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Thread: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    It's analogous to what folks have actually meant when they spoke of the "death of God" at the end of the 19th Century - it wasn't about the presumed actual death of a deity, but of the cultural adherence in Europe and former European colonies to a moral framework defined by religious tenets, however much they were honored in the breach.

    This is something like the secular equivalent, I think. The abandonment of the discourse of what was once called "liberal democracy" - which aspired to Constitutional processes, rule of law, "fair" and objective electoral processes, etc etc. Again, frequently honored in the breach.

    This is a return to nihilism, and pre-Enlightenment dismissals of equity, and of sovereignty predominantly understood and displayed through social contracts.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Always informative, these discussions - a 'peek' into how folks are processing this issue. FWIW, I've pretty much given up trying to 'convince' folks to vax; those that haven't, won't, and are impervious to reason. They don't trust 'science'; they effectively don't trust me. And I ask them - if you don't trust me - why are you seeing me? Interesting times, eh?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    she has been tampered with
    Indeed. I'm looking for the tools to perform an intervention.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    wish i had the tool. have family needing the same help.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    You could try telling her that 97% of hospitalized COVID patients in the US are not vaccinated.

    If that doesn’t convince someone of the efficacy of the COVID vaccines nothing will.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    wish i had the tool...
    If I had a rocket launcher...
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    You could try telling her that 97% of hospitalized COVID patients in the US are not vaccinated.

    If that doesn’t convince someone of the efficacy of the COVID vaccines nothing will.
    Only when they’re ready to process it otherwise if they’re in the under 50 group they can rationalize the odds are in their favor.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    If I had a rocket launcher...
    one of these days...straight to the moon!

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    If I had a rocket launcher...
    From Bruce Cockburn's lips to God's ear?
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  10. #45
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    It is really about faith. We all come to our doubts and faiths at different speeds. If becoming a believer is hard and giving up a belief even harder.


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  11. #46
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    It is really about faith. We all come to our faiths with our doubts and at different speeds. If becoming a believer is hard and giving up a belief even harder.


    Dude its science, Covid DGAF about your faith
    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Actually Ted is right. What do you know for sure Joe. I mean for SURE? With all the misinformation and confirmation bias going around these days it takes a bus load of faith to get by.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Actually Ted is right. What do you know for sure Joe. I mean for SURE? With all the misinformation and confirmation bias going around these days it takes a bus load of faith to get by.
    I know this

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    Two things.
    The way the vaccines work is by introducing messenger RNA (not DNA as in GMO organisms) to the cytoplasm of the cells. It never gets into the nucleus where the DNA is. The information does not flow upstream from RNA to DNA. Acquired characteristics are not inherited; Lamarck and Lysenko have been discredited. This RNA is used as a template to make proteins usually associated with the virus, your immune system then mounts a reaction to these foreign proteins, and then stands ready to attack any similar proteins that may show up, i.e. the virus. The RNA is degraded by natural mechanisms in the cells. It never gets into the nucleus.
    Second, her nuclear DNA has been changed in many cells if she has ever had a viral disease, such as the flu. Viruses multiplly by inserting their DNA into the host's and then letting the host's DNA replicating mechanisms make many copies of it. That, in fact is just what the corona virus will do to her, insert its DNA into her genome to get multiplied, and may kill her in the process.
    As a bonus, almost all the plants she eats are already GMO organisms. Plants are very tolerant of changes to their DNA and often have incorporated extra DNA over time. If you look at them, most have an even number of chromosomes due to them doubling them. And there are numerous food organisms that are GMO by cross breeding, natural or human assisted: tangelos, corn, with lots of genes from wild teosinte, Santa Gertrudis cattle. Humans ourselves, as anyone who has used a
    DNA geneology service can tell you have genes from neanderthals.
    I hope you are able to convince her to get the shots. It would be a cruel irony if she got sick from a virus introducing DNA into her nuclear DNA because she did not want to expose herself to RNA.
    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    How do you know this, because somebody said it? Do you see what I am up against?

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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    How do you know this, because somebody said it? Do you see what I am up against?
    yoy aren’t up against an epistemological crisis. You are up against conspiracy mongering and kooks.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Links? She wants links? Tell her to Google "long haul Covid symptoms". If the resultant reading list does not compel her to get vaccinated, nothing will.

    So she will live a miserable fearful life until she too succumbs.
    Gerard>
    Langley, WA

    Don't believe Republican lies.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Here in this forum - most are believers in the best vaccines made available. It is like going to a church filled with full time Christians and asking if Jesus saves. Many will suggest death and damnation if ones path toward solid faith is not taken. Many will say is it worth the risk not to believe?

    Facts matter and respected opinions are required when discussing vaccine options to those with doubts and lack the faith that others have so strongly have. rational minds given good guidance will chose a path that works for them based on trusted sources and by reduced threat by example.

    Even npr is laying out the facts best they can collect them and show there is choice by odds when people work on their own truths. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...s-what-to-know


    You can get COVID-19 even if you're vaccinated, but it's rare and likely to be mild

    Bottom line: Don't panic. So far, research shows the current vaccines are holding up well against the delta variant. For instance, a June study from the U.K. found that the Pfizer vaccine is 96% effective against hospitalization from the delta variant after two doses.
    If you do get infected (which is not likely but possible), the vaccine should help you keep from getting seriously sick. "Breakthrough infections, they tend to be mild — they tend to be more like a cold," said Dr. Carlos del Rio, professor of medicine and infectious disease epidemiology at Emory University.
    "Those mild breakthroughs, according to a New England Journal study three weeks ago, are accompanied by lower viral loads and less — much less — symptoms," added Dr. Monica Gandhi, infectious disease physician at the University of California, San Francisco. In particular, the study "showed that if you get a mild breakthrough with any variant, you have a 40% lower viral load in your nose after vaccination than you do if you had a natural infection," she said.
    Severe cases among vaccinated people are possible, but extremely rare — the vaccines dramatically reduce the risk of serious illness that leads to hospitalization or death. And 97% of those currently hospitalized with COVID-19 are unvaccinated, according to Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 07-23-2021 at 01:53 PM.
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    How do you know this, because somebody said it? Do you see what I am up against?
    Do you realise the implications of what you said there? If you think that way then you can throw 90% of your formal education out of the window - it was just people telling you stuff
    Structures uninformed by geometry tend towards the ramshackle.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Why you are all assuming everyone who gets covid ends up in hospital and nearly dies.? Look at the deaths per capita percentage of confirmed infections, Look at the rate of infected who recover without any intervention. that statistic quoted in another post, ' 97% of hospitalised infected haven't been vaccinated. ' shock horror 98% of deaths from covid in western societies are in the 80 - 90 year old group.

    and read it there, not my opinion, 'the vaccine dramatically reduces the the risk of serious illness that leads to hospitalisation or death.' 96 % effective against hospitalisation from the Delta variant.. how many people are hospitalised due to Covid anyway. current figures for Portugal population 11 million 185 in hospital 65 in intensive care. ****, bad news for sure,
    Fine but I still in 18 months know noone personally who has had C19 plenty of hearsay and sure plenty of friends of friends. and the only deaths are even more extrapolated.

    This is undoubtedly a pandemic of colossal proportions, from the point of infections and ' long covid' but as a percentage of the population, ..? what was that old saw about flight safety, .... you are more likely to get kicked to death by a donkey in Chile than die in a plane crash.
    Sure its facile and a bit silly, but a get a grip everyone
    Last edited by jonboy; 07-23-2021 at 02:20 PM.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    isla, i don't think martin is bemoaning his own inability to discern.

    he is noting that a substantial part of the population can't discern a credible source from a non-credible one. and once one loses that discernment, a fall into the chasm of solipsism is inevitable. the only things anyone can really know are experienced by the self. and even one's own experience is suspect.

    about half the population in the west has been reduced to this. it's a society-wide psychological collapse, caused by incessant tampering.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    The whole business of what we really know to be 100% true is a deep dark hole, so we have learned ways around it. We are good it inference and analyzing evidence to reach conclusions with near certainty. I think I know 99.9% for sure that It would hurt a lot, and cause serious physical damage, if I stuck a screwdriver into my eye. I have never ever stuck a screwdriver into my eye, nor have I witnessed somebody else doing it, so how can I be so sure?
    Structures uninformed by geometry tend towards the ramshackle.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    Why you are all assuming everyone who gets covid ends up in hospital and nearly dies.? Look at the deaths per capita percentage of confirmed infections, Look at the rate of infected who recover without any intervention. that statistic quoted in another post, ' 97% of hospitalised infected haven't been vaccinated. ' shock horror 98% of deaths from covid in western societies are in the 80 - 90 year old group.

    and read it there, not my opinion, 'the vaccine dramatically reduces the the risk of serious illness that leads to hospitalisation or death.' 96 % effective against hospitalisation from the Delta variant.. how many people are hospitalised due to Covid anyway. current figures for Portugal population 11 million 185 in hospital 65 in intensive care. ****, bad news for sure,
    Fine but I still in 18 months know noone personally who has had C19 plenty of hearsay and sure plenty of friends of friends. and the only deaths are even more extrapolated.

    This is undoubtedly a pandemic of colossal proportions, from the point of infections and ' long covid' but as a percentage of the population, ..? what was that old saw about flight safety, .... you are more likely to get kicked to death by a donkey in Chile than die in a plane crash.
    Sure its facile and a bit silly, but a get a grip everyone
    Nobody here has said that. What we've said is that of those who are admitted, 97% are unvaccinated. There's a difference.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    I thought that's what I said, and my quotation marks suggested someone in fact did say that. you just did. ' what we've said is...'

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Indeed. I'm looking for the tools to perform an intervention.
    Yesterday I learned that a client I worked for a few years ago, building a website for his business, contracted Covid last October - pre-vaccination - he spent 71 (unvisited) days in hospital and died.

    Had he caught it, had he been vaccinated, today, he'd likely have survived after a few days of feeling a bit grotty. Or not aware of it at all.

    Where's the doubt about what to do?

    Andy, not getting the thinking.
    "In case of fire ring Fellside 75..."

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    more than 85% of people in britain are fully vaccinated. less than 30 % in various other european countries , through scepticism, hesitancy , idiotic brainwashing, Britain still has a comparable infection rate to some of those countries. let me know what bit of my post was 'irresponsible'.
    We may be getting infected with Delta, but we are a lot less ill, the death rate is well low thanks to the high rate of vaccination.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  26. #61
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Another possibility is that observation, rather than belief, is the overwhelmingly dominant factor.
    the only observation everyone can agree at this point on is to strictly avoid, trace and control those who may carry the virus. Everything else is considered a prophylactic and more likely a remediation to a virus that has no current cure.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 07-23-2021 at 03:58 PM.
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  27. #62
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    I trust this woman has never eaten a hotdog or a chicken nugget or (Gods forbid!) a Twinkie. Now THERE'S your ticking time bombs.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    Why you are all assuming everyone who gets covid ends up in hospital and nearly dies.? Look at the deaths per capita percentage of confirmed infections, Look at the rate of infected who recover without any intervention. that statistic quoted in another post, ' 97% of hospitalised infected haven't been vaccinated. ' shock horror 98% of deaths from covid in western societies are in the 80 - 90 year old group.

    and read it there, not my opinion, 'the vaccine dramatically reduces the the risk of serious illness that leads to hospitalisation or death.' 96 % effective against hospitalisation from the Delta variant.. how many people are hospitalised due to Covid anyway. current figures for Portugal population 11 million 185 in hospital 65 in intensive care. ****, bad news for sure,
    Fine but I still in 18 months know noone personally who has had C19 plenty of hearsay and sure plenty of friends of friends. and the only deaths are even more extrapolated.

    This is undoubtedly a pandemic of colossal proportions, from the point of infections and ' long covid' but as a percentage of the population, ..? what was that old saw about flight safety, .... you are more likely to get kicked to death by a donkey in Chile than die in a plane crash.
    Sure its facile and a bit silly, but a get a grip everyone
    I’m curious. Have you done any comparison of rates for polio vs covid. Did you know that the number of people that were actually infected with paralytic polio was extremely small, similar to that of covid. Paralytic polio was only occurring in around 1% of cases yet it was enough to act on it.

    We are just beginning to see what the long term effects of covid are. I have a former manager that will never work again. He “survived” covid. It didn’t kill him. He has been on a ventilator since December, his time in the rehab facility after two lung surgeries is almost up and they are hoping to bring him home on a ventilator. They had hoped that he would be off it by now but not so far and he cannot stay in the facility much longer. He has cardiac, wound, respiratory, and other “teams” that tend to him daily. Any idea what that cost is? This was a mid fifties guyin excellent health, no underlying conditions and a health/fitness nut. He was a workout monster and now a milestone is lifting a 1 lb ball. He still cannot speak.

    The side effects from the vaccine are vanishingly small, while the benefits are potentially enormous. We are going to find ourself with quite the health burden from long-covid very soon IMHO.
    Tom

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    the only observation everyone can agree at this point on is to strictly avoid, trace and control those who may carry the virus. Everything else is considered a prophylactic and more likely a remediation to a virus that has no current cure.
    Polio was much the same, with asymptomatic carriers spreading it. Vaccines are the way out, bottom line.
    Tom

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Thanks for your replies.

    The mainstream media here in Germany is full of upstanding medical institutions casting doubt into peoples minds. By MSM I mean standard TV interviews on the evening news. It really is a very big thing here, a large proportion of the population is very sceptical and doesn't want it.

    Her fears are about the long term effects being unknown in the real world, it being a new type of vaccine. I can't believe her GP told her that if he had the choice he would not give it to his patients. Like I said she has not slept in 3 weeks from fear about it.

    I don't know where to start to get solid trustworthy information, the internet being what it is. Occams razor just won't cut it.

    Excuse me Martin, what sort of „mainstream media” are you referring to? And to what extend.
    Being a German citizen and speaking and understanding perfectly the language, I have to say that this not the case. Unless you are talking about Focus, RTL, BILD and the rest of the $$it talkers. You should also understand the German obsession with free opinion. A traumatic past, you know……

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Indeed. I'm looking for the tools to perform an intervention.
    I've been trying for months to get my friend Joel to get vaccinated. He's in his late 60s, diabetic, and African-American, so he's all risk factors, but he'd rather believe something he sees on Youtube than the real experts.

    I'll be watching this thread for pointers.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    the only observation everyone can agree at this point on is to strictly avoid, trace and control those who may carry the virus. Everything else is considered a prophylactic and more likely a remediation to a virus that has no current cure.
    I’m ok with the remediation a vaccine provides

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I’m ok with the remediation a vaccine provides
    given the choices of not getting one and staying in seclusion or getting one and enjoying the greater liberty and relief I chose the later. I think that is the only way forward for us and Martin’s friend who lives in urbanized Europe.
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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    Whatever you motivation, I'm glad you took the medicine.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: Reasons to be fearful of vaccinations?

    We have friends who for their reasons have reservations about inoculation, and it's hard not to come to the conclusion that they have been attracted by bait and spoor. This made me scratch my head but then again, one of my daughters had an almost passive aggressive response to questions of her vac status. I've had adventures with modern medicine (and know there are limits) and have concluded you'd always rather not need to take the treatment but when you need it, you need it. I don't recommend elective cancer treatments or obsessive plastic surgery but dental implants are excellent and so is inoculation against diseases like, well all of them really.

    I was glad my holdout daughter finally took action. I think it was the full court press in the news and raised concerns of a future lockdown or maybe just being nagged. Possibly she was just a bit lazy about it. Whatever, I'm relieved she got off the wait list but it was surprising to me that she didn't jump on the opportunity immediately. And a bit worrisome.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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