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Thread: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

  1. #1
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    Default Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Looking for recommendations for companies that would insure a wooden boat in general and one with sistered frames as solution for broken frames. Ive spoken to people having trouble getting their boats insured. I am concerned about how, with who I will be able to get operational liability insurance from after my repairs are complete.

    Also, is it at all possible, from any company to insure a boat that would not pass coast guard standards? I have 30 broken frames and would like to get liability insurance for putting in the water and moving to a different yard. Is this possible?

    All advice appreciated.

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    If you have 30 "sistered" frames , rather than properly repaired,.....
    Cuz I bet a dolla , there is more wrong with that boat,and it starts with oak.
    What "coast guard standards" do you speak of, is this a commercial vessel? USCG has ever looked beyong stupid stuff like pfd's and the like, drugs and running people aboard for warrants in my experience , on my pleasure boats. They never looked at construction, ground tackle, rig, etc.
    If you are seeking liability to go from yard to yard, perhaps a boat mover would be better.
    bruce

    edit...oh god is this the same boat you wanted to take to the Caribbean for a "total refit"?
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 09-02-2021 at 03:34 AM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Hi Bruce,

    Yes this is the same boat.... Oh god... I get the sense your oh god is implying tidings of doom about the whole endeavor. Honestly I myself am reckoning with this concept more and more.

    The situation is this: 30+ broken frames, all clean breaks right above the Blige stringers, id say, approximately along the waterline. The oak itself appears to be good otherwise. Except for a couple frames behind the generator due to the electrical fields I've been told, and then a few at the stern that were laminated and are de-laminating.

    At first I thought the frames had been broken by lifting the boat, because the breaks were all located around the areas that the travel lift straps had been, which I could see because the straps damaged the paint and revealed their locations. But as I opened up the boat further, I found more broken frames throughout.

    Then the stem is cracked from, I've gathered, two collisions, one with a dock and another with a boat, both about 10 years ago. he did some hack repair job and went on sailing it for another decade.

    There is an "X" of bronze strapping on the inside of the hull. The "X" is positioned in such a way that I'm assuming it was designed to add rigidity and strength to the hull especially in the area of the main mast. The straps anchored to the keel at the bow. This anchor point was stupidly eliminated to make way for the addition of a bow thruster. (I have blueprints and construction drawings that I can share to help clarify what im talking about here if necessary).

    My thinking has been that the dimensions and strength of the frames in the boat were specified as such given the additional strength added by the bronze strapping. And that by eliminating a crucial anchor point this rigidity was lost. In conjunction with the collisions, the frames have broken. This is my guess. But I am a total novice so I really don't know, only operating on theories.

    Now, I had thought the frames needed to be replaced, but then I met this veteran shipwright who does a lot of bigger vessels and commercial boats, whose father apparently helped write the book of coastguard regulations for wooden boat repairs, and he said he knows a way - some kind of three part sister that can be slid in behind the bilge stringer and secure the frames - that would pass USCG standards. That has intrigued me because maybe I wouldn't have to tear as much of the boat apart...

    One surveyor and this guy I just mentioned, both said that there is "a lot of boat there" (in a good way) and its all not as bad as I think. But then again, another shipwright told me I shouldn't do it, that its the kind of project that breaks a man. And pretty much everyone else, mostly people who aren't really into wooden boats, all think its just a recipe for endless misery and disappointment... just too much work, too big, and too many problems...

    So if we were to bet that dolla, which I wouldn't take that bet because I already know off the bat you'd take my dollar: there is more wrong with the boat:

    This is what comes to mind:
    Stem needs to be replaced.
    Frames broken.
    Pilot house leaks at all 4 corners, and has been for at least a decade when I sailed on this boat back then, it was leaking. There are areas of rot at the bottom of the posts making up the pilot house.
    The forward deck hatches leak. I was told that the only way to stop this would be to take them apart and put them back together.
    The aft cabin top is leaking and rotting some of the interior in the aft cabin.
    The cockpit benches have dropped 1/2" from where they belong. It seems this is because a cargo rack was bolted to the transom and created a lever that distorted the shape of things. One shipwright said the whole cockpit should be disassembled and put back together - that its not as simple as jacking it and wedging it back into place.
    There are several planks that should be replaced.

    This is the lions share of what comes to mind after having pulled a lot out of the way and looking the boat over many many times over the last year.

    My latest idea is to put it on a truck and move it up to a yard in Maryland that has a building I can put it inside of and has a full wood shop and metal shop, and will let me do unskilled labor and hire them to do the complex stuff and learn while lending a hand. I figured at least if I get it in a building and spray it down with timbor, it will stop the degradation. I could stabilize it and then do one or two big jobs a season, as funds come in, take a chunk, give it to the yard, and make headway.

    But I am at a kind of cross roads, where I don't have that much into it yet, not much at all compared to what it will likely cost to get it structurally sound and operational. The first surveyor/shipwright who looked at it said if I worked on it for a year every day and spent $80K Id have a nice boat. But somehow, I get the feeling its likely to run much much more than that.. But then this guy who I mentioned above with the sister frame solution, didn't seem to find the boat in such bad condition that I should be scared away. And its not that its because he's trying to get me roped into paying him to do the work. He has little interest in doing it and is too busy with big state contracts to even have much time to fit me in, for even a few days of work.

    But the general consensus from people, family, friends, mostly people who don't know anything about wooden boats think that its a doomed undertaking and encourage me to run, and save my life, LOL.

    So... The "oh god" Bruce, what did you mean. What are your thoughts about all this? I can provide photos and blueprints if they are helpful. I would certainly appreciate another opinion about the whole thing.

    Thanks

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    My "oh god" comes from seeing dreams like this broken over and over again.
    The frames broken in a line above the stringer are from, in my experience, the result of the Bermudian rig put into a carvel planked boat, and the backstay tensioned up too hard, and left that way.Usually from racing.
    There is a short period in the history of yachting that Bermudian rigs were used in carvel boats , about 1930 to 1970.
    Of course there have been boats built and rigged this way since, but not mass produced professionally.Mostly by cruisers who are not trying to save weight by sacrificing strength,thus, more strongly built.And these folks tend to know the danger of cranking that backstay too hard.
    Also, broken steamed oak frames are as common as a seagul poop on boats over 30ish years old.
    Photos of your boat are the meat and spuds of our information and opinion and advice given here,so yes please, lotsa photos.Technical ones, bilge,floors,frames,clamp, rig, trouble spots.
    If this is a private boat, beyond being given the status of "manifestly unsafe vessel" I do not think it is any of the USCG's concern how she is built or repaired.Commercial passenger carrying is another thing entirely.
    Anyway, here is a tip for the future. If you use some epoxy and a bit of fiberglass here and there, there might be a box on the insurance to check "composite" rather than "wood". It worked for me.
    bruce

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Yes, this boat will cause you misery and disappointment. Guaranteed. Might break you financially, emotionally, and mentally. If you are married it might break that too. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it though.

    Read this, if you haven't already.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...alled-me-Today

    And this.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ot-Petrel-quot

    And this.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...and-redemption

    And then decide if you want to spend the next four or five or ten years and likely all of your disposable income (and probably a big piece that right now you wouldn't think of as "disposable" unless you are independently wealthy) doing this, or if you would rather have vacations, see your family occasionally, drive a nice car instead of an old pickup truck that is good for hauling boat stuff, and spend money on things other than tools, paint, sandpaper and really nice, expensive pieces of lumber that you will then convert into smaller, even nicer, even more expensive boat parts, along with a lot of sawdust.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    This sounds like a project that starts off large and gets bigger. I echo what everyone above has said but would also advise you to find a shipwright who knows what they're doing. Sistering frames is standard practice and any shipwright who acts like it's a mystical art sounds dubious.

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Oh, and not to pile on, but you could spend $80k and a year (or $180k and five years) to end up with a boat that is worth maybe $50k. On a good day. Just to say that no one restores a wooden boat because it’s less expensive than buying a good one to begin with. But all the negative points aside, restoring old wooden boats is an activity that is its own reward for a certain type of person. But no one can determine for you if you fit that mold.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    My "oh god" comes from seeing dreams like this broken over and over again.
    The frames broken in a line above the stringer are from, in my experience, the result of the Bermudian rig put into a carvel planked boat, and the backstay tensioned up too hard, and left that way.Usually from racing.
    There is a short period in the history of yachting that Bermudian rigs were used in carvel boats , about 1930 to 1970.
    Of course there have been boats built and rigged this way since, but not mass produced professionally.Mostly by cruisers who are not trying to save weight by sacrificing strength,thus, more strongly built.And these folks tend to know the danger of cranking that backstay too hard.
    Also, broken steamed oak frames are as common as a seagul poop on boats over 30ish years old.
    Photos of your boat are the meat and spuds of our information and opinion and advice given here,so yes please, lotsa photos.Technical ones, bilge,floors,frames,clamp, rig, trouble spots.
    If this is a private boat, beyond being given the status of "manifestly unsafe vessel" I do not think it is any of the USCG's concern how she is built or repaired.Commercial passenger carrying is another thing entirely.
    Anyway, here is a tip for the future. If you use some epoxy and a bit of fiberglass here and there, there might be a box on the insurance to check "composite" rather than "wood". It worked for me.
    bruce
    Thanks for you thoughts here. I guess what I was meaning about USCG... was more about what/how things need to be done in order for any insurance company to deem the boat seaworthy and insurable.

    That could easily be what happened, the tightening of the backstay, I imagine. Also at one point the main mast was broken, so perhaps the shock of that whole process had something to do with it, if not the two known head on collisions.

    I have tons of photos - technical photos I can provide, as well as blueprints, as well as archival photos of the boat when it was in its heyday looking amazing. what would be the best way to share lots of photos on the forum? is there a preferred secondary photo website that I would upload them to? I imagine there is something preferable to uploading them right into the thread.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Oh, and not to pile on, but you could spend $80k and a year (or $180k and five years) to end up with a boat that is worth maybe $50k. On a good day. Just to say that no one restores a wooden boat because it’s less expensive than buying a good one to begin with. But all the negative points aside, restoring old wooden boats is an activity that is its own reward for a certain type of person. But no one can determine for you if you fit that mold.

    Gosh well, I read those forum threads you linked to and those do scare me away a bit. I am coming to terms with the fact that this may just be a good recipe to ruin my life. But in accepting the fact that I might have to let the dream go, a space has arisen to reevaluate and see one last time if it is really just unfeasible. This local shipwright who said there is a method of sistering them that would be sufficient, he did not make it out to be some mystical thing, just that there are different methods for different situations, and that there is a method he could show me that would be suitable for this situation. He is the one person so far who doesn't seem to think that the boat is all that bad. He said "ive seen a lot worse" well I'm sure that is true, but I am still not sure if even if there is much worse, if this is that feasible or not. Apparently all but several planks are fine. The fasteners, some people say are Monel, others argue are silicone bronze, the fastening schedule says Monel, whatever it is, they are in great shape still apparently.

    Now if it was that I could pay a yard over a few years something in the ballpark of the 180k you mentioned and work on it partly myself, and hire those with the real skills and experience to move thing thing forward one section at a time, it wouldn't scare me that much. But when I read about this guy that spent ten years trying to rebuild this boat that was already int the water and operational to start with, and it ends up in the scrap heap, that is a frightening tale, I wouldn't want to repeat. Granted that boat sounded like it was a different kind of more lightweight airplane construction and this is perhaps simpler? I guess the thing is a lot of people are saying run. One guy said it would cost $750K to fix, now that is way too much for me even over 10 years... But if it were estimated to be 100k and ballooned to 150k, or 180, and that made it really nice and functional and not still riddled with problems, then I would have to consider proceeding... even if it would only be worth 50k in the market place... But it does sure sound from those threads shared that it really takes someone with an inexhaustible amount of gumption an awful lot more than a couple hundred thousand and a solid decade for these projects to maybe succeed.... that sounds pretty perilous.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    We don't need old photos or"blueprints",we know how to build a boat.
    Photos of how she is right now.
    One cannot load photos here directly from a computer, one needs to put em on a photo hosting nsite. I use Shutterfly.
    Getting it to work is a PITA , but it's easier than ....wait for it.....building a boat.
    These photos may help us encourage you to move ahead, or aid in condeming the vessel.
    b

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Yes, one can load photos directly from a computer to this site. Simply click on the "insert image" icon in the toolbar on the reply window. You can choose "from computer" or "from URL." Easy peasy.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    When contemplating how to restore a boat, you should also consider whether. It’s useful to have an idea of what other boats can be bought. You might save considerable time and money. https://www.yachtworld.com/

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    We don't need old photos or"blueprints",we know how to build a boat.
    Photos of how she is right now.
    One cannot load photos here directly from a computer, one needs to put em on a photo hosting nsite. I use Shutterfly.
    Getting it to work is a PITA , but it's easier than ....wait for it.....building a boat.
    These photos may help us encourage you to move ahead, or aid in condeming the vessel.
    b

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/LWXjCPjMuMpvoz5D6

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/rXiA3HZGHxgQYsfY7

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/LXT9TNXYNno9mv8t6

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/9qhige38Dfq5EqBw8

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/zmzQ5cd5mDYkxc2j7

    Here are a few albums to start. I wanted to share something asap, and make sure that this method of sharing is working.
    I have a lot more photos, but they are in the slow process of being uploaded over a slow connection.
    Also, something I am noticing is that it may be rather hard to represent it all as many of the cracked frames are in places that are quite hard to photograph, or to show in their overall context. I will do my best to represent best I can. I wish there was a way to annotate individual photos, but so far I have not found a way to do this.

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    I haven’t heard of an insurance company concerned about anything to do with “Coast Guard standards”, whatever that means, here in the states.
    When I rebuilt my boat I had to have her surveyed for the insurance company. They just wanted a “suitability of insurance” survey, which is different than a purchase survey. With the survey in hand, liability insurance was no problem through Boat U.S. & Geico.

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    I haven’t heard of an insurance company concerned about anything to do with “Coast Guard standards”, whatever that means, here in the states.
    When I rebuilt my boat I had to have her surveyed for the insurance company. They just wanted a “suitability of insurance” survey, which is different than a purchase survey. With the survey in hand, liability insurance was no problem through Boat U.S. & Geico.

    I guess the question is to pass a suitability of insurance survey, the boat needs to be structurally sound I imagine right? If there are broken frames throughout the boat I imagine this would not pass their inspection. Is this thinking correct?

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    You don't say whether you have had a survey of the vessel already, but I would think that you need a survey to advise you what work is required.
    Looking at those photo's, I'm not sure that the cracked frames are your biggest concern.
    This same survey could be put in front of an insurance company.

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacko View Post
    You don't say whether you have had a survey of the vessel already, but I would think that you need a survey to advise you what work is required.
    Looking at those photo's, I'm not sure that the cracked frames are your biggest concern.
    This same survey could be put in front of an insurance company.

    Is this to say that there are bigger concerns than the broken frames or that the broken frames are not as big of a deal as I’m making them out to be and I have a better boat than I’m thinking I do?

    Note, there are more broken frames than I’ve shared so far. Having a problem uploading the photos due to limited bandwidth at the moment

    I did get two surveys before buying both kind of saying it was a lot but at the same time possible. I will try to dig them up and share those on this thread as well.

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Good and bad. Actually, no - mostly bad, but maybe not terminal.

    If the fasteners are in good shape that's a huge plus. Bronze would be good. Monel would be fantastic. I'd still have an actual fastener inspection done while she is out of the water to be sure.

    Others with more experience here may correct me, but I think those frame cracks are just tension fractures, not impact or crushing damage. Not unusual in steam-bent oak frames. They can likely be sistered with partial frames just covering a few planks on either side of the break. We did that for a few similarly cracked frames on our boat a few years ago. The sisters could be steam-bent, laminated or sawn.

    You won't get hull insurance without a survey that states the boat is seaworthy but you *might* find someone to give you liability-only, port risk insurance if she will be kept out of the water while you do the work. You might try State Farm for that, although they may not insure a boat that large without a survey, even for port risk.

    I was the guy that "spent ten years trying to rebuild this boat that was already in the water and operational to start with, and it ends up in the scrap heap". I made a lot of mistakes with that project. Actually I think I made all the mistakes. If I had to do it over I would have done things very differently. Hindsight and all that. Every project is different, every boat is different, but a few things I would offer from my experience.

    - If you don't have an unlimited budget, learn to do as much as possible yourself. If you hire a professional, try to find people who will let you do the grunt work while they do the skilled bits. and learn as much as you can from them. I made the mistake of just hiring someone and having them do a lot of the work alone. I would have been much better off doing more of the work myself.

    - Storage costs are the back breaker for a large boat project. I ran out of money more because of yard costs than professional services. I could ask the shipwright doing the work to down tools whenever the money ran short but the yard storage bills never stopped. If you have a place to put the boat that won't cost you much then the project becomes more doable because you can take as much time as you need.

    - Know when to stop, or pause. Have defined goals for each phase of the project and don't go beyond them. You will encounter things you were not expecting but stick with the plan instead of immediately reacting to every new challenge by expanding the project to include the new work too.

    - Keep the boat under cover while you do the work. And not just under tarps, but in a good covered workspace. Getting the boat out of the weather will save you far more money than the cost of the shelter.

    - Oh, and keep a restoration thread here if you do proceed. Partly because I like big boat restoration threads and we don't get very many of them, but more importantly because keeping a thread going is a good way to keep your motivation for the project. And also because the members here are good at cushioning the inevitable disappointments and cheering the successes. Both of which make the work lighter.

    Good luck either way!
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    The concerns I can see are that the centreline timbers and connections to the planking look pretty ropey with chunks missing etc.
    When did she last float without the aide of bilge pumps?
    From reading here it is a matter of when, not if your oak frames crack/rot out.
    Those frames a pretty beefy too, so will take some work to replace.
    Working undercover is such a bonus.
    My yacht Haumuri went into a shed for 3-4 days right at the end of a 2.5 year haulout to get the deck paint done. I got more done in those 4 days than in the previous 4 weeks probably.
    Being able to work under lights at night and dry was pure luxury.
    It was $120/day rather than $20/day in the yard, but worth it.

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacko View Post
    You don't say whether you have had a survey of the vessel already, but I would think that you need a survey to advise you what work is required.
    Looking at those photo's, I'm not sure that the cracked frames are your biggest concern.
    This same survey could be put in front of an insurance company.

    I had two surveys to help evaluate whether to purchase. Here are the findings of each:

    1.
    "In reference to: Survey of the vessel AWAB. A 1959 Sparkman & Stephens 55’ Wooden
    Motorsailer. Design # 1459


    On June 27, 2020... survey of the vessel AWAB for possible purchase.
    We... went over the bottom together removing fasteners and sounding
    the bottom as we went along. The fasteners were found in acceptable condition at this
    time but areas at the stem and the stern area will need refastening. We found some
    planking at the stem that will need to be replaced and found the stem to be damaged from
    a hard strike where a portion of it will need replacing. This means removal of some
    planking at the stem to gain access for proper replacement. There was an area which is
    located under the generator that will need repair and replacement of two planks. The
    generator may need to be moved for proper repairs.
    We moved to the interior of the vessel to inspect the frames and structural integrity of the
    hull interior. There were twelve to fourteen broken frames. Much of all the interiobr /> cabinetry etc. will have to be removed for proper repairs, very limited access otherwise.
    The cockpit was also found to be in need of some major replacement of structural support
    as the cockpit area has drooped down on one side. The main cabin area overhead was
    shown to have some major rot and damaged support framing. Much of the deck is noted
    to be leaking. The teak seams will need to be reefed out and redone along with some
    refastening. The topsides are in need of major cosmetic work, sanding, prepping and
    painting. The mast and rigging should be removed for full inspection. This boat is in need
    of a major refit at this time. The interior bilge and hull area will need a complete cleaning
    and flushing of fuel and oil from the engine leaking...As I told you, This will be a complete labor of love."

    2.
    "After looking over AWAB and considering her history, design, and general condition I would say she is a worthy project. Big, but worthy. There is a lot to do to get her really top notch, but i think that there is enough good boat there to justify it. My assessment and recommendations are centered around the structural integrity and seaworthiness of the boat. Fancy interiors are nice and comfortable but I prefer to value boats on their bones. After all, it's about sailing not sitting in the cabin.


    Items for repair
    - The stem has suffered some sort of trauma, cracked in two places and has some poorly fit repairs. I recommend a full stem replacement. This would include a delve into the bulwarks and chocks on the deck which are busted as a result of the same trauma.
    -The sheer plank to starboard has rotten completely though in the bow. recommend a partial replacement
    -The boat is due for a refastening, reef out, and recaulking.
    -all but a few of the through hulls need to be replaced as they have corroded past their useful life. This is a safety issue.
    -planking and framing around the bow thruster needs to be addressed and replaced as necessary
    -the deadwood has lots of worm damage. recommend a further investigation and possible replacement.
    -the bottom planking to starboard has goos and shmoos smeared all over it to hide something, i belive it to be the worm damage referenced by the owner here https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-87161.html
    i recommend replanking this section of her bottom.
    - we know of some cracked framing amidships port and starboard, some frames aft, and a few forward. there will likely be a few more if you really dig into her. I recommend sistering with sawn or laminated frames or steaming in new frames.
    -the planking at the stern was covered by bronze strapping which was beginning to pull away. you will likely need some minor repair. in this area.
    - The aft cockpit area is falling into the boat. it needs to be removed, reframed and replaced. I see this as a safety at sea issue.
    -There is rot in the carlins and deck framing of the cabin house caused by leakage. I recommend the removal of the house and a reframing of that area of deck and the replacement of the primary bulkhead between the aft cabin and after cockpit. While the house is off the issues with the house sides and top can be addressed with partial replacement and repairs.


    I think that covers the big stuff. I cant speak to the engine or generator, but judging by the maintenance and level of workmanship ive seen elsewhere i would be weary. The rig looked ok but again pieces were missing and hardware was broken all over the boat so its hard to give it a great valuation grading.


    There is a lot of work to be done to make her a gem again, but there is enough of her left to make it doable at a reasonable cost."

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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Good and bad. Actually, no - mostly bad, but maybe not terminal.
    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post

    If the fasteners are in good shape that's a huge plus. Bronze would be good. Monel would be fantastic. I'd still have an actual fastener inspection done while she is out of the water to be sure.

    Others with more experience here may correct me, but I think those frame cracks are just tension fractures, not impact or crushing damage. Not unusual in steam-bent oak frames. They can likely be sistered with partial frames just covering a few planks on either side of the break. We did that for a few similarly cracked frames on our boat a few years ago. The sisters could be steam-bent, laminated or sawn.

    You won't get hull insurance without a survey that states the boat is seaworthy but you *might* find someone to give you liability-only, port risk insurance if she will be kept out of the water while you do the work. You might try State Farm for that, although they may not insure a boat that large without a survey, even for port risk.

    I was the guy that "spent ten years trying to rebuild this boat that was already in the water and operational to start with, and it ends up in the scrap heap". I made a lot of mistakes with that project. Actually I think I made all the mistakes. If I had to do it over I would have done things very differently. Hindsight and all that. Every project is different, every boat is different, but a few things I would offer from my experience.

    - If you don't have an unlimited budget, learn to do as much as possible yourself. If you hire a professional, try to find people who will let you do the grunt work while they do the skilled bits. and learn as much as you can from them. I made the mistake of just hiring someone and having them do a lot of the work alone. I would have been much better off doing more of the work myself.

    - Storage costs are the back breaker for a large boat project. I ran out of money more because of yard costs than professional services. I could ask the shipwright doing the work to down tools whenever the money ran short but the yard storage bills never stopped. If you have a place to put the boat that won't cost you much then the project becomes more doable because you can take as much time as you need.

    - Know when to stop, or pause. Have defined goals for each phase of the project and don't go beyond them. You will encounter things you were not expecting but stick with the plan instead of immediately reacting to every new challenge by expanding the project to include the new work too.

    - Keep the boat under cover while you do the work. And not just under tarps, but in a good covered workspace. Getting the boat out of the weather will save you far more money than the cost of the shelter.

    - Oh, and keep a restoration thread here if you do proceed. Partly because I like big boat restoration threads and we don't get very many of them, but more importantly because keeping a thread going is a good way to keep your motivation for the project. And also because the members here are good at cushioning the inevitable disappointments and cheering the successes. Both of which make the work lighter.

    Good luck either way!



    What to do if the cracked in the frames are behind the bilge stringer? I suppose one must figure out a way to slide it back behind there and fasten only outside of the stringer where you can reach...

    Fortunately storage costs around here are not really much of a concern - I saw in port Townsend how it was like 1200-1600/month for outdoor uncovered storage, which seemed crazy... here on the eastern shore of VA, my outdoor storage cost is only $385/month. And the yard with a building in MD where I would like to take it only costs $550/month, which seems very reasonable to me - low enough that it seems better than building an structure around such a large boat would cost quite a bit by my figures. So if that is the back breaker, Im still in the game. I was worried more about the vastness of the actual work, and my need to hire skilled work as I don't have the skills myself yet, and am only one person, and surely more hands make most work more possible and more efficient. The problem is that where I am has really no resources for a wooden boat. Im all on my own and no one to help. There is a $30 bridge and its like an hour and a half drive for someone to come here. So I really want to move the boat somewhere where there is more support and access to what is needed...

    The engine does run fine, as does the generator, they were in fact maintained very well by the previous owner. I wanted to launch and motor to another place. But then this issue of insurance. Im not at all concerned with hull insurance - as I understand it, that is to insure the loss of the boat. But what I do feel I need in order to go in the water, and motor through the harbor and up the Chesapeake, is
    protection and indemnity insurance... I would need insurance to protect if I had a freak accident and ran into a $30 Million yacht, or likely worse, sank in the middle of the harbor or somewhere else that they would come after me for removal and lost business due to the obstruction.

    Getting to a covered workspace has been my #1 priority but so far, I am still sitting in the same place and stumped how to accomplish this.

    I appreciate all the wonderful advice everyone is contributing. I suppose the best advice will be whether or not to proceed at all. I have supplied the surveys and below I will link to a number of albums I made to organize the photos I have to show the condition of the boat as best I can.






  22. #22
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    Nov 2010
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Ouch, all that will keep you busy!

  23. #23
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    Sep 2020
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    Eastern Shore VA
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    How cool this boat is https://photos.app.goo.gl/Fp5X2FaE5eCap6PE7

    Whole boat views: https://photos.app.goo.gl/8Kh8KwW315GYoYPz5

    Stem: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ExbDomtwvbDNa2V99

    Hull exterior points of interest: https://photos.app.goo.gl/H4wZjazkdPsjc5Ar8

    Mast Step and Keel - you can see a check in the mast step, but also under that, in the lower part of the picture you can see a check in the keel timber, is this a concern? : https://photos.app.goo.gl/17gNgvvtSnL7Xkj99

    Rotten Deck beam in aft cabin closet: https://photos.app.goo.gl/o9BddZXMmaN1BNtH6

    Some of the Broken/Cracked Frames: https://photos.app.goo.gl/9Qf2hNyQ4GYtuPW68

    Where the pilot house meets the deck and is rotting: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dMkvFLBKeTehmkMx7

    A couple blueprints that show the layout, and where the bronze strapping runs around the hull, I'm assuming to reinforce the structure:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/iPXSniTAWGdpRuJu8

    Where the bronze strapping, and presumably its anchor to the keel timber was cut away to make room for bow thruster: https://photos.app.goo.gl/bKjFgSWyVpYC9LjT9

    Fastener inspection: https://photos.app.goo.gl/HP6wdFLwtjsUJ1y59

    Aft Cabin Rot: https://photos.app.goo.gl/YMauhsdeKZ4Eagw89

    Sagging Cockpit: https://photos.app.goo.gl/LXT9TNXYNno9mv8t6

    Lazarette: https://photos.app.goo.gl/1V4Sen8QNkfvxHAZ7 In this stern section, many of the frames are cracked behind the bilge stringer. Also the bulkhead between the aft cabin and this space, constructed of plywood, is rotting which is visible in one of the photos in this album.

    Aft cabin bilge and where prop shaft exits. There is a wedge of wood to the right of this that has rotted. I dug at it and you can now see a fastener that was inside this mushy piece of wood : https://photos.app.goo.gl/uhQ2Mguog1ivzuCbA


    Also, I want to note, that while one of the surveys says that the deck leaks extensively, but let me clarify. From what ive observed from being on the boat when its raining, It leaks at the corners of the pilot house, and around the forward hatches, and definitely by the doorway from deck into pilot house - this area does leak extensively thus leading to the rotten deck beams you can see in the aft closet. This area would need to be reefed and re-caulked, and sure there are a few areas that look bad but otherwise, at least a decent amount of it seems to be fine. It may be leaking along the outer edge, as in some places you can see a bit of water dripping down the interior of the hull in a few places, but overall the deck actually seems to be pretty dry other than the areas mentioned.

    So this is about the best representation I can give of the condition of the boat. Thoughts? Thanks

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacko View Post
    The concerns I can see are that the centreline timbers and connections to the planking look pretty ropey with chunks missing etc.
    When did she last float without the aide of bilge pumps?
    From reading here it is a matter of when, not if your oak frames crack/rot out.
    Those frames a pretty beefy too, so will take some work to replace.
    Working undercover is such a bonus.
    My yacht Haumuri went into a shed for 3-4 days right at the end of a 2.5 year haulout to get the deck paint done. I got more done in those 4 days than in the previous 4 weeks probably.
    Being able to work under lights at night and dry was pure luxury.
    It was $120/day rather than $20/day in the yard, but worth it.

    Not sure when last without bilge pump. Been sitting on hard for 2 years now.
    What do you mean centerline timbers and connections to the planking look ropey with chunks missing? Are you referring to how there seem to be gaps between where the frames meet the keel timber?

  25. #25
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    Apr 2012
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    319

    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    $550 per month x 12 months per year x 10 years = $66,000.

  26. #26
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    Nov 2010
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    The stem and keel deadwood rot, collision and worm damage is the centreline reference. The planking attachment to those timbers doesn't look great either. The 2 surveys mention these things too.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Underbuilt,under FRAMED from the git go.
    This vessel should have had double sawn or laminated frames from new.
    Building a new boat will be faster and cheaper than getting this one back.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Wongawallan Oz
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    16,576

    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    If everyone listened to those on this forum who told them that their boat wasn’t worth saving this forum wouldn’t have any reason for existing because no-one would ever restore a boat.

    I disagree with Bruce/Wizbang.....again....(and I swear I don’t do it on purpose Bruce) because, aside from needing a large workshop to build a new boat if this size unless you’re building on the beach in the Carribean, I don’t see anything in these photos or in either if the surveys that can’t be fixed.

    I do see a lot of work over a long duration (longer than you can honestly forecast) and I do see a lot of cost involved......but if you’re prepared for that (as you appear to be) and are ready for more surprises as you pull things apart you will ultimately have a gorgeous and comfortable boat that everyone on here and everyone who sees her will be extremely envious of.

    There’s a wealth of knowledge on this forum and it is a terrific resource, particularly for anyone contemplating buying a wooden boat and wanting to know what to look out for and for anyone repairing or building a boat and needing advice.

    But I find it sad that so many here are quite happy to try and shoot down someones dream after it’s quite apparent that they’ve already bought the boat (as I gather WhiteRabbit has) and are determined and eager to go ahead with it. For me, at least, that’s the stage where encouragement and objective, actionable advice are most valuable and most appreciated.


    To that end and for starters:

    I’d be suggesting that, as well as getting the rig off of her and getting a decent cover over her to stop any more rain getting in and to allow you to work without interruption from the weather, the first thing you might consider doing is hiring a 40’ shipping container to park beside the boat and start emptying everything worth keeping out of the boat and into the back half of the shipping container, keeping the front half for materials, tools and a kettle.

    Get rid of anything not worth keeping and get yourself clear access to all of your frames and hull planking throughout so that you can clean and strip them down to visible wood inside and out to see what you are dealing with. I’d suggest stabilising and repairing the hull is your first priority, that worm damage sounds like the most scary issue as it could be well into the framing as well.

    Photograph everything as well as you can as it’s coming out to help you later with the rebuild. You might not replicate what’s there but you’ll be surprised how useful those photos can be as the rebuild progresses, for example remembering what certain through-hull fittings were used for.

    Check that the hull is sitting level fore and aft and laterally. It’ll help considerably later.

    Brace the hull internally where you might remove any structural elements such as deck frames or bulkheads so that she doesn’t loose shape. She may even already be out of shape and need coaxing back into shape but you can check that against the plans that you have and with plumbs and laser levels etc.


    I don’t see any mention of the engine or any other equipment in the surveys, what sort of condition is the engine in? Does it need much work and, if so, Is it worth lifting it out to have it worked on while giving you clearer access to the hull under it? Does she come with any sails and, if so, what sort of condition are they in? You may think about getting them out and taking them to a sail maker for inspection and repair, or at least cleaning them and drying them properly before putting them away again (somewhere sealed and secure where they can’t be molested by rodents).

    I see the rig (spars and rigging) mentioned in the surveys as needing inspection but be aware that the rigging itself, ie the cable, turnbuckles etc holding the masts up, can’t really be confidently inspected by a visual inspection. For example you can’t see what might be going on with cables under turnbuckles and fittings. Insurance companies (here in Australia at least) won’t accept a rig survey for insurance, they require the rigging to be replaced every 10 years.

    Do you have a handle yet on what else she is going to need once you have the boat itself operational again? Fresh water and sewage systems (black and grey water), electronics and navigation, electrical systems, safety equipment, drive train, repainting and so on? It’d be worth getting your head roughly around all of that and an understanding of what sort of budget you’ll need to set aside.

    I really can’t overemphasise how much longer things take on a boat rebuild than you might expect, so don’t set yourself unrealistic deadlines that might start stressing you when you realise that you can’t meet them ('talking from my own experience....you may be a quicker or more effective worker than me).

    And above everything, remember why you are doing it and remind yourself to enjoy it all the way!!!
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    The deck is a relatively easy thing to replace.
    start at the start, pull off the deck, get stuff out of your way. Work hard, dispair, and not too far in the future - you turn a corner where you're putting more back in than you're taking out. That means you're almost half way.
    then one day, the deck'll be back on.

    i think you gotta get a good cover over this.
    there's too muck work to be done with her belly open, and lots of parts to be stored safe and dry.

    Really gorgeous boat.
    if you get her floating she'll be a go anywhere boat. A thing of dreams.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    I think the recent article in Woodenboat #281 about the rebuild of Sir Isaac is a good description of the reality of rebuilding a large boat on your own. That couple committed 100% of their free time and resources to the project over a decade or more. They lived at the shop. It is now their life savings. It can be done as long as your eyes (and wallet) are wide open.

    Brian

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    She will always be a poorly built old carvel boat.

  32. #32
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    Feb 2012
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Tally Ho comes to mind also.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Greg, I have never promoted building a boat on the beach, I think those boats kin a suck, and I’ve said so. That does not stop folks from dropping a hundred grand or more on them for a taste of the romance however.
    The same infrastructure will be needs for re building as building, but there will not be 1000 hours of prep work, and 5 dumpsters full of 60 year old junk.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by White River View Post
    Tally Ho comes to mind also.
    Well there you go. Leo could have been sailing by now if he had not spent 3 years goin backward.
    Perhaps a good plan would be to study up on video making , launch a YouTube channel, but to get an edge on Tally ho and Arrabella , get a pretty girl to sop and feature her in all the thumbnails.

  35. #35
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    Feb 2012
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    Default Re: Sistered Frames Wooden Boat Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Well there you go. Leo could have been sailing by now if he had not spent 3 years goin backward.
    Perhaps a good plan would be to study up on video making , launch a YouTube channel, but to get an edge on Tally ho and Arrabella , get a pretty girl to sop and feature her in all the thumbnails.
    Now Rediviva comes to mind lol

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