ok, so there is a lot to chew on here, and I have some thoughts, but first - the quotes you are getting to move the boat are absurd. They are so outrageous as to be obscene unless there are some special circumstances that you aren't telling us. Do you need to close a major highway? Take down an obstructing railroad bridge? Otherwise, no way. The going rate for a professional mover with a hydraulic trailer here in the PNW is around $250/hour, door to door. Maybe more if you need a pilot car but even so it's nowhere near what you are being told. I don't know what the usual cost is for these things in the VA/MD area is but I have a very hard time imagining that it's more than Seattle prices. I think you need to get some different quotes.
    - Chris

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  6. #41
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    I haven't read every post in detail, but my 40K lb. 50' boat gets moved 5 miles each spring & fall for $800 each - as a 3 axle trailer is required. If a 2 axle could be used, it'd be $650 or so. For short moves like mine 3/4 of the time is loading/unloading. So - I'd expect a 3 hour move to be $2K or so. Adding the masts adds a bit. While prices I've seen are higher than Chris' - they are nothing like what you describe above.

    However, this is in Maine - where there are 3 companies with triple axle trailers. Dunno about VA.

    and... Of course the broken frames need to be fixed, but do you have any idea how many boats are being sailed every day with cracked frames?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Maybe it’s because I’m not in the PNW and instead on the eastern shore of VA… out in the boonies. I called 8 boat haulers so far. The first local guy I spoke to said, “oh you’re f***ed…” I called 6 more companies who either said they just wouldn’t do it, or one said only if it was a longer trip… They recommended I speak to house movers… Then the 8th asked all the questions, more questions, he said it would be possible but that there’s only like 3 trailers capable of moving this thing in the country. That struck me as odd. But it is heavy and wide…

    maybe it’s because it’s 28 tons? And 15’ wide. I’m told not only do i need the lead cars and pole cars and a road survey, but also a police escort because of its width. It’s also heavy… and the mast, I think… I’d have to measure but I think the mast is 60-65’… and then I was told I’d need a separate truck because of the overhang. Maybe he’s a bs salesman. I mean I’m not dumb enough to pay that price if he was being honest lol.

    but maybe it’s the weight? 56k lbs… or the width…? Or both?

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    I've never taken on a project of the size like the one you are considering. But I have given some thought to the boat I would buy if I were going to quit my job, sail off into the sunset, cruise around, and live aboard for most of the year. If that is what you want to do, a smaller boat in better shape to start with is the way to go.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    How far is the other yard by sea? Would it be ridiculous to hire some recovery air bags and float her around? By which I mean “assume” that she is likely to take on enough water to sink her when launched and mitigate that risk by essentially treating her like a recovered sunken vessel to tow her around. Maybe contact a few recovery crews and see what they think.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRabbet View Post
    Maybe it’s because I’m not in the PNW and instead on the eastern shore of VA… out in the boonies. I called 8 boat haulers so far. The first local guy I spoke to said, “oh you’re f***ed…” I called 6 more companies who either said they just wouldn’t do it, or one said only if it was a longer trip… They recommended I speak to house movers… Then the 8th asked all the questions, more questions, he said it would be possible but that there’s only like 3 trailers capable of moving this thing in the country. That struck me as odd. But it is heavy and wide…

    maybe it’s because it’s 28 tons? And 15’ wide. I’m told not only do i need the lead cars and pole cars and a road survey, but also a police escort because of its width. It’s also heavy… and the mast, I think… I’d have to measure but I think the mast is 60-65’… and then I was told I’d need a separate truck because of the overhang. Maybe he’s a bs salesman. I mean I’m not dumb enough to pay that price if he was being honest lol.

    but maybe it’s the weight? 56k lbs… or the width…? Or both?
    Maybe, but it's not significantly heavier, longer, or wider than Perihelion was, and I moved that boat all over Seattle for a few hundred dollars each trip. But let's say the problem is that you are just too far away from everyone so no one wants to go there. Could you put it on a barge? Or could you put the money that you would spend on moving her into fixing the things needed to even just get liability insurance so you can put her in the water and tow her somewhere?

    Also you might call the Chesapeake Maritime Museum in St. Michaels, MD. They might have some ideas. But bottom line, if you can't get it moved to a place where you can work on it for less than, say, $5k tops, I would walk away. Too many good boats out there needing less work going for little to no money to just throw away money on this one, even with your history with her.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRabbet View Post
    Maybe it’s because I’m not in the PNW and instead on the eastern shore of VA… out in the boonies. I called 8 boat haulers so far. The first local guy I spoke to said, “oh you’re f***ed…” I called 6 more companies who either said they just wouldn’t do it, or one said only if it was a longer trip… They recommended I speak to house movers… Then the 8th asked all the questions, more questions, he said it would be possible but that there’s only like 3 trailers capable of moving this thing in the country. That struck me as odd. But it is heavy and wide…

    maybe it’s because it’s 28 tons? And 15’ wide. I’m told not only do i need the lead cars and pole cars and a road survey, but also a police escort because of its width. It’s also heavy… and the mast, I think… I’d have to measure but I think the mast is 60-65’… and then I was told I’d need a separate truck because of the overhang. Maybe he’s a bs salesman. I mean I’m not dumb enough to pay that price if he was being honest lol.

    but maybe it’s the weight? 56k lbs… or the width…? Or both?
    The weight is fine for a triple axle trailer. The width can be dealt with, as 15 isn't too bad (though I don't know your local conditions). The guy who moves my boat has done a 65' schooner on his trailer - so I know yours can be moved.

    I believe the problem is that you are not reaching people who know how to or have the equipment to deal with a bigger boat. I know for a fact that there are at least 3 trailers that can handle your boat in Maine alone. I realize that doesn't help you, but it does show the guy was blowing smoke up...

    Oh - the mast? Mine is 65 ft. & it fits on the trailer no problem - they are designed to haul masts as well.

    Here's a pic (Bucky will be pissed that it has the trailer before he painted it) of my 52' boat on a triple axle. There's loads more room. ETA: she's 12 1/2 ft. beam- but the 65 ft schooner he hauled on it was about 17 ft beam.

    Biggest issue hauling a boat is often height - not so much width.

    Last edited by Garret; 09-17-2021 at 07:43 AM.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    have you contacted Brownell's ? https://www.brownellboattransport.com/

    they are leaders in the industry and their website shows the chesapeake as within their territory

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by coelcanth View Post
    have you contacted Brownell's ? https://www.brownellboattransport.com/

    they are leaders in the industry and their website shows the chesapeake as within their territory
    I know they are good (they make some of the best hydraulic trailers after all - the one in my post above is an old Brownell) - but they've never been inexpensive. That being said, I bet they would certainly be better than what the OP has gotten.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Palmer View Post
    I've never taken on a project of the size like the one you are considering. But I have given some thought to the boat I would buy if I were going to quit my job, sail off into the sunset, cruise around, and live aboard for most of the year. If that is what you want to do, a smaller boat in better shape to start with is the way to go.

    Thanks Brian, for this sound advice. I do see the simplicity of this solution and it is a very good argument to go down the path of restoring this old behemoth, which does seem like a long road, and once restored, still an enormous amount of maintenance. I may very well one day throw in the towel and turn towards such a solution.

    But alas at the moment, I am not quite ready to let this thing go. Maybe I will see the light soon enough, but for the time being I am compelled to keep digging into options to do something with this boat. Otherwise I do have the other problem of what to do with this beautiful wreck. One way or another something has to happen with it or ill get stuck with a pretty big bill from the yard to let them figure out its next home... So Im thinning I would at least like to get it mobile

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    How far is the other yard by sea? Would it be ridiculous to hire some recovery air bags and float her around? By which I mean “assume” that she is likely to take on enough water to sink her when launched and mitigate that risk by essentially treating her like a recovered sunken vessel to tow her around. Maybe contact a few recovery crews and see what they think.

    This is an interesting idea. I will look into this.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Maybe, but it's not significantly heavier, longer, or wider than Perihelion was, and I moved that boat all over Seattle for a few hundred dollars each trip. But let's say the problem is that you are just too far away from everyone so no one wants to go there. Could you put it on a barge? Or could you put the money that you would spend on moving her into fixing the things needed to even just get liability insurance so you can put her in the water and tow her somewhere?

    Also you might call the Chesapeake Maritime Museum in St. Michaels, MD. They might have some ideas. But bottom line, if you can't get it moved to a place where you can work on it for less than, say, $5k tops, I would walk away. Too many good boats out there needing less work going for little to no money to just throw away money on this one, even with your history with her.
    Thanks for the suggestions. I am indeed thinking the best solution may be to do the work where she is to get her insurable. And also... if it proves to be to difficult or expensive, then perhaps let the dream go and find a boat in better shape.

    The puzzle then is - how to get rid of her. I wonder if there are people with much deeper pockets that might want to restore her. She would be a shame to lose to the scrap heap.

    The Museum in St. Michales is a neat place. I have talked to the guys there a few times, but not about moving a big vessel around the area. I appreciate the suggestion.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    The weight is fine for a triple axle trailer. The width can be dealt with, as 15 isn't too bad (though I don't know your local conditions). The guy who moves my boat has done a 65' schooner on his trailer - so I know yours can be moved.

    I believe the problem is that you are not reaching people who know how to or have the equipment to deal with a bigger boat. I know for a fact that there are at least 3 trailers that can handle your boat in Maine alone. I realize that doesn't help you, but it does show the guy was blowing smoke up...

    Oh - the mast? Mine is 65 ft. & it fits on the trailer no problem - they are designed to haul masts as well.

    Here's a pic (Bucky will be pissed that it has the trailer before he painted it) of my 52' boat on a triple axle. There's loads more room. ETA: she's 12 1/2 ft. beam- but the 65 ft schooner he hauled on it was about 17 ft beam.

    Biggest issue hauling a boat is often height - not so much width.


    Ok, this is all interesting to know. That so far I haven't gotten ahold of anyone who has the right set-up doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have to imagine that somewhere not too far away one of these trailers exist.

    I do think I spoke with Brownell before but that its not where they go. But perhaps they can lead me to someone else who has one of these trailers.

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