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Thread: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

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    Default Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    NYT. Contemporaneous notes taken by DoJ senior officials, from a telephone call with Trump on Dec 27. As released to the Select Committee.

    Trump was informed that there was no evidence to support claims of corruption, certainly not sufficient to overturn the election.

    It didn't matter - Trump said to simply make the declaration, and leave it to Trump and his GOP allies to take it forwards to overturning.
    WASHINGTON — President Donald J. Trump pressed top Justice Department officials late last year to declare that the election was corrupt even though they had found no instances of widespread fraud, so that he and his allies in Congress could use the assertion to try to overturn the results, according to new documents provided to lawmakers and obtained by The New York Times.

    The demands were an extraordinary instance of a president interfering with an agency that is typically more independent from the White House to advance his personal agenda. They are also the latest example of Mr. Trump’s wide-ranging campaign during his final weeks in office to delegitimize the election results.


    The exchange unfolded during a phone call on Dec. 27 in which Mr. Trump pressed the acting attorney general at the time, Jeffrey A. Rosen, and his deputy, Richard P. Donoghue, on voter fraud claims that the department had disproved. Mr. Donoghue warned that the department had no power to change the outcome of the election. Mr. Trump replied that he did not expect that, according to notes Mr. Donoghue took memorializing the conversation.


    “Just say that the election was corrupt + leave the rest to me” and to congressional allies, Mr. Donoghue wrote in summarizing Mr. Trump’s response.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    “Just say that the election was corrupt + leave the rest to me” and to congressional allies, Mr. Donoghue wrote in summarizing Mr. Trump’s response.

    Those words. Right there.
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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    George Conway tweets:
    It literally would have been a crime for Trump merely to have ordered the acting attorney general to march down Pennsylvania Avenue with a "Trump 2020" flag. See 18 U.S.C. § 610.


    This is way beyond the pale and should be prosecuted.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    More Conway:
    To fail to prosecute this would be like having a law making it illegal to bring an unauthorized weapon into a federal building, and then failing to prosecute the guy who tries to drive a truck bomb into the building's garage.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    If anyone wants to try and argue that Watergate was a more serious attempt to subvert America's Constitutional processes, I'm all ears.

    I'm grateful that Trump was stupid enough to say such things in calls which included multiple DoJ officials on the line, some of whom were taking contemporaneous notes.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Tip of the iceberg.

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Scans of the handwritten notes from the call are here, posted on the House Oversight Committee's web page, from which a significant proportion were also reproduced in a typewritten fashion for easier reading.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Wonder if 'The Committee' has the brass ones to actually push prosecution. Might want to draft Liz to run point.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    74 million voted for him.

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Millions frankly don't care that he did these things - to be clear, this is conspiring to conduct a coup. Seeking to enlist the officials at the apex of the Department of Justice to do the coup.

    Millions see this as a necessary if regrettable set of actions, justified by the mere fact of keeping him in office, and denying office to those actually elected to hold it.

    This should result in the rather sudden implosion of not only Trump and his family, but of the GOP as currently led. But it won't. And that's more concerning still.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    In other stunning developments, the Treasury Dept.'s head lawyers have today released an opinion that the request for Trump's tax returns (tax years 2015-2020) is valid and lawful. And that the tax returns must be released to the Ways and Means committee.

    Migod.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    David Frum: Evidence of your massive tax fraud is a very good way to distract attention from evidence of your attempted overthrow of the US constitution.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    .
    The noose is tightening.
    " I am one of those white, common sense conservatives. I believe in science and I have not taken the shot.”
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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Yes, but all of those red hat morons have a legitimate grievance

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    In other stunning developments, the Treasury Dept.'s head lawyers have today released an opinion that the request for Trump's tax returns (tax years 2015-2020) is valid and lawful. And that the tax returns must be released to the Ways and Means committee.

    Migod.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN2F02FW

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Stonekettle observed that apparently the audit's finally over.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Does anyone think T**** was in the WH for four years and didn't take the opportunity to tidy up his taxes while he was running the IRS?

    I don't.

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dryfoot View Post
    Does anyone think T**** was in the WH for four years and didn't take the opportunity to tidy up his taxes while he was running the IRS?

    I don't.
    He was exonerated! I mean it’s obvious he abused the power of the office and was given a free pass by Republican enablers but we’re so far past reasonable standards for presidential behavior that it’s kinda irrelevant now whether he gets charged with criminal behavior. Although it would be interesting to see how far the whackadoodles in office will stick with him. Will they spin whataboutism till they’re dizzy?

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    That low humming noise you hear is the 'whataboutism' at full spin-stabilize mode . . . .

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Really not that interested but as an outside observer, are ' contemporaneous notes' even worth the paper they are written on , ?...."which included multiple DoJ officials on the line, some of whom were taking contemporaneous notes."

    Isn't that a bit like the police writing the confession ? Did nobody make an audio recording of this conversation?

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Contemporaneous notes are often introduced into evidence in court. Moreso when there are more than 2 people who were present, removing the possibility of a simple "he said-she said". It is entirely normal in government settings - for instance, I have frequently taken contemporaneous notes for my Deputy Minister this year for the countless briefings and teleconferences about COVID.

    A lot more efficient, actually, than compiling hours and hours of recordings- it's pretty simple to create an exec summary of a call, with relevant quotes, from a written document. Though I find it simpler to take notes and create those summaries on a keyboard, you'd be surprised how many senior executives still prefer pen and paper for their personal notes.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    Really not that interested but as an outside observer, are ' contemporaneous notes' even worth the paper they are written on , ?...."which included multiple DoJ officials on the line, some of whom were taking contemporaneous notes."

    Isn't that a bit like the police writing the confession ? Did nobody make an audio recording of this conversation?
    Exactly. You can have a dozen people testify under oath that they heard Trump say he was the one who killed Jane Doe, but until you have a voice or video recording of Trump openly saying "Yes, I'm the one who killed Jane Doe", it's meaningless as far as convincing the rabid R's.
    Trump is too smart for that. He speaks like a mobster, never saying he's going to burn your house down unless you do something for him. Instead, he asks you to do something and then just casually mentions that it would be a shame if your house burned down.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    TomF, I don't doubt all you said there, efficiency et al. Government settings , briefings, teleconferences, absolutely, but as Rich implies, wouldn't it be meaningless in a court of law or some situation where a degree of verifiable proof is required?
    And I'm not talking meaningles as far as RJ's rabid Rs go, just the usual twelve good people or panel of judges scenario.

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Exactly. You can have a dozen people testify under oath that they heard Trump say he was the one who killed Jane Doe, but until you have a voice or video recording of Trump openly saying "Yes, I'm the one who killed Jane Doe", it's meaningless as far as convincing the rabid R's.
    Trump is too smart for that. He speaks like a mobster, never saying he's going to burn your house down unless you do something for him. Instead, he asks you to do something and then just casually mentions that it would be a shame if your house burned down.
    they could see it with their own two eyes - as several Republican Congress critters did - and they’ll still lie. There is no bottom, the lieing is the point.

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Exactly. You can have a dozen people testify under oath that they heard Trump say he was the one who killed Jane Doe, but until you have a voice or video recording of Trump openly saying "Yes, I'm the one who killed Jane Doe", it's meaningless as far as convincing the rabid R's.
    Trump is too smart for that. He speaks like a mobster, never saying he's going to burn your house down unless you do something for him. Instead, he asks you to do something and then just casually mentions that it would be a shame if your house burned down.
    Sadly, that is true. There are some that nothing will convince. Polls recently showed 70% of registered Republicans are solidly trumpsters. That means 30% are not. As facts continue to come out, that may change to 65% and 35%. Maybe it reaches 50/50.

    Then the question becomes one of how the non trumpster Republican votes.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    TomF, I don't doubt all you said there, efficiency et al. Government settings , briefings, teleconferences, absolutely, but as Rich implies, wouldn't it be meaningless in a court of law or some situation where a degree of verifiable proof is required?
    And I'm not talking meaningles as far as RJ's rabid Rs go, just the usual twelve good people or panel of judges scenario.
    There are two types of court. A civil suit requires a lower burden of proof. My wish is not so much he does jail time, but that all of his and his family's assets are frozen and they suddenly become poor people.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Contemporaneous DoJ documents: Trump instructs officials to declare fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    ....... My wish is not so much he does jail time, but that all of his and his family's assets are frozen and they suddenly become poor people.....
    and a lot of other people, particularly here too, but its never going to happen. No matter how final his fiscal punishment may be, there's 75 million, as above, who will give him a buck through crowd funding etc. how many times has he been bankrupt ? its meaningless , look at the Remington case right now.
    after all these years if there isn't a ****eload of money, probably even genuinely earned through the legit businesses, stashed somewhere, I'll eat my cat. Magaman down on the bowery? skid row, soup kitchens. not ever.

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