Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

[Adrian Valley]

For a number of years now I have been hoping that a new canoe sailing design would come out, that would meet my needs here in Albany Western Australia (boisterous weather). I've looked at the obvious suspects, but have ruled them out for various reasons:

Bufflehead - Excellent design, but probably too narrow. Difficult to build, as the plans are sparse.

Artemis - Probably too 50:50 for what I want (emphasis sailing).

Shearwater (Solway Dory) - Looks great, especially with outriggers, but they don't do plans and it would be prohibitive to ship to Oz.

Beth - Probably too tippy and fast for me.

Viola - I thought this might be the one, with closed in ends and possibly outriggers, but BoatMik advised against this, saying it would change the design too much.

Lake Sailor - Nice shape, but short and the sail plan seems way too small.

Nautilus (John Welsford) - Had great hopes for this one ,but have been waiting since 2011, not sure if it will eventuate?

Expedition Canoe (CLC) - Looks great and I love the idea of the mirage drive, but there have been no reports of how it might sail in stronger winds (essential). Perhaps outriggers (like Solway Dory) would fit between the hatch and the combing? I would have preferred it if it was 40" wide.

Any others?

I looked at wider more dinghy like sailing canoes, with much the same result:

Lillie (Campion boats/Selway Fisher) - Nice but too racing orientated?

Cirque 15 (Campion Boats) - I really liked the look of this one, but it is really a day sailer (nothing wrong with that) and I don't want to be the first person to build one.

Electra - Ditto

Others?

I looked at a range of boats that might fill the same role:

Phoenix 111 - Really nice design and light, should probably build this one, but it's not a sailing canoe.....

Walkabout - Ditto, though a tad heavier.

Harrier - Great looking design, but I would have preferred a more decked option, which would put the weight up.

Arctic Tern - Supped the cool aid and used to really like these, but for some reason the appeal is waning.


Enter the CLC Skerry Raid: http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/d...erry-Raid.html

http://www.arwenmarine.com/Images/P1340674b.jpg

At least 4 of these have been built now and they look terrific. I can't help thinking they look like a wider sailing canoe.

There are some great pictures of them at Fyne Boat kits: http://www.fyneboatkits.co.uk/kits/sailing/skerry-raid/

More sailing and build photos at Arwen Marine (in French): http://www.arwenmarine.com/NewsSKROne.html

14' 11" long x 5' wide, hull weight 140lbs, rigged weight 85 Kg (hey I grew up with imperial, but now use metric).

A bloke is doing the Great Loop in one: http://johnguider.com/journeys/the-great-loop-complete

What's not to like? Thoughts, observations, comments and suggestions welcome and perhaps someone could post some flipping pictures.....sigh.

Cheers,

Adrian

[swoody126]

sounds like a WORTHY QUEST

keep us posted

sw

[keyhavenpotterer]

Excellent post Adrian. Looks like you may have found your right boat.

Just a few thoughts,

With a 40" beam Viola seams to make a much more stable and recoverable platform. Seeing the capsize recovery pictures shows a very different boat to the narrow sailing canoes. Koos, who has an Artemis, wIth mylar Storer rig same as Viola, is working with MIK on a simple lug rig. So a version of Viola with lug rig might work. Outriggers don't seem right for Viola.

The CLC Expedition have quite stable hull shapes, see the bottom profIles. It does look like the design will become available. Commission the design by CLC of a smaller rig at 6 sqm, and the high carry Solway Dory outrIggers from CLC.

Nauilus will appear one day when at the stars align.

So, your Skerry Exp looks very good. Viola strong contender, CLC Exp with 6m rig and outriggers.

Brian

[keyhavenpotterer]

Selway Fisher also have the Arctic Skewer, at 36" waide.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Sailcanoe.htm#ARTIC

[Thorne]

I think you're out of the "canoe" category, unless (like the word "skiff") canoe means something else dawn undah. I would tend to define "canoe" as something significantly narrower in comparison to length, but don't have any hard numbers for this.

The CLC Exp is really a canoe-stern sailboat, or double-ender -- and there are a lot of lovely designs that are similar. But if that's what rings your chimes, go for it!

[Canoez]

I think you're out of the "canoe" category, unless (like the word "skiff") canoe means something else dawn undah. I would tend to define "canoe" as something significantly narrower in comparison to length, but don't have any hard numbers for this.

The CLC Exp is really a canoe-stern sailboat, or double-ender -- and there are a lot of lovely designs that are similar. But if that's what rings your chimes, go for it!

I think this is one of the cases where terminology can be a bit confusing - are we looking at sailing canoes, or canoe yawls which can be neither canoes, nor yawls, but still be canoe yawls?

[keyhavenpotterer]

Walkabout is a very able seaworthy design.

This version with scamP style cuddy even more so.



She is actually built at 18' though, much closer to Long Steps.

However, I chatted with John Welsord about a 16' version, the normal Walkabout length. She would have the cuddy, also possible to include water ballast. A sort of "light" Long Steps. She stores in a dighy space here in the UK here max length is 16'.

Brian

[keyhavenpotterer]

John's new 14' double ended must be close to use to the ÇLC Skerry is showing well in sailing trials.




http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...unches-his-SEI

[Adrian Valley]

Many thanks for the responses and a bit of an update.

I was initially quite excited about modifying Viola, but Mik was less enthusiastic, please see his comments below:


"I think there is too much messing about with the basic concept to move towards what you are interested in doing. This is a very simple stripped down canoe for daysailing that has been kept as light as possible.

Its also intended to be much more stable and more dinghy like in performance than the normal canoe - in a sense it is a narrow sailing dinghy.

I don't think it is the right starting point

Re paddling:

"The Viola is definitely not intended to be a real paddling canoe. That's the downside of the large initial stability and large range of stability. Remember that Joost's wife, who sailed when she was younger but doesn't sail much now was pretty comfortable sailing it solo. And can capsize and recover without any practice. As could the much heavier Joost.

This stability requires a fair bit of extra wetted surface which is predominantly in the back end of the boat - the "dinghy style" shape.

This will mean that while it will paddle OK when the wind is light it will bog down compared to the true double ended canoes that are used for real touring.

Also you can see from the capsize recovery photos that the buoyancy is quite adequate to the task as designed. But a full camping payload would tend to push the side in the water somewhat deeper on capsize. A heavy load would immerse it down to the next set of available buoyancy - the tanks on the other side.

Adding tanks and deck is a quick way of making a boat that is just single person luggable just that bit heavier so it is no longer the easy boat for one person to move around. That's the reason for no decks, minimal tanks and the 4mm construction "beefed up" with very light fibreglass.

We will be making a larger rig similar to the one currently on the boat - Joost's wife finds the current rig very comfortable and lively enough to allow for some serious hiking.

Joost feels he is missing out so wants a larger rig - probably about 65sq f.

We will also be doing a balance lug (I can't help myself) for those who need a shorter mast and to hoist and lower the sail.

Sorry I am not able to be more enthusiastic about the ideas - nothing in the slightest wrong with them - I think they will work much better with a symmetrical paddling type canoe than they will with Viola - you really need the ability to get to places paddling. And the outriggers help overcome most of the weaknesses of the normal paddling type sailing canoe - a nice solution in itself".

Best wishes
Michael.


I may still pursue this with BoatMik, as what I didn't outline were my more outlandish thoughts...... It struck me that a mirage drive might fit directly in front of the daggerboard and that by fully boxing in the ends a lot more buoyancy would be created, that might offset the extra weight? I also have plans for a little trolley to wheel the boat around on......

I also emailed CLC with my wish list for the Expedition Canoe (smaller sail and Solway Dory type outriggers), but have not yet heard anything back yet. In my mind this could mean one of two things, they think the ideas are mad and not worth commenting on, or more positively.... they are keeping their powder dry for a big announcement re this design, so fingers crossed. To be honest having a design I could car top on occasions would be great and this design looks good for this. One qualification with this design though, I absolutely must be able to self rescue it. Outriggers would help here, but so would boxing in the rear compartment at the bulkhead behind the seat (and adding a hatch), as I can't envisage sleeping in the boat. Perhaps I should ramp up the pressure and approach John Harris to commission these additions ($$$), anyone else interested in this?

Arctic Skua looks nice, but I am reluctant to be the first person to build one.

I did look at SEI and it seems a really nice design, but it already weighs 85kg and I would want to add decking etc....

I have always liked Walkabout and really like the idea of a "light" Long Steps, as this size would be far more manageable for me. Are you going to pursue this Brian?

Finally over to the Skerry Raid. Well, I found some footage of one chasing Avel Dro (an Ilur) in a French raid (the Challenge Naviguer Légeron) on You Tube, so I emailed Roger Barnes (the owner the Ilur and small cruising dinghy luminary) re his observations of the Skerry Raid. He thought it likely to be faster than an Ilur and obviously more of a rowing design, BUT, he thought it had water ballast......... I have emailed him back about this, as this would make it even more desirable in my book. Arwen Marine were the builders of this particular boat, but I can't find any reference to this on the build linked above, anyone speak French?

Finally and I know Thorne will berate me for this, but I still don't really understand how to post pictures (I read the FAQ as well). What is the current best hosting site for this, so I can liven up the thread with a few a few choice pictures?

Cheers,

Adrian

[Thorne]

Here's how to post photos on this forum:




FIRST - Don't attach photos. Only a tiny version will display.




SECOND - Post the photos on the web. Use your own website or a free image hosting service like www.flickr.com, picasaweb.google.com, picturetrail, photobucket, shutterfly, etc. Facebook is not recommended the image URL is changed after a few months (breaking the link), and images must be set to "Public" access via the Edit option, not limited to "Friends".




THIRD - Once posted on the web, right-click the photo to "Copy Image Location", or drag the photo to another browser window, then copy the image URL / location / address which will end in ".jpg". You can test by pasting the photo URL into the location field (http://* ) of a web browser and see if the photo displays. Remember that this process will not work for photos located just on your computer, on members-only Yahoo groups, or on Facebook or Flickr unless set to "Public" view.




In Flickr - First click the photo to bring up the options on the right, click the downward arrow icon on the far right ("Download this photo"), then in the list that appears click "View All Sizes". Select the size you want (if not the default size displayed) then get the image URL by right-clicking the image to select "copy image location / address".




FOURTH - DO THIS EVERY TIME TO POST IMAGES IN THREADS:
A. In any "Reply" window you can click the "insert image" icon --> a little yellow square icon with a dot at each corner, a tiny tree in the center.




Depending on browser version and Reply/Edit status, this may bring up a simple window with a field to paste the URL into, or the "Add an Image" window described below.




B. If the window titled "Add an Image" comes up, click the "From URL" tab, paste the URL of the photo in the field, deselect the box for "Retrieve remote file and reference locally", then click the "INSERT IMAGE" button. The Forum software will resize some large images, so look at your post to see the actual displayed images.




NOTE - most common problems are due to missing the step described above -> deselect the box for "Retrieve remote file and reference locally"

[Adrian Valley]

Thank You Thorne, got there in the end.....

Skerry Raid 1 by Adrian Valley, on Flickr

[Adrian Valley]

Skerry raid 2 by Adrian Valley, on Flickr

[Adrian Valley]

SKRLines by Adrian Valley, on Flickr

[keyhavenpotterer]

Well done Adrian. Skerry Raid looks spot on for your requirements. Sail and oar, not paddle.
Even the Solway Dory's are only single paddle when there is no wind, which would be the same with Viola.

Brian

[sailinpapi]

Adrian

Conact Arwen their boss speaks excellent English

On their website: http://www.arwenmarine.com

Follow the links: Nos Bateaux and Voiliers

Richard

[keyhavenpotterer]

Size wise single handed boats - need to be reasonable light around 100kg, not too big - and so the Skerry Raid fits that. I felt my Oughtred Tirrik great for two but a bit big on my own. My usual 12' Scow size to small for cruising camping.

Good to see flush decks which will handle Solent waves coming aboard, the Scows will half fill quickly when beating against the tide.



Brian

[Adrian Valley]

Great picture, good looking boat don't you think..... Arwen Marine list their boat at 85kg rigged, which seems amazingly light to me. Part of the appeal is the likelihood of being able to drag the boat up the beach a bit when landing and being able to move it around on a small trolley. Heck, blokes and blokettes in Oz put heavier tinnies than this on their roof racks, but I'm not going to try and winch it 2.2 m onto the top of my Cruiser (4WD Landcruiser), so a small trailer like the one pictured above, will be good for me.

I have made an enquiry with Arwen Marine about the water ballast (thanks for the nudge Richard), I'm thinking Roger is mistaken, unless he means water containers around the centreboard or something. They have also made a few other changes compared to the CLC offering, that seem a good idea to me. I have also asked about plans.

Here is some footage of a Skerry Raid sailing and surfing in force 4 -6, as filmed from another boat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ5yEW5SbRM

Are you getting interested Brian?

[skaraborgcraft]

I would have no issues being the first to build something from Paul Fisher or Tom Dunderdale, they have both enough designs already built to be as confident as anyone could be of getting it right.
Did you want to trailer this craft or car top it?

I have the plans for Michalaks Pauls boat, 36in beam, 120lb, i think it could be built possibly a wee bit lighter. My thought was to try the standard boat, and if too tippy for me, then build some Solway Dory type outriggers.



I do like Skerry, but do you want to paddle or row?

[Adrian Valley]

Row, my shoulders are stuffed (frozen), but rowing works ok and is good for them. I agree about the reputation of both designers, I just would rather see a boat in the flesh before I go to the considerable (for me) effort of building one. I haven't seen the Pauls boat before, not sure about the colour of that one. Re car topping, I initially started thinking that a design that could be car topped would be good, but nothing quite fits the bill at the moment and the Skerry Raid is soooooo eye catching.....

[skaraborgcraft]

I think Skerry would be hard to beat. I have plans on the go for a skin-on-frame Swedish hunting canoe, which was based upon the biggest thing i might be able to lift without too much difficulty onto the car, and avoid the use of a trailer. These things have been paddled, rowed and powered by small inboards and obviously sailed. Traditionaly many built entirely in oak, so quite a heavy little boat, and certainly no car topper!
Skerry would be a good modern alternative to the boats below.

[sailinpapi]

Adrian

If you want to keep light and a proven design ..... and are willing to give up the double ending then Lillistone's Pheonix iii must be worth consideration and it includes built in buoyancy and rig options. Look at the threads by WI-Tom and the videos by Paul Hernes. Was alos featured in Small Boats a couple of years back


Richard

[Adrian Valley]

Skaraborgcraft, those are stunning boats!! If the Skerry Raid ends up anything like a modern interpretation of one of those designs I would be stoked!

Richard, I have looked at Phoenix 111 for ages now, it is certainly a great design and in many ways it would be perfect for my needs, but at the end of the day the Skerry Raid just appeals more......

[sailinpapi]

Adrian

Go to the Arwen Marine website and look at the photosets on: 'Le Nouvelles' ........ Enjoy

Richard

[Alan H]

It appears that the RAID is somewhat a boat you can sail "on", as well as "in". Having sailed performance dinghies for a long time, I had a dickens of a time getting used to sitting IN my skerry rather than ON, it (hiking out). The side decks on the RAID make hiking out a bit more practical. Also, the slightly wider beam should give the boat a bit more form stability.

I admit that looking at the RAID tempts me to put a light plywood foredeck on my standard skerry. Truth is, though I never take much water in over the front...it's always shipped in over the side, and when that happens, it's not a "little bit" of water! LOL.

[skaraborgcraft]

Skaraborgcraft, those are stunning boats!! If the Skerry Raid ends up anything like a modern interpretation of one of those designs I would be stoked!

......

I think the eye is drawn to a sheer with a curve and double ended shapes (i know mine is). I was working on a lightweight adaption of the Swedish boat before Skerry came out, and didnt get as far as ply development after seeing Skerry. Though i think i might have the first SOF version.

[Adrian Valley]

Please keep us posted when you get there with your SOF version.

[swoody126]

I think the eye is drawn to a sheer with a curve and double ended shapes (i know mine is). I was working on a lightweight adaption of the Swedish boat before Skerry came out, and didnt get as far as ply development after seeing Skerry. Though i think i might have the first SOF version.

i just saw the SOF version of a MELON SEED @ SAIL-OK and am quite impressed w/ what can be done with that method.

sw

[skaraborgcraft]

i just saw the SOF version of a MELON SEED @ SAIL-OK and am quite impressed w/ what can be done with that method.

sw

It certainly helps to have a hull shape that is suited for skinning, the Swedish jaktkanot is basically a deep heavy canoe and its sections should take fabric without too much bother. I have a pointed stern pram dinghy that is also in the works, but these keep getting pushed back due to time constraints. Im surprised there are not more of them.

[Adrian Valley]

I just received a reply from Arwen Marine re the Skerry Raid. Emmanuel made a few slight modifications to the design, that seem like a really good idea to me and has much positive to say about the Skerry Raid:

Hello Adrian,

I don’t quite agree with Roger about the Skerry Raid being a rowing-sailing design rather than a sailing-rowing one. The big difference between the Skerry Raid and the Ilur is size: the Skerry Raid is a small boat and the Ilur is larger. That means that their behavior on the water is very different: I would not cruise with the Skerry the same way Roger does on Avel Dro (cook aboard, sleep aboard, and so forth).

Regarding seaworthiness and speed, I think they are equal, or rather the advantage is with the Skerry: although I had no chance to try it, I think recovery after a capsize is possible with no assistance on the Skerry, and almost impossible with the Ilur, because of the difference in buoyancy chambers volume.

Of course, the real difference is in weight: where the Skerry hull weights 60 to 65 kg, the Ilur’s is around 250 kg. This means that you can move the Skerry on the beach by yourself with a light trolley, for instance, whereas you would have to use beach rollers with the Ilur, much more cumbersome.

I did not install ballast tanks in the Skerry Raid, but I use two 20 l plastic cans placed on either side of the centerboard trunk to add a bit of inertia to the boat when it is not loaded with camping gear and such. When empty, they add their bit to total buoyancy capacity.

I use a 7.60 m2 standing lug sail with two deep reef bands on which I installed blocks and cleats to reef it very easily and quickly while seating on the center seat.
This should be replaced with a small Bermudan storm sail to be used to gain against the wind when it is above 5 Beaufort. That is in my opinion the weak point of the lug sail: when the wind is too strong, it becomes worthless to beat against the wind.

The forward and aft compartments are very handy to stow the gear for a few day’s camping trip, with room under the forward deck for a couple more watertight bags. Their kayak-type hatch is 100% waterproof, which add a lot of confidence when sailing in bad conditions, since the volume in there is huge. I tied inflatable flotation bags under the deck on either side of the mast to improve lateral stability of the flooded boat, but as I already wrote, did not try that situation. You can see those bags on a few pictures on that page: http://www.arwenmarine.com/NewsAC1609.html

I am very happy of the thwart because I feel that the centerboard trunk requires this to be solid. I just opened the lower part of the bulkhead provided in the plans or kit and left it in place with the thwart on top (the bulkhead is supposed to be used only to help shape the hull when stitching and to be removed after gluing the planking). I doubled the thwart with a solid beam holding the forward end of the trunk under the deck. You can see on this page: http://www.arwenmarine.com/News15011813.html

The other change I made was adding the aft cockpit seat which doubles as small additional dry storage that is easily reachable while sailing, very nice for the camera, a sweater or a snack. You can see on this page: http://www.arwenmarine.com/News1501256.html
It adds a little stiffness in the aft section of the boat and a bit more volume yet again to the flotation tanks.

I modified the trunk so that the board is inserted and taken out like a daggerboard, but once inserted in the trunk, it can be pivoted as a regular centerboard on twin disks glued to the board. I “stole” this idea from François Vivier, and I find it great because you have the advantages of both types of boards and it never gets stuck with gravel in the surf for instance, because you always manage to move it enough to free it. http://www.arwenmarine.com/NewsSKROne31.html and http://www.arwenmarine.com/NewsSKROne33.html

I think you could get the plans or a kit from Denman Marine, or directly from John Harris at CLC. I started from a kit provided by Fyne in the UK, like all my CLC kits since I have no CNC installation. I have seen on their Facebook page that another Skerry Raid was built in the UK with the same modifications I made.

I hope this helps. If you notice anything else not too clear on this page, I’ll be glad to provide more explanations (in English!): http://www.arwenmarine.com/NewsSKROne.html

Sincerely,

Emmanuel Conrath

[John hartmann]

The ilur is self rescuable:

[Adrian Valley]

Hi John,

I watched your Ilur capsize recovery video when it first came out and it was great to see that the Ilur can be self rescued in deep water. Not sure if you have already seen this, but Roger Barnes has something to say about this as well after his unfortunate capsize: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-rJH9D_908 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqwhUHjeCeE

When I contacted Emmanuel I was really interested in what it might be like to recover a Skerry Raid after a capsize and the comparison happened, as I had already made reference to the Ilur as another option for me. I don't think Emmanuel was intending to dis the Ilur at all (he's a Vivier plans/kit dealer!) and I took his comments to mean that he thought the Skerry Raid might be easier to recover after a capsize.

Cheers,

Adrian

[Adrian Valley]

I just heard back from Dillon at CLC as well, about their Expedition sailing canoe. It's going to be made available as a kit (possible plans and templates later), without a full manual, but with simple step by step instructions. There will be the option for small (Solway Dory style) amas and two mast steps to allow for sailing with or without a mizzen and deep reef options down to 35 sqft. He also said that it is self rescue-able (tested by Waterlust), but he has added some side flotation, to keep water out of the cockpit in the event of a capsize. I have posted his letter in the CLC Expedition canoe thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...nn-Canoe/page3

Just when I had sort of decided on the Skerry Raid.........

[keyhavenpotterer]

I guess Adrian, you have two fine choices. How you plan to sail, the waters, launch and retrieve, the practical stuff can help you choose.

Dinghy needs trailer or local trolley storage at a club. If there is a nice group of dinghy cruising people to sail with that would work well.

The sailing canoe groups launch and retrieve in places much wilder and free. Any shallow beach to land or sail from. Portaging also easy. My sailing canoe were handled using a roof loading system. Have fun choosing.

Brian

[Adrian Valley]

Hi Brian,

Spot on there Brian, YOU HAVE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD...... The area I live in is "boisterous". It blows 10-20 kts on a summer day and a small swell is one and a half metres. There is a local sailing club, where I could possibly store the boat on a trolley, but I'm not really into that. Dinghy cruising is not really a happening thing here (a real shame) and I would probably launch from a relatively sheltered beach into open sea.

If I was in the UK I think I would be canoe sailing in Scotland and I had visions of something similar here, but sort of concluded that the current canoe sailing designs available to me would not be up to the local conditions. That being the case and following the response from Emmanuel, it seemed that the Skerry Raid might be more suitable and capable(and stunning to boot), but Dillon's reply has me wondering again if the Expedition Sailing Canoe might cope with the local conditions?

In conclusion, I'm buggered if I know. Your description of canoe sailing with the ability to "launch and retrieve in places much wilder and free" sounds like what I'm after and would fit better with our 4wd camping holidays down dirt tracks to remote WA beaches. I'm sure 10 minutes sailing in both designs would make things clear, but obviously that's not possible, I think I need to build both.........

Adrian

[skaraborgcraft]

^ Thats a good idea!