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Thread: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Attachment 93870

    And push it all the way on

    101_0202.jpg

    Then strap it on as you would a canoe. You will need longer straps than you would for a canoe though.
    You can see my dolly is a 2x4 with lawn mower wheels set in the ends, and attached with a single wing-nut.
    I usually leave it in place until after I launch the boat.

    101_0206.jpg

    My racks are the old "Quick n Easy" brand, designed when cars still had gutters on the roof. For a while they sold "gutter brackets" to go with them that were simply bolted to the roof of gutterless cars. This is the third car I've had 'em on, and I keep my rigs till the wheels fall off....

    I can't recommend any kind of new rack I'm afraid, I don't know anything about them.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    As far as epoxy, the Featherwind doesn't need any at all. I highly recommend using Titebond III glue. It is as strong, or stronger, than epoxy, and way easier to use. The only need for epoxy might be for fiber glassing the bottom, if you decide to glass it.

    I do recommend glassing the bottom of a 1/4 inch plywood boat, but I just use Bondo polyester resin for that. We're not sailing off to Tahiti in this little boat, no need for the expense of epoxy.


    Oh, and do get good AC exterior grade plywood, not 3/16th underlayment!

  3. #38
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Etdbob View Post
    As far as epoxy, the Featherwind doesn't need any at all. I highly recommend using Titebond III glue. It is as strong, or stronger, than epoxy, and way easier to use. The only need for epoxy might be for fiber glassing the bottom, if you decide to glass it.
    Did you do butt blocks for scarfing the sides and bottom? The builds that I've seen online have used epoxy and glass tape on both sides for the plywood joints. Titebond III is definitely the plan.

    Oh, and do get good AC exterior grade plywood, not 3/16th underlayment!
    Roger roger on that, your Bilge thread makes the point very effectively with just the one bonfire picture. I think that I won't glass the bottom for my first boat and I might do some Ken Simpson TBIII waterproofing on the edges before I paint it.

    -Neil

  4. #39
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    central cal
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    If you have good fits and the joints are well glued and fastened, you don’t NEED glass, at all. We have a couple fir ply boats with nary a drop of epoxy that just won’t die.

    We keep them clean and dry when they ain’t being boats, and we keep the well painted. Check? Some. So?

    Lately, I’ve taken to coating the bottom and chine of my pirogues and skiff with truck bed liner material. Way more better than glass.

    ETA: And, yes, butt blocks. I like them for thin ply. Make sure to slather the ends of the planks/sheets with glue, too, and I also like to use nails or tacks driven and clenched AFTER the glue dries.

    And, my proa thread is proof enough to not even use ply you suspect, even if you think it MIGHT be okay. I’ve never had a problem with fir ply, though. Well picked stuff, that is.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Re: TBIII -- saying it is easier to use than epoxy is, I think, a little misleading. It's certainly easier to mix! But it requires a much better glue joint and a lot more clamping pressure than epoxy does, which means it actually may require better carpentry -- for some people, not having to mix epoxy makes that worth it, but it's certainly a tradeoff.
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Etdbob View Post
    G
    If you wish I can send you info on making the 100 sq.ft. sail I used. I think it's a bit much unless you sail with other people for ballast and maybe live in a light wind area.

    I also have plans for a similar but smaller 75 sq. ft. balanced lug sail that may be more appropriate.
    - Or just buy a Sunfish rig!
    I'm just now starting to consider what I want for a rig. I think that I'm sold on the balanced lug propaganda around here and I'd like to stay around the 75 square foot mark of the sunfish sail. But, I haven't figure out the sail area math for what that would look like on a balanced lug. And I have just started reading up on making polytarp sails and I wonder if I might go the sunfish route just to get on the water more easily, instead of learning sailmaking before I can try sailing.

    I'd love to see what you have used for the 100 and 75 sq. ft. lug rigs!

    -Neil

  7. #42
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilMB View Post
    I'm just now starting to consider what I want for a rig. I think that I'm sold on the balanced lug propaganda around here and I'd like to stay around the 75 square foot mark of the sunfish sail. But, I haven't figure out the sail area math for what that would look like on a balanced lug. And I have just started reading up on making polytarp sails and I wonder if I might go the sunfish route just to get on the water more easily, instead of learning sailmaking before I can try sailing.

    I'd love to see what you have used for the 100 and 75 sq. ft. lug rigs!

    -Neil
    Jim Michalak offers a 68 sq ft balance lug with some of his plans (the Mixer, I think). That's the one I used on my 14' Bolger boat, and it worked well enough to let me do lots of fun things (even though it was a crudely made polytarp sail). $25 for the plans, which gives sail dimensions. Might be worth a look.

    Here's my 68 sq ft sail in action:

    DSCF0803.jpg

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  8. #43
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    It's hard to beat the Duck Punt for handling in or out of the water.

  9. #44
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    Austin, TX
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    If you don't mind spending a little money, here are two good options. I really like a good balanced lug, powerful and easy to raise, reef, and drop.

    https://duckworks.com/rss-ozgoose-ozracer-sail/
    https://duckworks.com/rss-viola-sailing-canoe-lugsail/


    1D393F7A-431D-490F-A1E8-4F67FDE331D3_4_5005_c.jpeg
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  10. #45
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    I'm coming to this conversation late, but I've been through this thinking exercise for a long time.

    My advice: bite the bullet and go with a trailered boat. Why?

    1: There's a lot of extra gear involved here: In a trailer, it can stay in the boat. On the roof, it cannot.
    2: When you get home, there's work to be done if the boat is on the roof. On a trailer, just sponge it out and throw a cover over it.
    3: The biggest reason: A trailered boat can easily take the whole family. Much better to have that option.
    4: The Mississippi River is big -- therefore, you really want a bigger boat. (It doesn't have to be deeper.)

    FYI: I have a Whisp, which was mentioned earlier. They are not recoverable in a capsize if built to plan. And 3 on board is pretty much the max. But they do row very nicely and yes, they are light.
    -Dave

  11. #46
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_gr8t_waldo View Post
    It's hard to beat the Duck Punt for handling in or out of the water.
    Thanks for the pointer on that one, it's a design that I hadn't looked at yet. I think that it will be too small for my passenger dreams but for one person, its probably just the right thing for sailing on a very shallow river.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    I'm coming to this conversation late, but I've been through this thinking exercise for a long time.

    My advice: bite the bullet and go with a trailered boat. Why?

    1: There's a lot of extra gear involved here: In a trailer, it can stay in the boat. On the roof, it cannot.
    2: When you get home, there's work to be done if the boat is on the roof. On a trailer, just sponge it out and throw a cover over it.
    3: The biggest reason: A trailered boat can easily take the whole family. Much better to have that option.
    4: The Mississippi River is big -- therefore, you really want a bigger boat. (It doesn't have to be deeper.)
    Thanks for your input any time! Nothing is committed to wood yet, so all paths are still open. You make a really good point about the setup and put away benefits of a trailer. Those are the parts of an adventure that I always mis-underestimate. i am thinking about a big, light boat, the Nutmeg at 16 feet and around 110 pounds. With your thinking, I figure I can wrestle with it and take the time to fill it with gear and take it off the car until I get tired of that and put it on a trailer.

    FYI: I have a Whisp, which was mentioned earlier. They are not recoverable in a capsize if built to plan. And 3 on board is pretty much the max. But they do row very nicely and yes, they are light.
    I think that the Nutmeg and the Summer Breeze both get some of their light weight from the same source as the Whisp, minimal internal structure. I am already thinking about ways to add flotation and test out capsizing on our pond. What if the side benches were made out of pink foam and could be anchored to what frames there are in the boat?

    Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts.

    -Neil

  13. #48
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    If you don't mind spending a little money, here are two good options. I really like a good balanced lug, powerful and easy to raise, reef, and drop.

    https://duckworks.com/rss-ozgoose-ozracer-sail/
    https://duckworks.com/rss-viola-sailing-canoe-lugsail/
    I love those. Michael Storer's site has been such a gold mine of information for me as I get into this. Money is the issue on those for sure. Each of those sails is 150 or 200% of the total cost of all of the remaining supplies for this boat.

    Maybe someday I will be a good enough sailor or boat builder to deserve something that fine, but for my first project, it's hard for me to commit to that level of cost, especially given the economics on the other materials for the boat (cheap that is).

    On the mass-production front, Dave Carnell designed the mast position around the Sunfish's lateen rig and new Sunfish sails go for $150 - $200 and I found a used one for $40 https://sailingforums.com/threads/us...hipping.44340/

    If I can live with the lateen rig, it's hard to imagine a more affordable "real" sail. Looking online suggests that the lateen should be easy to raise and easy to drop but not too straightforward to reef. I am imagining rigging it after the fashion of Storer's Oz Goose with rope fittings and minimal hardware. A ring and cleat for the halyard and two blocks on the boom for a one-part sheet led back to the middle of the boat?

    Sails definitely seem like the sticky wicket of cheap homemade boats. Darnell's idea to leverage an existing pool of pre-made sails is fascinating for this.

    -Neil
    Last edited by NeilMB; 09-01-2021 at 10:09 AM.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    At least for the OzGoose, Storer has plans for making a high quality sail (at least, as best as possible) out of poly tarp, and has some advice on doing it. Obviously since he cares about performance, hes not going to pretend Dacron and poly tarp are the same, but he still makes it a real option (I sewed one for the smaller Oz racer took several hours but came out pretty well).
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Did you do butt blocks for scarfing the sides and bottom? The builds that I've seen online have used epoxy and glass tape on both sides for the plywood joints. Titebond III is definitely the plan.
    Yes, the Featherwind plans call for simple butt blocks, made before the sides are cut out!

    Slice two sheets of plywood into two foot wide strips, and butt block them together. Put the butt blocks on the "bad" side of the plywood, which will be the inside of the boat.

    Put waxed paper or something under the planks! This can be done outside in nice weather, just lay a sheet of plywood down and use that for a base. In the photo you can see I've nailed the ply strips being blocked together down to my hay loft floor with thin finishing nails, with little bits of scrap ply under the heads for easy removing.
    This keeps 'em nice and straight.

    Then I slathered on the glue (Titebond II in this case), placed the butt blocks and added lead weights. I may have used short brass screws as I did in my first boat too, I forget.

    -Ah, looking closely I see that I used scraps of ply nailed through the butt blocks and into the floor.

    SAM_6338.jpg

    Let them go until completely dry. This is what they looked like when done.
    You can see a pencil line down the center of the butt block to help me get it centered when positioning 'em.

    When the boat was done I stuck a 2" wide strip of fiberglass tape over the outside of this joint using polyester resin. If there is one place on this boat to use epoxy, this might be it. I do firmly believe in reinforcing the outside joint of a butt block with glass tape.

    SAM_6342.jpg

    Next, mark one strip for cutting out the sides on the Inside (the butt block side), use one of your 16' long gunwale strips that you sliced from a nice 2x4 or 2x6 as a batten and mark the curve with a pencil.

    Note that only one was marked. Next, stack the marked plank on top of the unmarked plank, (making sure the butt block is down on the bottom plank, and of course up on the top plank). This way we only have to lay out one side and we cut both planks at once, getting two identical sides. Clamp the planks together well, and/or simply nail them together in spots that will be cut off anyway. I nailed mine right to the scrap 2x4 blocking under them so nothing moved during cutting.

    SAM_6352.jpg

    Last, cut them out with a circular saw set for a fairly shallow cut. You can see here that I did cut both at once.

    SAM_6355.jpg

    As you can see, this is a very easy boat to build.

    My advice: bite the bullet and go with a trailered boat. Why?

    1: There's a lot of extra gear involved here: In a trailer, it can stay in the boat. On the roof, it cannot.
    2: When you get home, there's work to be done if the boat is on the roof. On a trailer, just sponge it out and throw a cover over it.
    3: The biggest reason: A trailered boat can easily take the whole family. Much better to have that option.
    4: The Mississippi River is big -- therefore, you really want a bigger boat. (It doesn't have to be deeper.)

    The Featherwind is designed to be light enough to car-top, to get folks on the water with a minimum of expense. But it is a 16 foot boat and there certainly isn't any reason not to put it on a trailer if you can afford one or happen to find a good used trailer. It could probably go on an inexpensive Harbor Freight flat bed trailer.

    Some folk build this boat with fore and aft decks

  16. #51
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    Aug 2015
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    517

    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilMB View Post
    I love those. Michael Storer's site has been such a gold mine of information for me as I get into this. Money is the issue on those for sure. Each of those sails is 150 or 200% of the total cost of all of the remaining supplies for this boat.

    Maybe someday I will be a good enough sailor or boat builder to deserve something that fine, but for my first project, it's hard for me to commit to that level of cost, especially given the economics on the other materials for the boat (cheap that is).

    On the mass-production front, Dave Carnell designed the mast position around the Sunfish's lateen rig and new Sunfish sails go for $150 - $200 and I found a used one for $40 https://sailingforums.com/threads/us...hipping.44340/

    If I can live with the lateen rig, it's hard to imagine a more affordable "real" sail. Looking online suggests that the lateen should be easy to raise and easy to drop but not too straightforward to reef. I am imagining rigging it after the fashion of Storer's Oz Goose with rope fittings and minimal hardware. A ring and cleat for the halyard and two blocks on the boom for a one-part sheet led back to the middle of the boat?

    Sails definitely seem like the sticky wicket of cheap homemade boats. Darnell's idea to leverage an existing pool of pre-made sails is fascinating for this.

    -Neil
    I have a polytarp sail that came with my Jim Michalak Mayfly 14, about 74 sqft. The boat was a gift in rough shape. I rebuilt the Mayfly and bought a new sail. I will give you the polytarp sail if you pay for shipping. PM me if you want it.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  17. #52
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    Jun 2021
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    Decorah, Iowa, USA
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    Plans for the Carnell Nutmeg arrived in the mail thanks to Tom Vetromile in Idaho. They are an impressive package indeed, with Bolger's original article on Featherwind, lots of building instructions and large plans for the side planks, frames, and sail plan.

    I'm still up in the air about building this design. It's epically simple and thus very lightweight at a predicted 105t pounds but it is most definitely a 15.5 foot long boat. I'm just not certain how well it will cartop. Jim Michalak talks about 12 feet and 90 pounds being an upper limit for car-topping http://www.jimsboats.com/webarchives/2000/15apr00.htm
    and jumping to a trailer and a 16 footer as the next step after that.

    So I wanted to build a model and see how the whole thing would feel.
    IMG_20210909_163222.jpg

    It's 1:12 scale and came out right at 15.4 by 4.3 inches. One thing that I don't really get from looking at lines drawings is just how pointy a boat with an aspect ratio of 4 is. Maybe it's because of how we take pictures of boats from the side, but this completely normal sail/row skiff feels like a dart when I hold the model.

    To find out how well it would cartop I needed a scale model of my Suburban, or at least of the roof rack. My son and I went with Duplos for that.

    IMG_20210909_163000.jpg

    IMG_20210909_163120.jpg

    It feels very doable geometrically. The suburban is a really long car and its height off the ground seems like it will take most of the boat just sliding the transom inward on its wheels before having to pick up the back end.

    I still need to make a final decision and plan out the funding for materials, but I got ahead of myself and bought a Sunfish sale because the price was right. So it looks like it'll be a lateen rigged Nutmeg at least to start with. 75 sq ft on a 10' mast and 13.8' spars.

    Thanks to everyone here for your comments and suggestions. Hopefully I can switch to a build thread sometime before the end of 2021.

    -Neil

  18. #53
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    Mar 2017
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    Default Re: First build, car toppable, learn to sail, Upper Mississippi?

    I am impressed with your models!

    I made a cardboard Featherwind too, before I built the real thing. I sure didn't build a scale model of my car though!

    The extra length actually makes it easier to car-top, as long as it's still as light as possible. It's the only car-top boat that will sail three or four adults that I know of. I thiink the Sunfish sail will work very well, mine was over canvased!

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