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Thread: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

  1. #1
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    Default Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    I'm a bit confused. Some among us are quite violently opposed to government mandating wearing a mask, or maybe having to get vaccinated.

    Is the law that says I have to stop when the light is red an intrusion into my personal rights? How about the requirement one needs a license and insurance to drive? Is it a violation of one's personal rights that it's illegal to drive 90 mph when the speed limit is 65? Is that speed limit itself a violation of one's personal rights?

    The government, at several levels, mandates behavior in many ways, usually designed for the public good/welfare. Usually!

    So how does such a mandate designed to prevent the spread of a deadly virus get so much angry opposition?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    There are drivers who think that red lights and speed limits do violate their FREEDOM. They run red lights, cause accidents and exceed the speed limits.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    There are drivers who think that red lights and speed limits do violate their FREEDOM. They run red lights, cause accidents and exceed the speed limits.
    True, but relatively few. More, I think, drive without licenses. But not as many who use this excuse to not wear masks or get vaccinated, or oppose either being mandated.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Everyone thinks some government policy/law infringes on their rights. Some I agree with. Some I disagree with. Yes, I disagree with many government policies/laws. Most of them don't apply to me and are difficult for me to violate.
    Life is complex.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    If they are aware being infected potentially they could kill someone, directly or indirectly.
    That should attract some sort of sanction.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    I don't think governments or nation states have rights anymore. I thought world domination was forced upon us by the elites just like Klaus Schwab planned...
    "Deconstruction is not a method, and cannot be transformed into one" Jacques Derrida (19302004)

  7. #7
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    Default Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Beau had an interesting take on mandates. I think he is right.

    https://youtu.be/pFWzfCdhya0


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Tom Wilkinson; 07-23-2021 at 11:46 PM.
    Tom

  8. #8
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    Default

    Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905) established that mandatory vaccination laws are lawful.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaco..._Massachusetts

    Compagnie Francaise de Navigation a Vapeur v. Louisiana Board of Health (1905) established that involuntary quarantine (e.g., jail) is likewise lawful.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comp...oard_of_Health
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    They had to lock up Typhoid Mary because she ignored the rules.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Sydney has just had about 3.5 thousand ignore the rules whilst Delta is rampant in the city.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    I believe government regulations/laws are all put in place as a response to a problem; be it real or perceived.

    The government's job is to promote the general welfare. We finally agreed to not allow smoking inside public places. This is not all that different.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    None of the available vaccines have full approval with the US FDA. Until that happens there most likely won’t be vaccine mandates. When and if that occurs look to the military to enforce vaccination. It’ll start there followed by private employers.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    None of the available vaccines have full approval with the US FDA. Until that happens there most likely won’t be vaccine mandates. When and if that occurs look to the military to enforce vaccination. It’ll start there followed by private employers.
    Meanwhile, our local market, and other places, have replaced "masks must be worn" with "Masks optional"

    This disappoints me. I'd like to see "Masks or proof of vaccine needed to enter"
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    None of the available vaccines have full approval with the US FDA. Until that happens there most likely won’t be vaccine mandates. When and if that occurs look to the military to enforce vaccination. It’ll start there followed by private employers.
    It is a matter of semantics not safety.

    https://achi.net/newsroom/emergency-...not-in-safety/
    Life is complex.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    It's not very hard to find laws that are invasions of privacy, counterproductive, or even quite dangerous. The mandate for overpowered airbags in cars killed many people before being repealed; probation of alcohol; many drug laws, to name a few.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    It's not very hard to find laws that are invasions of privacy, counterproductive, or even quite dangerous. The mandate for overpowered airbags in cars killed many people before being repealed; probation of alcohol; many drug laws, to name a few.
    As I said, not all laws solve the problems they were intended to solve. They become laws because of a perceived need. Sometimes there's a real need.

    Isn't having to stop at a red light an invasion of one's personal rights?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    It surprises me that the refusal to get vaccinated is not framed as he free riding that it is. Those refusing to get immunized are socializing the costs of their private behavior. Avoidable COVId patients are using up healthcare resources that could be used for others with unavoidable needs, automotive trauma, end stage heart or kidney disease, etc.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    ^ This.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    As I said, not all laws solve the problems they were intended to solve. They become laws because of a perceived need. Sometimes there's a real need.

    Isn't having to stop at a red light an invasion of one's personal rights?
    That's an absurd comparison. Medical "rights" would include things like the right to suicide; access to drugs; religious beliefs (such as Christian Science, Islam). As I recall, "Typhoid Mary" was incarcerated for having the disease.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    If you choose not to be vaccinated then I think that you should also understand that I think that when you do catch it you should stay at home and not take up a hospital bed... After all, if you are smarter than the doctors and scientists then the last place you should feel safe would be a hospital!

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Bureaucratic approaches are always going to create as many problems as they 'solve' since they're more about re-framing issues than addressing fundamental issues. I'd prefer some more conversation on how mandates could be implemented and where the burden of enforcement falls. As an employer I'd rather not have the actual implementation of mandates be my issue to address and the lack of foresight in leadership has been a major problem throughout the pandemic.

    If anyone was actually worried about structural violence and dismantling systems of oppression we wouldn't be here in the first place. I have much stronger opinions about the draft than I do mandating vaccination. At least most of the anti-vax folks I've come across provide strong visual indicators that they're morons. Makes keeping my distance a bit easier.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    That's an absurd comparison. Medical "rights" would include things like the right to suicide; access to drugs; religious beliefs (such as Christian Science, Islam). As I recall, "Typhoid Mary" was incarcerated for having the disease.
    I think you misconstrue. Traffic lights and laws avoid accidents. Accidents often lead to injuries and ambulances and hospitals. No?

    What does one do to punish one who violated the law against suicide?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Government mandates, individual rights, and general welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by offbelayknife View Post
    Bureaucratic approaches are always going to create as many problems as they 'solve' since they're more about re-framing issues than addressing fundamental issues. I'd prefer some more conversation on how mandates could be implemented and where the burden of enforcement falls. As an employer I'd rather not have the actual implementation of mandates be my issue to address and the lack of foresight in leadership has been a major problem throughout the pandemic.

    If anyone was actually worried about structural violence and dismantling systems of oppression we wouldn't be here in the first place. I have much stronger opinions about the draft than I do mandating vaccination. At least most of the anti-vax folks I've come across provide strong visual indicators that they're morons. Makes keeping my distance a bit easier.
    I have to admit to mild annoyance at local businesses who have replaced "Masks REQUIRED" WITH "masks are optional"

    I'd like to see "Masks or proof of vaccine required"
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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