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Thread: Varoufakis on Assange.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Do you not want to know whether your elected reps are sending your young to die in the Middle East on the basis of a lie?
    what are you on about.

    before the iraq invasion, i knew of hans blix, considered him to be more credible than our leadership, and believed what he said. wikileaks had nothing to do with that. it was all public information.

    and i didn't need the wikileak of the chopper video to tell me that war is hell and innocents and bystanders frequently die. i already knew that. i was among the 20% of americans who were against the invasions from the start. that video looks exactly like the war i imagined.

    even the snowden leaks about extra legal surveillance. i already knew it. it has long been obvious to thinking people that we need a legal structure to constrain the coming surveillance society. even now, long after the "big reveal", our ignorati continue to publish violent memes on their facebook accounts, proclaiming their right to "freeeedom!" and menacing the government that would dare to offer them a vaccination appointment. what did the leaks accomplish, really?

    what wikileaks really did was pull the pants down on our intelligence and diplomatic services, undoing whole careers worth of work, to the applause of oligarchs, authoritarians, and their many apologists.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    He's sitting in Belmarsh Prison! Whether we like him or not is irrelevant, you either charge him with some crime or you let him go.
    He’s a Strine, of course. That must explain this outburst of antipodean idiocy.

    The man is in jail because he is awaiting the outcome of an appeal against the judgment that found that the United States could not extradite him.

    Because - guess what - he is the very definition of a flight risk.

    I suppose reading Wikipedia is beyond you?
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Add one more Australian opinion. My position is It's an international crime to incarcerate the man. I'm not expecting others to agree. There are laws and rules of engagement and the USA are on record to ignore such niceties in the most devious of strategies when it suits their more often than not undisclosed objectives carried out by operatives, often on behalf of commercial US interests. These endeavors are often international crimes with consequences of a hideously destructive proportion on the lives of citizens in those nations the US meddles in. When have US operatives been charged with the crimes committed? When has the US been held to account? Time and time again have they acted in on the international stage in a clandestine criminal nature and primarily, it could be argued, not in the interests of legitimate self defence! They have a record of specialising in getting dissidents from within a nation to do their dirty work in a manner that flies in the face of the most basic of democratic principals. Yet when one organisation Wikileaks employs new technology to fulfil the democratic role of a check and balance the US shouts lock him up and throw away the key? There are glaring inconsistencies with the whole situation. A key question is to what extent does the Espionage Act of the US apply to Wickileaks and Assange in particular in the release of the US documents made available by Chelsea Manning. ( if / when they weren't the first to publish those leaks. )
    And Noam Chomsky had a few things to say about the anti Russian propaganda swirling around in the lead-up to the 2016 election as well as calling out the danger to US democracy Trump was after he was elected and showed his functioning as POTUS. Wikileaks, to my limited knowledge where at the time primarily focused of western coverage. There are many other people associated with wickileaks along with Assange. Then there is the controversy over who first published the US secrets that are the catalyst for his incarceration:


    Assange not first to publish US secrets | The Canberra Times | Canberra, ACT

    [Computer scientist Professor Christian Grothoff said the organisation was not the first to make public 251,000 diplomatic cables when they appeared on its website on September 2, 2011.
    Assange, 49, is fighting extradition to the US, where he is facing an 18-count indictment alleging a plot to hack computers and conspiracy to obtain and disclose national defence information.
    Prosecutors claim the Australian put the lives of sources and informants around the world at risk by publishing their names. Prof Grothoff, of the Bern University of Applied Sciences in Switzerland, told the Old Bailey the unredacted cables came into the public domain following the publication of a passcode in a book by Guardian journalists in February 2011. At the end of August, it was discovered the code could be used to decrypt a mirrored version of the WikiLeaks online encrypted store of cables before the full cache - including classified documents - was made available through torrents and the Cryptome website on September 1, he said.
    "It was actually available on the internet in a way that would be virtually impossible to stop," Prof Grothoff told the court, giving evidence by video link.]

    I am of the opinion that it is a legitimate pursuit in a democracy to shine a light on the dogs of war.


    Last edited by Hallam; 07-22-2021 at 08:00 PM.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    I suppose you think the Swedish extradition request for the crime of rape was actually all part of a Great Conspiracy to get the little swine to the USA?

    One more time - we have an extradition treaty with the USA. Many of us don’t like it because it is one sided in favour of the USA but it’s the law here.

    The little swine is in jail because as I said earlier he is the very definition of a flight risk. If he had behaved better before he would be on bail.
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 07-22-2021 at 07:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    What could possibly go wrong if you decide to publish classified documents?

    Honestly, I have always been a skeptic of Assange. Publishing a few things that should never have been kept secret, as Daniel Ellsberg and the New York Times did, is quite different from what Assange was doing. He eventually started acting as a front for Russians trying to influence the American election, but he was never selective enough to make sure he wasn't putting people in danger, and he never put himself in danger by publishing anything that would irritate the Russians or the Chinese. What he was accused of doing in Sweden qualifies as rape in the U.S., not just in Sweden. On the whole, I do not find him a heroic or sympathetic figure.

    By the way, Hallam, my father was a career Air Force officer who served in three wars. He believed in service to his country. Would you regard him as a dog of war?

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    What johnw and L.W.Baxter say, goes for me.
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote: “By the way, Hallam, my father was a career Air Force officer who served in three wars. He believed in service to his country. Would you regard him as a dog of war?”
    No I most definitely would not. What I’m referring to in my use of the term ‘dogs of war’ is an entirely different dynamic than that of the wars you are referring to re your father. If you haven’t the capacity to see this distinction in what I wrote it’s little wonder you misrepresent my view in the manner you so obviously have. This does no service in understanding, without necessarily agreeing with another expressed viewpoint.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    What johnw and L.W.Baxter say, goes for me.
    That’s fine by me. We each know where the other stands on the matter. Your use of the emotive description of Assange as a little swine makes your position quite clear as I would hope my attitude to the actions of the USA in meddling in the political affairs of other sovereign nations is.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    Quote: “By the way, Hallam, my father was a career Air Force officer who served in three wars. He believed in service to his country. Would you regard him as a dog of war?”
    No I most definitely would not. What I’m referring to in my use of the term ‘dogs of war’ is an entirely different dynamic than that of the wars you are referring to re your father. If you haven’t the capacity to see this distinction in what I wrote it’s little wonder you misrepresent my view in the manner you so obviously have. This does no service in understanding, without necessarily agreeing with another expressed viewpoint.
    My father was awarded the Air Force Cross for his skill and gallantry in the Viet Nam conflict. If you haven't the capacity to see that good men serve in bad wars, or are incapable of making that distinction clear, perhaps you should stop winging about your views being misrepresented. I interpreted your words as you wrote them. Sneering at me for taking your words at their plain, black-letter meaning hardly puts you in a better light than your original statement.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    John you interpreted my words as you understood them, not as I intended them to be understood. So I will take a step back and attempt to clarify.
    The term Dogs of war does not refer to individual soldiers as dogs. The term as I intended it to be understood, as used by Shakespere, to refer to the pillage and chaos, confusion, disorder, devastation, turmoil, turbulence, and lawlessness that accompanies war. In my mind by what i wrote earlier I have implied a difference between the soldier who under orders does his or her job within the rules of engagement and the under handed clandestine CIA type orchestration of a coup or in another relevant example the forces behind driving the USA toward and into military attack on Iraq as to the soldier acting within the rules of engagement. The line gets blurred when for example a helicopter crew, seemingly uncaring in their due diligence to distinguish enemy from journalists as in the video footage released by Wikileaks. So, John I'm not calling your old man one of the dogs of war. I was a few months away from being conscripted to go to Vietnam. When soldiers returned I can tell you while I was opposed to the war in Vietnam i never attacked verbally or otherwise the individual military personnel. The responsibility of calling soldiers into action was elsewhere and that elsewhere should in a democratic system be held accountable and deserving of condemnation.
    Last edited by Hallam; 07-23-2021 at 01:23 AM.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    He’s a Strine, of course. That must explain this outburst of antipodean idiocy.

    The man is in jail because he is awaiting the outcome of an appeal against the judgment that found that the United States could not extradite him.

    Because - guess what - he is the very definition of a flight risk.

    I suppose reading Wikipedia is beyond you?
    How many years does take answer the question then?
    be modest, and be proud of it.

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    He’s a Strine, of course. That must explain this outburst of antipodean idiocy.

    That was out of line Andrew. Keep it civil you pommy prick (wink grin smiley face) JayInOz

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayInOz View Post
    That was out of line Andrew. Keep it civil you pommy prick (wink grin smiley face) JayInOz
    Agreed, I thought it was rude. I'm asking civil questions about the rule of law. If he is being denied due legal process then it can only be assumed he is a political prisoner.
    As far as I can tell he has broken no law other than jumping bail. The Swedish charge of rape doesn't seem to have sufficient grounds for a conviction. He is not a US citizen so he can't be charged with treason or espionage. The Poms don't seem to know what to do and the Australian government is too sh!t scared to upset the Yanks.
    As I said before, you don't have to like him but justice delayed is justice denied.
    be modest, and be proud of it.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Go and read wikipedia and stop being silly.

    He is the subject of a valid extradition request under a valid extradition treaty. He is not allowed bail because he is a proven flight risk. He is not “being denied due process” but he denied due process to his Swedish accusers by absconding until the evidence was stale under Swedish law.

    The only reason I can see for normally sensible people like you two to resort to conspiracy theory is that like Rolf Harris and Lex Greensill he is Australian. So was the late Clive James so clearly you are not all bad. Just stick up for the good ones, please.
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    I met Rolf Harris after a show once- even shook his hand. If I'd known he was a bloody rock spider I wouldn't have been there. Gary (WX) had a valid query about due process. I'd like to know the answers too. As for the mans character, I'd personally like to see Assange drowned in a pub toilet. JayInOz

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    How many more times? The creep is behind bars because he is the subject of an extradition request and he is a proven absconder. There is due process.

    If Assange thinks he ought not to be in jail the process available to him is a writ of habeas corpus. He hasn’t tried this because he is a proven absconder.
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    The "valid extradition treaty" thing is interesting, as the treaty was ratified by only one of the signatories....

    Lynch mob anyone?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57933718.amp
    Last edited by P.I. Stazzer-Newt; 07-23-2021 at 05:28 AM.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Good example. Dr Lynch is not in jail because he is not a flight risk.
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    He could have stepped out of the embassy at any time in that seven years. I hope he is extradited to the USA.
    I wouldn't wish that on anybody. US "justice" seem to be a special blend of petty vindictiveness a lot of the time, especially when it involves foreign citizens the government has developed a dislike to. Guilty until proven innocent, not that they actually even have jurisdiction. The US government IMO, attemts to project and apply domestic legislation well beyond its natural habitat, far too often.

    Pete

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    My experience differs. My experience is professional and not personal but I certainly never found a problem because I and the companies I worked for were foreign.

    As I wrote earlier, US justice like the US medical system is very good indeed for the rich and famous and less so for the poor and obscure. Julian Assange is rich and famous, so he will get justice.
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    How many more times? The creep is behind bars because he is the subject of an extradition request and he is a proven absconder. There is due process.

    If Assange thinks he ought not to be in jail the process available to him is a writ of habeas corpus. He hasn’t tried this because he is a proven absconder.
    There is no shortage of commentary that goes well beyond what seems to be a simplistic "due process" argument.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ge-act/590200/

    The charges set a precedent “that can be used to target all news organizations that hold the government accountable by publishing its secrets,” the ACLU warns, adding, “If the US can prosecute a foreign publisher for violating our secrecy laws, there’s nothing preventing China, or Russia, from doing the same.” The civil-liberties organization says the Assange case marks the first time in American history that criminal charges are being brought “against a publisher for the publication of truthful information” under the Espionage Act of 1917.



    ....and;

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/charging-julian-assange-under-the-espionage-act-is-an-attack-on-the-first-amendment
    The indictment of the WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, like many attacks on democracy, is novel but rooted in a long devolution of American institutions—it is a leap, but from a running start


    Lay on MacDuff.....
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    There is no shortage of commentary that goes well beyond what seems to be a simplistic "due process" argument.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ge-act/590200/

    The charges set a precedent “that can be used to target all news organizations that hold the government accountable by publishing its secrets,” the ACLU warns, adding, “If the US can prosecute a foreign publisher for violating our secrecy laws, there’s nothing preventing China, or Russia, from doing the same.” The civil-liberties organization says the Assange case marks the first time in American history that criminal charges are being brought “against a publisher for the publication of truthful information” under the Espionage Act of 1917.



    ....and;

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/charging-julian-assange-under-the-espionage-act-is-an-attack-on-the-first-amendment
    The indictment of the WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, like many attacks on democracy, is novel but rooted in a long devolution of American institutions—it is a leap, but from a running start


    Lay on MacDuff.....
    With great respect, the points that you raise - and I subscribe to both the Atlantic and the New Yorker, are questions of American law.

    They are issues that Mr Assange can raise at his trial, should it ever take place, in the United States.

    They have nothing to do with his detention in the UK, which is as I have described it; he is detained not for jumping bail - he has served that sentence - but because he is subject to an extradition request and he is a proven absconded.
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    you are forgetting that some of charges against him carry the death penalty. But then in the opinion of some of our co-respondents , he's a little australian swine . what a lot of racist colonialist backward nationalistic pathetic nonsense.
    ACB I'll forgive you the 'little' as you are obviously taller than 1.88. 6ft 3
    Last edited by jonboy; 07-23-2021 at 08:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    you are forgetting that some of charges against him carry the death penalty. But then in the opinion of some of our co-respondents , he's a little australian swine . what a lot of racist colonialist backward nationalistic pathetic nonsense.
    Cloud cuckoo land.

    Britain will not extradite anyone anywhere to face charges that carry a possible death penalty.

    It is not my opinion that Julian Assange is Australian; it is a fact that he is Australian, just like Rolf Harris and Lex Greensill.

    It is my opinion that he is a little swine, just like Rolf Harris and Lex Greensill and a few other dishonest Australian bankers whom I could name, one of whom committed suicide a few years back after leaving a swath of destruction through the capital markets, but de mortuis nil nisi bonum. Australian merchant bankers ought to come with a warning label.

    I think you stand an excellent chance of getting the rat back.
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    you are forgetting that some of charges against him carry the death penalty. But then in the opinion of some of our co-respondents , he's a little australian swine . what a lot of racist colonialist backward nationalistic pathetic nonsense.
    ACB I'll forgive you the 'little' as you are obviously taller than 1.88. 6ft 3
    What charges against him carry the death penalty?

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    It's a while ago, but there were charges relating to treason.... can't honestly be bothered to look it up know, but when a man seeks asylum in a sanctuary, for seven years, because if he goes back to face un related to wikileaks charges in Sweden that does have an extradition agreement with the US and its the US that wants to charge him with capital punishment valid offenses.... I think I'd hole up anywhere rather than face a 'fair trial' hahahaha
    American justice. A beacon for the rest of the civilised world.
    Lets not forget if it wasn't for a teenage girl and a camera, Chauvin would still be out there suffocating uppity niggas. If it had been left to the due processes of law and order in the land of the free....

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    It's a while ago, but there were charges relating to treason.... can't honestly be bothered to look it up know, but when a man seeks asylum in a sanctuary, for seven years, because if he goes back to face un related to wikileaks charges in Sweden that does have an extradition agreement with the US and its the US that wants to charge him with capital punishment valid offenses.... I think I'd hole up anywhere rather than face a 'fair trial' hahahaha
    American justice. A beacon for the rest of the civilised world.
    Lets not forget if it wasn't for a teenage girl and a camera, Chauvin would still be out there suffocating uppity niggas. If it had been left to the due processes of law and order in the land of the free....
    Assange has not been charged with treason in the US. In the US treason is the only crime defined in the constitution, as so
    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
    Assange has a list of espionage charges, none of which carry the death penalty.


    assange’s fans make clear they don’t value him for a noble stand of freedom, but for poking the us

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    OK just google Julian Assanges ..'.have any of the charges against him carried the death penalty'

    There's a raft of articles, journalism, lawyers statements, .....Possibly all bull of course, but hey, are you getting your intelligence from another source? What makes your opinion any more relevant than mine or countless erudite commentators. Still I'm not saying I'm right, just what I hear, dontcha know?

    As Marvin said believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see, and it applies to all of us.

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Just one, not saying it's true, but its rom where we all get the news.

    It is submitted that there is a real risk that, if extradited to Sweden, the U.S. will seek his extradition and/or illegal rendition to the USA, where there will be a real risk of him being detained at Guantanamo Bay or elsewhere, in conditions which would breach Article 3 of the ECHR. Indeed, if Mr. Assange were rendered to the USA, without assurances that the death penalty would not be carried out, there is a real risk that he could be made subject to the death penalty. It is well-known that prominent figures have implied, if not stated outright, that Mr. Assange should be executed.

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    OK just google Julian Assanges ..'.have any of the charges against him carried the death penalty'

    There's a raft of articles, journalism, lawyers statements, .....Possibly all bull of course, but hey, are you getting your intelligence from another source? What makes your opinion any more relevant than mine or countless erudite commentators. Still I'm not saying I'm right, just what I hear, dontcha know?

    As Marvin said believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see, and it applies to all of us.
    im getting my intelligence from the public charging documents, I.e what crimes the US has actually charged him with. If you don’t believe the US, you can look at what the UK courts believe the US charged him with.

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    I am shocked, not in the “Casablanca” sense of that term, by the number of people who have posted in this thread and who seem to get their knowledge of the world from conspiracy theorists in social media.

    I used to think that this place was mostly populated by sensible people. I was wrong.
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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    What crimes the US has actually charged him with versus what they would like to charge him with. They know he won't be extradited to a third world country with the death penalty, like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan the USA, so they plead lesser charges. then he gets there.
    And as he is not there , nor a US citizen, can they actually charge him with anything at all?, maybe , but its pissing in the wind until they have him on US or cuban soil.
    Now let me think , what was that about extraordinary rendition some years ago, ? something to do with the world's policemen. and extra judiciary executions. ? Oh no I must have read that somewhere

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post

    I used to think that this place was mostly populated by sensible people. I was wrong.
    Yes, we are all marching out of step with you Andrew.

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    John you interpreted my words as you understood them, not as I intended them to be understood. So I will take a step back and attempt to clarify.
    The term Dogs of war does not refer to individual soldiers as dogs. The term as I intended it to be understood, as used by Shakespere, to refer to the pillage and chaos, confusion, disorder, devastation, turmoil, turbulence, and lawlessness that accompanies war. In my mind by what i wrote earlier I have implied a difference between the soldier who under orders does his or her job within the rules of engagement and the under handed clandestine CIA type orchestration of a coup or in another relevant example the forces behind driving the USA toward and into military attack on Iraq as to the soldier acting within the rules of engagement. The line gets blurred when for example a helicopter crew, seemingly uncaring in their due diligence to distinguish enemy from journalists as in the video footage released by Wikileaks. So, John I'm not calling your old man one of the dogs of war. I was a few months away from being conscripted to go to Vietnam. When soldiers returned I can tell you while I was opposed to the war in Vietnam i never attacked verbally or otherwise the individual military personnel. The responsibility of calling soldiers into action was elsewhere and that elsewhere should in a democratic system be held accountable and deserving of condemnation.
    Thank you for your thoughtful response. The term 'dogs of war' most certainly was applied to those returning from service in Vietnam, and having witnessed what my father went through, I'm sensitive to that. Had you simply answered my question sincerely in the first place, rather than accuse me of misrepresenting what you said, we would have had no ill-will between us. It was certainly not my intention to misrepresent your views.

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    Default Re: Varoufakis on Assange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I am shocked, not in the “Casablanca” sense of that term, by the number of people who have posted in this thread and who seem to get their knowledge of the world from conspiracy theorists in social media.

    I used to think that this place was mostly populated by sensible people. I was wrong.

    Where did you gain your knowledge that Assange is not a journalist?

    According to the source that you pointed others to for information, "Wikipedia", clearly states Assange is a journalist.

    Never seen such rude, insulting words about others thrown around as if meaningless innocent comments. People with weak arguments facing facts, are usually the first to throw insults.

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