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Thread: Where is the line and do we cross it?

  1. #1
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    Default Where is the line and do we cross it?

    This is not a troll. I am honestly pondering this question.

    I got an email today from the MoveOn people. It says:

    Dear MoveOn member,

    Mike Lindell, the CEO of the MyPillow company, is one of the loudest voices amplifying QAnon conspiracy theories about Donald Trump.1 He's bankrolling MAGA rallies and appearing on Alex Jones' fringe podcast, promoting the same alternate reality that resulted in the deadly white supremacist-led insurrection on January 6.2

    It's unacceptable that Facebook is allowing Lindell to spend millions of dollars advertising on its platform, when he is still selling the Big Lie propaganda and pro-insurrection garbage that got Donald Trump banned from the platform.

    Earlier this year, after more than 275,000 MoveOn members signed a petition, Costco booted MyPillow products from all of its stores.3 Now, we can come together again to send a loud message to Facebook. And now is the perfect moment to strike: Even right-wing message machine Fox News has refused to run Lindell's ads promoting fringe conspiracy theories about made-up election problems.4 Let's keep holding him accountable by forcing Facebook to stop carrying his ads too.
    Here is what troubles me. I do believe that I have a right to spend my money where I want. When a corporate leader jumps into politics and starts talking trash, I have the right to boycott their product.

    I also think that I have the right to tell social media that they cannot spread lies.

    But I don't think I have the right to bully social media into dropping legitimate advertising simply because the guy who owns the company is a d1ck.

    Am I wrong? Isn't there a difference between spreading lies and legitimate advertising?
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    The calculus has all changed, with the blossoming of the internet/mass media, the reach these folks have. With that in mind - I'd love to see FB 'run through the chute', severely reined in. Too much damage with the current model.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Maybe political messaging on platforms explicitly designed to promote addictive behaviors is entirely harmful and should be reigned in across the board. I'd rather much more serious reform and regulation, but that seems like a low (and still impossible) bar.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Boycotts are age-old ways of applying pressure to firms, so that they will change their practices. The principle is to cut into the financial model of the firm, of course. When I was growing up and Nestle was doing grim things in their promotion of baby formula in the 3rd world, with deadly impacts for infants, my family boycotted. Not only Nestle's baby formula (which we didn't use), but anything else they sold. Nestle sold lots of products - just like Lindell sells actual pillows, not merely conspiratorial political BS. I didn't taste any wine from South Africa before the end of Apartheid either.

    This is much like any other boycott, targeting how Lindell makes his money, in an effort to pressure him to change his odious practices. If he just went back to selling pillows, fine. But if he's going to bankroll attempts to launch a coup, attacking his financial model is fair game. Just like Nestle.

    Boycotts in the past have pressured organizations - newspapers, print magazines, TV networks - to refuse advertising by some outfit which did odious things. With mixed success, but still. And the organizations themselves have refused on their own initiative to sell advertising to this or that outfit, looking at the potential impacts on their own bottom line. That's what FOX is doing right now to Lindell, but FOX has similarly refused in the past few months to run ads made by the Lincoln Project and MeidasTouch, for fear of alienating some of their audience.

    Pushing FB is fair game, IMO. Just like pushing FOX or NBC or the NYT or whoever.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    David G
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    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Z View Post
    Except, it's not "just like Nestle". Nestle had/has shareholders to answer to, who exert pressure when boycotts affect profits. Lindell is only accountable to himself.

    He's made his stand, and everyone knows it. So, no amount of advertising is going to convince a rational person to buy his crap. Likewise, the whackaddodles don't really need to see the adverts, because they're firmly on his side.

    So, again, as long as the adverts only push his crappy products, and not his warped politics, I say let him go broke spending on advertising.
    He's NOT just advertising his product. He's wanting to run ads for a 'cyber-symposium' promoting the 'stolen' election nonsense.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post



    But I don't think I have the right to bully social media into dropping legitimate advertising simply because the guy who owns the company is a d1ck.

    Am I wrong? Isn't there a difference between spreading lies and legitimate advertising?
    As a consumer you get to choose what products you use, that includes media companies. My view is that when a platform sells advertising space it is tacitly endorsing that product. If you think Facebook supporting Mike Lindell is a bad idea why not let them know? If you operate in the public sphere you have to accept responsibility for your actions, you are free to hold forth any opinion on any subject you might choose but with that you have to accept the blowback if you are in the wrong.
    Steve

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Latest logic. The reason there’s no evidence of election fraud is because the libs are so clever.
    The Algorithm Is Watching

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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    The MyPillow Guy Really Could Destroy Democracyhttps://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...merica/619593/

    The chief executive of MyPillow Inc., one of Fox News’s big advertisers, said he is pulling his ads from the network after a disagreement over a proposed commercial.

    Mike Lindell said he made the decision after Fox News declined to run a commercial linked to his efforts to promote his claims of widespread fraud in the 2020 presidential election. Security and election officials have said there is no proof of widespread election fraud.

    “It’s unfortunate Mr. Lindell has chosen to pause his commercial time on FOX News given the level of success he’s experienced in building his brand through advertising on the number one cable news network,” Fox News said in a statement. Fox didn’t say whether it blocked the ad.
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/my...?mod=home-page

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    But what about the X-Ray glasses sold in Boy's Life?

    Not that it's a viable answer, but the real solution is to educate people. Get back to me in 200 years on how that goes.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    My view is that those with opposing viewpoints are free to do like My Pillow does: buy an ad and trumpet a cause.

    Certainly boycott, send emails, protest, etc.

    But silence? I don't agree with that, even if I don't agree with the opinion.



    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Citizens have the right to ask a company not to run ads, and the company has the right to decide what to do in that respect. If a media outlet decides that running an ad isn't in their best interest, they should have a right to not run it.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    My opinion, which I believe I've voiced before, is whatever 'facts' an ad presents should be required to be accurate.

    People have the right to express their political opinions. They do not have the right to misrepresent matters of fact; that becomes 'fraud' which is a crime.

    I also find myself asking people who boycott a man who sells pillows because of political speech, if, instead of making a pillow he made a pill that cured cancer, would they boycott the pill?

    We've gotten this 'free speech' thing backwards. Fraud, libel, slander, and inciting violence are crimes. Voicing an opinion is one's right.

    I recall a boycott of Pepsi some years back because it sponsored a show some didn't approve of. Of course, on another night, Pepsi might sponsor their favorite show. So does one buy Pepsi only on certain days?

    Of course, one has the right to change the channel or not shop somewhere, but I'm not sure one has the right to prevent someone else from watching or shopping at a particular place.

    I've been a fairly lonely voice for over two decades in opining that we should no accept falsehoods, lies, misinformation, disinformation, or alternative facts as free speech in the political area or from 'news' outlets.

    I believe when an ad states a fact that's simply not true, it has crossed the line. Lying about one's political record is no different than a car dealer turning back an odometer. Neither is an ad that states as fact that which is not a fact.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    As a private citizen, I should not be required to take Mike Lindell's money to put a billboard for him in my yard and neither should Facebook.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Facebook is a conservative rube factory, they are never going to disrupt their gravy train.

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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Yep. I still don't buy French wine because of the atomic tests in the Pacific in the 1980s and 90s. It really ticked me off as being utterly useless for France, and merely poisoning a far-away place... And you know... there's lots of good wine from other places.

    I think we can all spend our money where it may have a tiny impact, not just try to save a penny.

    I do this. I will spend 10-20% more to avoid China products -- and also Walmart, which in Canada is a predatory invader.

    Often I can't succeed because there is no option, but I do try.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    We are at a time of existential peril. The clanging alarm bells should be ringing in your ears at a fever pitch by now. If they aren't... you haven't been paying attention.

    It is not time to worry about niceties, nor politesse. It is time to cleave to ethics, reason, principles of good governance, and the ideals of our founding fathers. Actually, it is past time... as I've saying right here for maybe a dozen years, and elsewhere for decades.

    Column: He warned democracy was in peril. And that was before the Capitol riot

    It’s not as if Tom Mann is happy to say I told you so.

    After decades as a leading expert on Congress and our fragile American experiment in democracy, Mann shed his impartiality and scholarly distance and co-wrote a clanging alarm of a book that said government was headed seriously off the rails.

    “It’s Even Worse Than It Looks” didn’t steer a middle course by blaming “both sides,” or countenance the “well, what about” school of reductive reasoning — as in, “Well, what about Hillary’s emails?” — which shrinks any difference between Democrat and Republican to the level of a schoolyard taunt.

    The problem, Mann and coauthor Norman Ornstein stated, was a Republican Party captive to its most unhinged elements.

    https://www.latimes.com/politics/sto...-gop-extremism
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    Yep. I still don't buy French wine because of the atomic tests in the Pacific in the 1980s and 90s. It really ticked me off as being utterly useless for France, and merely poisoning a far-away place... And you know... there's lots of good wine from other places.

    I think we can all spend our money where it may have a tiny impact, not just try to save a penny.

    I do this. I will spend 10-20% more to avoid China products -- and also Walmart, which in Canada is a predatory invader.

    Often I can't succeed because there is no option, but I do try.
    Do you avoid California wine too, on the same principle?

  19. #19
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Do you avoid California wine too, on the same principle?

    California was doing above ground nuclear testing in the Pacific in the 1980s?

    I didn't realize that California has a nuclear weapons program.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    As a consumer you get to choose what products you use, that includes media companies. My view is that when a platform sells advertising space it is tacitly endorsing that product. If you think Facebook supporting Mike Lindell is a bad idea why not let them know? If you operate in the public sphere you have to accept responsibility for your actions, you are free to hold forth any opinion on any subject you might choose but with that you have to accept the blowback if you are in the wrong.
    Not just as a consumer, either. I am the product that Facebook is selling to their advertisers. Or rather, targeted access to me. I like exercising what remaining agency I have over who gets that access to my eyes and brain.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    California was doing above ground nuclear testing in the Pacific in the 1980s?

    I didn't realize that California has a nuclear weapons program.
    You know that’s silly, as long as California is part of the US. And does it really matter which decade tropical paradises were pulverized into radioactive dust?


    The French no longer test, the US no longer test. So to not buy French wine, but to buy American wine makes little sense. Hence my question.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    #13: +1, sure.
    Gerard>
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    .
    Keep in mind that the social media outlets are businesses as well and have every right to pick and choose with whom they do business.
    " I am one of those white, common sense conservatives. I believe in science and I have not taken the shot.”
    -- Sarah Palin, 9/16/21

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Where is the line and do we cross it?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    My opinion, which I believe I've voiced before, is whatever 'facts' an ad presents should be required to be accurate.

    People have the right to express their political opinions. They do not have the right to misrepresent matters of fact; that becomes 'fraud' which is a crime.

    I also find myself asking people who boycott a man who sells pillows because of political speech, if, instead of making a pillow he made a pill that cured cancer, would they boycott the pill?

    We've gotten this 'free speech' thing backwards. Fraud, libel, slander, and inciting violence are crimes. Voicing an opinion is one's right.

    I recall a boycott of Pepsi some years back because it sponsored a show some didn't approve of. Of course, on another night, Pepsi might sponsor their favorite show. So does one buy Pepsi only on certain days?

    Of course, one has the right to change the channel or not shop somewhere, but I'm not sure one has the right to prevent someone else from watching or shopping at a particular place.

    I've been a fairly lonely voice for over two decades in opining that we should no accept falsehoods, lies, misinformation, disinformation, or alternative facts as free speech in the political area or from 'news' outlets.

    I believe when an ad states a fact that's simply not true, it has crossed the line. Lying about one's political record is no different than a car dealer turning back an odometer. Neither is an ad that states as fact that which is not a fact.
    I agree with you. With "freedom of speech" goes responsibility, and it appears that Lindell is not using that freedom in a responsible manner.

    John Welsford
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