Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

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  • WI-Tom
    Seaside Expat
    • Jan 2009
    • 15901

    #16
    Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

    OK, so you also mentioned obstacles and unexpected situations. Here again, I think the lugsail (balance lug or standing lug) really shines, because it can be dropped so quickly. Here's a quick clip of sailing in fairly tight close quarters with a boomless standing lug:



    Just as the video ended, I stepped forward and dropped the sail to avoid running into some rocks--then continued under oars, no problem.

    I guess, after trying out a few options, I can't see how any other rig can beat a lugsail (especially a boomless standing lug) for this kind of easy handling. Just my opinion, but a somewhat informed opinion, at least...

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

    Comment

    • LarixMaximus
      Banned
      • Jul 2021
      • 418

      #17
      Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

      Originally posted by MikeVictorBravo
      I've found it. Skaraborgcraft. There's a forum thread, here http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-beach-Havpram

      I've looked on the Selway-Fisher website, but it doesn't seem to be there. Maybe it was never finished.

      Quite a thread! Some confusion though, he is not Norwegian and the original pram design was from Denmark. It seems Mr Fisher has named the design himself Nor 20, a development of lines and not full building plans. Not sure how much of a boat like this your money would buy.

      Skaraborg is a county between the lakes in Vastra Gotaland.

      That boat on a trailer for 750 is bargain boating.

      Comment

      • MikeVictorBravo
        Junior Member
        • Jul 2021
        • 7

        #18
        Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

        Hi Tom, thanks for your advice! I guess I was thinking too much about Chasse Marées and Thames Barges, watching them ghost along with brailed up sails and thinking how simple and easy that looked... at least from the shore!

        I am quite happy with the idea of a boomless sail, for many reasons, not least avoiding getting knocked on the head! I have few enough brain cells to spare without feeding the fish with them. I'm also not fussed about racing. I'd also feel a lot more comfortable taking non-sailing passengers on board without a boom over them, and they might well feel better about it, too.

        So, basically, sold! I accept the welcome and informative correction.

        On a tangential note, what boat is that you're sailing? Looks like a pretty good candidate

        Comment

        • MikeVictorBravo
          Junior Member
          • Jul 2021
          • 7

          #19
          Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

          Originally posted by Edward Pearson
          You got £700?

          Here's an Oughtred Ness Yawl on a trailer in Scotland. Asking just £750. Provided the garboard is still solid, after a rub down and simple paint with some Toplac, you'd have the bones of a great boat. Money left for a new set of sails and spars for your rig preference. They don't come cheaper than this...





          With elbow grease you can make it look like this inside your budget as you get the money.
          Edward, you're killing me! I literally can't until at least October. That looks the business, trailer too. You clearly have a knack for finding the deals!

          My only slight reservation over Iain Oughtred's designs is that I would prefer at least a narrow transom to increase storage and buoyancy, and retain the option for a trolling outboard without having to tack on a big clumsy support frame.

          But other than that... these boats you're finding are cherry. Please stop! I can't do anything about it, for now.

          Comment

          • MikeVictorBravo
            Junior Member
            • Jul 2021
            • 7

            #20
            Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

            Originally posted by WBViking
            Have you considered a Mirror dinghy, or is that too small for you (11 ft)?
            People have done a lot of cruising around in these boats - easily rowed and readily acquired in the UK for little $$ - I bought a 1970 Mirror (wood) with trailer 2 years ago for $25 USD, in sailing condition!
            Folks rig up boom tents and platforms to sleep on as well, and there are lots of cruising vids on youtube with Mirrors - active racing class in the UK as well.
            Not to dash your "build your own" dreams, but I think you would be hard pressed to build a GIS, a First Mate, or Scamp or anywhere near 2000 gbp....plywood / lumber prices in general have skyrocketed over the past year, and to build - get sails and a trailer for any of the above boats would set you back likely in the 3000-4000 gbp range at a min.......
            Here is my little $25 Mirror
            It definitely remains on the table as a budget option, especially for 25 quid, if you know a guy who's selling at that price again!

            I wasn't really after a jib, though. Is the extra string much of a handful on a small boat? Also, once all the gear is in for a camping cruise (or even a long day sail with lunch and some observations) I'm wondering how much space I'll have for me. Need to stretch out the knees, now and then!

            Comment

            • WI-Tom
              Seaside Expat
              • Jan 2009
              • 15901

              #21
              Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

              Originally posted by MikeVictorBravo
              On a tangential note, what boat is that you're sailing? Looks like a pretty good candidate
              That's Don Kurylko's Alaska design, which he drew for long-range engineless cruising on the Inside Passage. I love it--but it's significantly heavier than the First Mate or Phoenix III (18' long vs. 15'), with about the same amount of usable interior space. I don't even try to roll this up a beach, although I suppose it could be done. A little more oriented toward rowing, but sails well enough for me, especially off the wind, with a 17'+ waterline and a 4' 8" beam.

              You can read my comparisons between the Phoenix III and the Alaska ON THIS THREAD, in post #20 and #31.

              As far as boomless rigs and lugsails, be aware there are other informed sailors who would disagree with me on all that. It does all come down to your priorities. I think of a boomless standing lugsail as the perfect rig for those who want a boat that disallows type A behavior--I'm no racer, that's for sure!

              But that Ness Yawl at 750 GBP? That might be verging on stupid to pass up...

              Tom
              Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

              www.tompamperin.com

              Comment

              • WBViking
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2014
                • 276

                #22
                Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

                Originally posted by MikeVictorBravo
                It definitely remains on the table as a budget option, especially for 25 quid, if you know a guy who's selling at that price again!

                I wasn't really after a jib, though. Is the extra string much of a handful on a small boat? Also, once all the gear is in for a camping cruise (or even a long day sail with lunch and some observations) I'm wondering how much space I'll have for me. Need to stretch out the knees, now and then!
                I have seen Mirrors on Facebook "people who love Mirror dinghy's" page (in the UK) being given away, that need some minor sanding / painting / varnishing etc....pretty common to see them going for nothing....
                As far as cruising with a Mirror, a lot of people do and have done so - obviously there is less space aboard an 11 ft ply dinghy than something like that lovely Ness yawl pictured above - man, that is a real steal! But for a night or 2 - a boat this size can hold your gear.....a couple of dry bags on either side of the daggerboard trunk, and you are good to go - look up "mirror dinghy cruising" vids on youtube - lots of them
                Part of the appeal also of the Mirror, is it has 2 mast steps, so you can sail with main only if you like - handling the small jib sheet is not a big deal though....also comes with oar locks and is easily rowed....

                A single handed voyage in a Mirror Dinghy from Emsworth to Poole Harbour, 50 miles, on the South coast of England

                Comment

                • LarixMaximus
                  Banned
                  • Jul 2021
                  • 418

                  #23
                  Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

                  With your build site, storage and side alley issue, have you considered a 3 part boat?





                  If you need to man handle the boat down an alley, maybe a boat that can be car topped or moved with a small box trailer or in a van might be worth a thought?

                  I have seen the plans for Scamp, what makes the boat work well is all the little details, it is a more involved build than something like Nesting Expedition Dinghy by some margin and cost.

                  The abundance of dinghy classes in the UK mean building almost anything is going to be way more expensive than something you could pick up second hand. Though building your own boat is always a worthwhile endevour.

                  Comment

                  • The Jeff
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 505

                    #24
                    Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

                    I wasn't really after a jib, though. Is the extra string much of a handful on a small boat? Also, once all the gear is in for a camping cruise (or even a long day sail with lunch and some observations) I'm wondering how much space I'll have for me. Need to stretch out the knees, now and then!

                    I've found a jib really handy so I can heave to. If the wind is too much, or I want to reef, or eat lunch, or just take a break, heaving to really works. Backing it to help the bow through a tack can be useful as well. Sometimes it can get flapping and make a terrible racket until you sheet it in, but the pros outweigh the cons for me. It can be awkward storing it when the tack is still attached up at the bow, but I'm considering making a small roller furler that should help that issue.

                    On the First Mate you'll mostly be confined to between the main thwart and sternsheets. Sitting too far aft hurts your performance, so I recommend removable side benches and sitting up near the main thwart. It's pretty comfortable to sit on a cushion on the sole and lean back against the side decks too, although your butt will get wet if there's much water swishing around. In calm conditions I stand up and steady myself on the boom if it's nearby.
                    http://sailingmoga.com/

                    Comment

                    • 62816inBerlin
                      Landlocked in Berlin
                      • Feb 2008
                      • 805

                      #25
                      Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

                      [QUOTE=WBViking;6482745]Have you considered a Mirror dinghy, or is that too small for you (11 ft)?
                      People have done a lot of cruising around in these boats - easily rowed and readily acquired in the UK for little $$ - I bought a 1970 Mirror (wood) with trailer 2 years ago for $25 USD, in sailing condition!
                      ...... QUOTE]
                      @MikeVictorBravo : I appreciate your reservations and if you want to build your own, you have more scope for customising to suit your wishes. On the other hand, the sort of cruising you consider can be done in a Mirror and these are available in all conditions - as unbuilt kits to near-wrecks and even in frozen snot if you're not choosy. I have done some coastal and inland multi-day messabouts as well as two camp-cruising trips in mine*. There are quiter a number of Mirorrists in the UK Dinghy Cruising Association.
                      As to the Goat Island Skiff, Enrico Franconi has posted some YouTube videos of his cruises in Italy and the French Riviera in his GIS (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeg...iPXRDdJzul7LJw ).
                      @WBViking : I haven't got #24672 on the Roll Call yet. Are you aware of the Mirror Dinghy Discussion Forum? We have a sprinkling of US Mirrorists there.

                      I'm eagerly awaiting the developments of your project and news on what boat was chosen in the end.

                      * My reports on https://mirrordiscussforum.org/documents.html , Cruise and Messabout videos at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9bV...9MEaQ5TTLypIjP

                      Comment

                      • WBViking
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2014
                        • 276

                        #26
                        Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

                        [QUOTE=62816inBerlin;6483002][QUOTE=WBViking;6482745]Have you considered a Mirror dinghy, or is that too small for you (11 ft)?
                        People have done a lot of cruising around in these boats - easily rowed and readily acquired in the UK for little $$ - I bought a 1970 Mirror (wood) with trailer 2 years ago for $25 USD, in sailing condition QUOTE

                        @WBViking : I haven't got #24672 on the Roll Call yet. Are you aware of the Mirror Dinghy Discussion Forum? We have a sprinkling of US Mirrorists there.

                        Yes, I am aware - I sent an email to Gernot (you?) back in 2019 with my info, I assume you did not receive it
                        Can you please add my Mirror 24672 (told it was built in 1970 when I bought it) to the roll call?
                        I live in NE Ohio / Akron area (US)
                        Thanks! (Jerry Welch)

                        Comment

                        • Edward Pearson
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2015
                          • 2204

                          #27
                          Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

                          Originally posted by MikeVictorBravo
                          I love the look of his Ilur. It has proper little ship vibes, from the lug rig right down to the forepeak where he stores ropes and muddy items. It looks incredibly salty! But I couldn't possibly stretch to an Ilur, either financially or physically - it would be too big and heavy to get out.
                          A boat you should look at is the Salmo 15-S.

                          Length, beam, depth is very similar to an Ilur, but it's built 'simpler' stitch and glue. Cheaper build with many of it's virtues: it's a simple, good cruising dinghy. Same unstayed boodles standing lugsail. Plans are cheaper too and while kitable, you can build it from plans to save cost. You'll have to rig thwart level seating, but it's been done. People have cruised these around Europe. Transom if you needed an outboard bracket.

                          Building in FSC Birch ply will halve the ply cost. It's good quality part from lower durability. Provided you look after the boat it'll last, you'd be well advised to keep it's bilge 'dry'/ decent cover/ epoxy the bilges/ seal the edges etc that's all.





                          The boat uses ply pieces for internal fit out. Single mast, single sail.



                          See this thread:



                          They look a pretty 'dry' boat in waves.

                          Comment

                          • Edward Pearson
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2015
                            • 2204

                            #28
                            Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

                            Another sail and oar to look at would be the Nigel Irens/ Ed Burnett Western Skiff.

                            Sadly Ed has past away, but after a donation to a sailing charitable trust you can download plans from Practical Boat Owner's website (and have them printed out) and either build from them (they are full size patterns for all parts) or purchase a kit from Jordan for £1000. If you cut out the panels it'd be less than half that. You'd need a mast, sail and trailer or trolley but you'd manage to do it for 2k.

                            There was a series of articles in PBO on building one a bit back. Being sail and oar, and quite round bilge it'll be more 'tippy' than a wide flat/ fat dinghy but that's what gives you the oar performance and speed in light air so you don't need an outboard.







                            It's simple to build and was designed as such for 'beginners', initially as kit only. Mainly uses a jigsaw. There's some jigging like an Ilur's construction. Should be light in Occume. I had the plans printed out full size but haven't built it yet. A company down in the West Country printed the plans out: you send the files to via email, think it was maybe £35 for that.

                            No finer names in naval architecture than Nigel Irens and Ed Burnett. If you're very new to sailing (or sail in high winds) you might prefer a 'stiffer' boat to start with though.
                            Last edited by Edward Pearson; 07-09-2021, 11:17 AM.

                            Comment

                            • biglad
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 622

                              #29
                              Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

                              I live in Central Scotland and agree with the others on here. If you want to build, build but it'll be far cheaper and you'll be on the water a lot quicker if you buy. I'm on my third build (an 18' motorboat) after a Caledonia Yawl and a Selway Fisher Highlander 11. This motorboat will be used on the West Coast of Scotland when it's finished.

                              Paul Fisher has some nice designs that would be straightforward to build for a first timer. He's UK based. I haven't had any issues with his plans whatsover- easy to follow.

                              A cuddy would be a good idea- somewhere dry to keep your gear is probably a good idea.

                              Might be worth getting some rough prices for materials so you have an idea of what you're getting into. I've used Timbmet for plywood and a local sawmill for the other timber for my current build. Robbins in Bristol is another well known supplier. I've saved a fair amount of the mills workshop time (and therefore money) by having them supply me with sawn timber. I can plane it down myself. You could always use exterior wbp plywood if you weren't overly concerned about a long lifespan of the boat. Lack of supply and huge demand is causing prices of timber in the UK to be pretty high just now.

                              You could probably find a set of secondhand sails for sensible money. A new set, even for a small boat, would cost a fair proportion of your budget.

                              Ben

                              Comment

                              • Andrew2
                                Senior Member
                                • Jul 2013
                                • 2901

                                #30
                                Re: Which dinghy daysailer/cruiser for the Mersey and beyond?

                                [QUOTE=biglad;6485417

                                You could probably find a set of secondhand sails for sensible money. A new set, even for a small boat, would cost a fair proportion of your budget.

                                Ben[/QUOTE]
                                I bought two sails of the net for my current build. One is perfect (&free), but the main (£50) needs a big recut. Not a prob as I made the set for my 15ft from scratch. BUT, nice dutch guy on here has a ready to go set in condition for not much money? So will go with that.

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