Forging hardware with 316/316L stainless

[ocean]

Quick edit note: I couldn't find 316 or it was too expensive, so I switched this project to 304 stainless!

Hi all,

I've got access to a small blacksmithing shop as well as a bit of blacksmithing experience and I've been wondering about the feasibility of forging my own cleats & fairleads out of 316 or 316L stainless. It would be much cheaper than buying them for sure.

I was wondering whether anyone here has tried this before, or has experience with treating/finishing stainless steel after it's been forged to make sure it doesn't deteriorate when in contact with water. It would be on a tiny sailboat without any electrical. I've been looking around and people talk of iron contamination & processes called passivation. Does anybody have a good trustworthy source on this?

Would be thankful for any information

[Thad]

SS doesn't deteriorate from contact with water, it deteriorates when starved of oxygen when moving through a salt water environment. Cleats and fairleads will be significantly above saturated wood in most applications. As to savings forging your own SS parts, that's another issue. Have you done SS forging?

[ocean]

Thanks for the reply! This boat will be sailing the rivers of Western PA, so I don't believe salt water will be an issue. That assuages some of my fears for sure!

I've forged plenty of mild steel & some tool steels like EN8/EN9, which I believe might have designations 1035 and 1045 in the USA. I've not forged stainless before. Torbjörn Åhman on YouTube has forged 316L into a fitting for a wooden boat restoration project. It appears to have been quite successful! From what I've found, 316 seems to have higher carbon (like tool steels), while 316L has a lower amount of carbon. If the effects of carbon in regular steel apply to stainless, I would expect 316L to be more malleable under heat than 316.

It also appears that both 316 and 316L are industrially forged at roughly the same temperatures that regular steels are forged.

So far this feels promising. I can get 316 on ebay but will call a local supplier I can drive to & see what prices they get for 5/8" square. My boat will be a small 14 footer so I don't expect to need anything much stronger than that.

Are there any specific challenges of forging 316/L compared to other steels that you were thinking about?

[Peerie Maa]

I hear that even at forging heat, stainless is very tough to work.
AFAIK cleats and fairleads are normally cast, the shapes are too complex to forge.

[Thad Van Gilder]

WE have plenty of bronze foundries in Pa.... why not just cast hardware in bronze?

[wizbang 13]

...or wood.

[ocean]

WE have plenty of bronze foundries in Pa.... why not just cast hardware in bronze?

Interesting suggestion! I'm a first time boat builder & generally looking to keep costs down for now. I really like the idea of bringing together as many of my skills & practices into this as makes sense. This would be a lovely excuse to get some nice fittings for cheaper and fire up the forge for the first time in a while. It would be lovely to look at the installed fittings & remember I made those as well, rather than ordering them from somewhere else.

...or wood.

Also interesting! I thought a bit about it, but I guess I was thrown off a little by not having nearly enough information to know how to proceed. Do you have any sources on making wooden fittings? Particular types of wood, forms, tools, etc? My boat will be a 14' plywood skiff. Should I be concerned by needing larger fittings in wood than I might need in steel?

Thanks in advance for any pointers towards more information!

[cstevens]

"First time boat builder", "14' plywood skiff", "save costs", "diy forging stainless fittings". Somehow all of those statements don't add up for me. If I was building a 14' plywood skiff on a budget I would be trolling ebay and craigslist for fittings. Now if someone said "I have a forge and I'm really itching to try it out, what can I make?" that would be a different story. Also there are several very detailed threads on bronze casting here on the forum. Worth perusing if only for the really lovely work on display.

[ocean]

"First time boat builder", "14' plywood skiff", "save costs", "diy forging stainless fittings". Somehow all of those statements don't add up for me. If I was building a 14' plywood skiff on a budget I would be trolling ebay and craigslist for fittings. Now if someone said "I have a forge and I'm really itching to try it out, what can I make?" that would be a different story. Also there are several very detailed threads on bronze casting here on the forum. Worth perusing if only for the really lovely work on display.

I'm not sure I understand. That's the second time folks have mentioned bronze - isn't it significantly more expensive than stainless?

My goal is a sailboat that can fit at least two people, hence the 14' plywood skiff. Here was my thought on saving costs: I can run my forge for ~$1 an hour and don't expect each cleat to take more than one or two hours, and a quick check online puts the cost of 1/2" square 316 under $15 per linear foot. I'd estimate I could get 3-4 cleats out of that amount of material (plus some fun to boot!). I'm having a very hard time finding any single bronze cleat on Ebay for under $30, or two 316 cleats for $15 being the cheapest.

These are from some relatively quick searches, so maybe I'm searching wrong or missing a big part of the equation!

[Peerie Maa]

Also interesting! I thought a bit about it, but I guess I was thrown off a little by not having nearly enough information to know how to proceed. Do you have any sources on making wooden fittings? Particular types of wood, forms, tools, etc? My boat will be a 14' plywood skiff. Should I be concerned by needing larger fittings in wood than I might need in steel?

Thanks in advance for any pointers towards more information!

Any hard wood. Oak or a monogamy substitute will do it. There will be plenty patters for cleats if you do an online search. A fairlead for a sheet is basically a dod of wood with a hole in it, wide enough to take four fastenings. A mooring fairlead is basically a large thumb cleat.
For tools an auger about an inch for the cleats and less to suit the line size for the fairleads. Jig saw, band saw or old school bow saw. Spoke shaves or rasps for shaping.

[ocean]

Oak or a monogamy substitute will do it.

Definitely into the monogamy substitutes here

But in seriousness, thank you for the leads - I don't have any hardwood on hand but I believe there's a nice thick piece someone threw away not far from where I'm at. That could become some useful pieces rather than some rotting trash It might just be the right size too. I'll see if I can't pick it up soon, and spend some time looking for those patterns online!

And I do have a spoke shave that needs an excuse to get sharpened too

Thanks again!

[J.Madison]

I, for one, think you should give it a try and report back. I don't think anybody else here has experience home forging stainless. Maybe a reason for that, but let us know. If it fails all cleats and chocks can be made from your wood scraps for free.

[Mcjim]

I agree, give it a go. I've hammered a few small things out of stainless, not much more than forming hooks, and flattening bar out to form flats for mounting holes. Once hot it was a bit harder to work than mild steel but on a 14' boat I don't expect you will be doing anything very large.
Probably the hardest bit is to get a nice looking surface finish.

Have at it.

Mike

[Canoeyawl]

I have forged quite a bit of bronze, it is beautiful stuff to work with

[Larks]

If you’ve got experience in blacksmithing you’d likely know that forging knives in stainless steel knives is quite common, I have done a couple myself (though not in 316, I use 440 for knives) and had no difficulty with shaping the SS on the anvil. I’ve not yet had any success forging bronze.....it seems to be very temperamental to what heat you try and forge at and I haven’t been able to get that right.

It’d be quite feasible and I think quite interesting to forge your cleats in 316SS and there are plenty of resources on the web to reference for help with heat treatments and pickling and passivation.

Here’s a basic one as a start that I just found after a very quick look but which looks useful, albeit brief: http://www.steelforging.org/stainless-steel-forging/

I haven’t searched these guys specifically for SS forging but in the past I’ve found answers here on almost everything blacksmithing that I had questions on, so it may be worth your while browsing through their web site: https://www.anvilfire.com/index.php

Edited to add, here’s another link worth reading: https://forgingworld.com/forging-sta...te-guide-2021/

[IMG]IMG_0073 by Greg Larkin, on Flickr[/IMG]

[ocean]

Thanks all for the encouragement! It is being received with a smile

I called about 6 different places near me today, and absolutely no luck on the 316. It sounds like most of them don't keep it in stock, and those that can order it are asking $140+ for 4 feet of 5/8" due to freight. Most seem to stock 304, so I did a bit more reading and it appears that 316 is considered marine grade because of its higher resistance to seawater corrosion.

Since I'm hoping to stay on rivers & my fittings should remain mostly off the water, I'm guessing I'll take the plunge with 304, which seems to be in stock!

Larks, your signature seems to me very fitting at this moment! And I have kept my distance from bladesmithing, so I admit my ignorance with respect to what people make knives out of

Here's some of the stuff I've made over the years

189294_4507314158229_412887313_n.jpg

1934632_1119698709960_360561_n.jpg

signal-2020-02-27-114339_001.jpg

IMG_9007.jpg

IMG_9005.jpg

I'll hopefully make a little video log of the experience & share it with folks

[Garret]

Nice work! The leaf in the 1st photo really caught my eye.

[Larks]

Really nice work. For what you’re wanting to do it may be worth checking around scrap steel yards for scrap stainless steel, particularly for old propellor shafts. I don’t know how well prop shaft stainless can be worked, they are generally a duplex stainless and could be worth investigating as it’s supposed to be a stronger and more corrosion resistant stainless.

304 is resistant to atmospheric corrosion, certainly not suitable around salt water and I don’t know how well it would really go on a boat in a fresh water environment. If you do find some scrap SS a quick way to tell between 304 and 316 (or most of the more corrosion resistant stainless steels) is that 304 is magnetic, 316 is not.

And do read up on pickling and passivating, passivating essentially restores the corrosion resistance qualities to the surface after it has been heated - ie welded, cut, forged etc.

[wizbang 13]

Nice artistic metalwork, and it will be cool to use it on a mini pirate ship or a theatrical period boat with a black powder cannon and giant flags.
But on a 14 foot plywood skiff ?
3, 4 inch wood cleats. The boat may not even need fairleads .

[Peerie Maa]

I am thinking that a smith made cleat would look something like this

Which has no place on a boat, as it will eat the lines.
If you can forge something like this, and polish it where the rope bears

go for it.

These metal cleats

are OK for dock lines, but not recommended for hauling or rendering lines controlling the rig.

[Larks]

A much simpler option for a small boat, if you’re keen on using your blacksmithing skills, would be to forge them in mild steel and get them hot dip galvanised. That’d allow you to have a play around with a bit of artistic license and wouldn’t cost you to make a few mistakes before getting them galvanised. Hot dip galv’ would be plenty durable for boat cleats.

[Andrew2]

A much simpler option for a small boat, if you’re keen on using your blacksmithing skills, would be to forge them in mild steel and get them hot dip galvanised. That’d allow you to have a play around with a bit of artistic license and wouldn’t cost you to make a few mistakes before getting them galvanised. Hot dip galv’ would be plenty durable for boat cleats.

Usual problem with hot dip is minimum price at the dippers. Here it is around 80 euros with tax (20%) So doesn't sound 'cheap' for making a few fittings. I fabricate fairly often in SS, but forging sounds like very hard work. 304 should be OK in fresh water. My cleats on the 15ft are Iroko, but just the fore and aft mooring ones. Ermm, the halyard ones are plastic..

[Peerie Maa]

Usual problem with hot dip is minimum price at the dippers. Here it is around 80 euros with tax (20%) So doesn't sound 'cheap' for making a few fittings. .

If there is a fabricator near you who has stuff hot dipped, ask them to bundle your stuff in with theirs. That way, you only pay the basic price.

[AJZimm]

The OP is interested in forging cleats from SS, and it sounds like an interesting project.

Wood cleats have been mentioned as an alternative. I have made wood cleats for my boats using dimensions and shapes suggested by Schock. I find that I have saved the following text and images, I think from another forum thread on the subject, although I seem to have lost the link to the thread in question, so apologies to whoever wrote it, for my not attributing it properly:

"The diagram and chart follows one in Edson Shock's book about building small boats. His cleat has a slight "tumblehome" when viewed on end (4 degrees from vertical) and a slight upward curve to the horns which I couldn't draw and honestly don't see the need for. This is about the apex of my mechanical drawing skills, folks."


wood cleat dimensions diagram.jpg

wood cleat dimensions table.jpg

[NeilMB]

The OP is interested in forging cleats from SS, and it sounds like an interesting project.
"The diagram and chart follows one in Edson Shock's book about building small boats. His cleat has a slight "tumblehome" when viewed on end (4 degrees from vertical) and a slight upward curve to the horns which I couldn't draw and honestly don't see the need for. This is about the apex of my mechanical drawing skills, folks."

That table and the drawing are from the Cheap Pages, one possible link is http://web.archive.org/web/200402020...tl/cleats.html

[ocean]

That information on wooden cleats is more than I could've hoped for in case I decide to go that route. Thank you so much for sharing, AJZimm and NeilMB!!!

Between an annoying chisel cut on my wrist and my usual steel supplier not having 304 this is not going to get attempted just this weekend. I'll need to call other suppliers - I'm certain at least one or two or them said they had 304 in stock. Hopefully 5/8". Once I get my hands on it, I'll probably end up documenting an attempt to make a fairlead out of mild steel for practice, followed by 304.

I'm also hoping to make some oarlocks. The boat we're building is likely to get a rowing shake down cruise before she's got all the sailing hardware

Also thanks to the folks mentioning hot dipping. Definitely something worth considering, but just at this moment I don't know anyone & I'm tired of cold-calling businesses and trying to figure out what they can/can't do and have/don't have

[sp_clark]

Reliable supplier, probably has warehouse near you so you might avoid paying for shipping:

https://www.mcmaster.com/metals/stai...~rod-and-disc/

https://www.mcmaster.com/metals/stai...shape~hex-bar/

[Jfitzger]

This is my supplier,

https://www.coremarkmetals.com/316-s...teel-round-bar

They're local to me but they ship and it will cost less than half what McMaster does.

I can understand why you would to make hardware for the satisfaction of it but I can’t imagine it’s a good way to save money. I have two local places with piles of used cleats and sailboat hardware at good prices. Last week I picked up a mast sheeve in perfect condition for $8.

[ocean]

I can understand why you would to make hardware for the satisfaction of it but I can’t imagine it’s a good way to save money. I have two local places with piles of used cleats and sailboat hardware at good prices. Last week I picked up a mast sheeve in perfect condition for $8.

I'm brand spanking new to boat-building, so that probably accounts for not knowing a lot of those places. Without insider knowledge and experience in this, I'm at the mercy of figuring it out the way I know how at the moment What kinds of places stock that kind of used stuff? How would one look for them?

Also, check this out!

IMG_0420.jpg

That's 3ft of 5/8" square 304 for $48.76, plus ~$5.50 worth of fuel to get to Metal Supermarkets here in Western PA. That's ~$18 per foot of 5/8", which is a really good price. Most folks seem to stock 1/2" and have it cheap, but the price up to 5/8" is absurdly more expensive (as in, twice as expensive per foot in some places I could find it online).

Plus 3ft of O1 tool steel, which I'm hoping to forge into a punch that can work through 304. My current punch is 1035 IIRC, and even after quenching bends & dents far too easily. Excited to make some out of proper tool steel!

I've also had the experience of McMaster-Carr being much more expensive than local/smaller places. I don't doubt the quality of their stuff and have had them recommended to me often enough.

Anywhose, totally developed a random crush for the dude that was at the counter today, which rarely if ever happens to me with men, so I got to enjoy a nice fluttery feeling in my stomach all the way home The advantages of in-person shopping I guess!!!

The days have gotten colder, so a little bout of forging sometime soon is sounding pretty lovely. Hope to come back to you with some good information/pictures/videos sometime in the not too far future!

Really appreciate the time everyone has taken to share their wisdom!

[Larks]

I look forward to seeing what you do with it

[Garret]

Craigs List is a good place to look for parts. One example: https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/...361958918.html

eBay as well.

[ocean]

Went out to the forge today to make a punch out of O1 and a fairlead/deadeye out of stainless. I've got video of the process but it'll take me a bit to edit it. No good pictures, but I did take a quick screen capture of the video so I could have an excuse to give you all some news!

Screen Shot 2021-09-30 at 23.12.03.jpg

I hadn't forged in a year or so, so my body & skill definitely weren't all there, but heck, I made a small fairlead for a small boat in a couple hours' work! Might end up using this at the top of my mast for the halyard! The punch was a total loss - forging 1" tool steel round bar first thing after a year out of practice was definitely not the play Burnt the tip & it broke off. I'll come back to it.

I think after this might be a cleat, which isn't going to be too too different in construction!

All in all I'd call this a good initial success & I'm looking forward to heading back & making some more stuff!

Craigs List is a good place to look for parts. One example: https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/...361958918.html

eBay as well.

I wish I was in Philly! Apparently they have a tallship there you can volunteer at! Unfortunately I'm in western PA, and a quick search on craigslist didn't turn up more than a couple results. I'll keep looking & trying different keywords

[Larks]

I’ll look forward to seeing the video. What sort of treatment have you applied after forging?

[Canoeyawl]

Anywhere you use steel tooling the SS will rust...
Don't use a grinding wheel, disc or other tools (drill) that has worked steel or iron. Mark them and keep them separate.
Etched and passified after working will help

[ocean]

And here's the video.



Since folks here might not have a lot of exposure to blacksmithing, I figured I'd do a little more exposition & include basically every heat I took with the piece. Added chapters for ease of navigation, so it's easier to skip to the parts that tickle your fancy the most!

I’ll look forward to seeing the video. What sort of treatment have you applied after forging?

So far all I have done is quench it after forging. I read a bit more and I believe I will heat it up a fair amount and water quench it to prevent chromium precipitation (IIRC), which reduces rust resistance. See below for next steps!

Anywhere you use steel tooling the SS will rust...
Don't use a grinding wheel, disc or other tools (drill) that has worked steel or iron. Mark them and keep them separate.
Etched and passified after working will help

I am aware of this but I'm not looking to buy an entire new setup, which includes hammers, anvil, tongs, drills, discs, etc, for this project. I think I will have to live with some rust! I've seen folks use citric acid as a treatment afterwards, which is supposed to help. I will keep looking into it & see what I can do to mitigate rusting problems.