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Thread: Woke

  1. #1
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    Default Woke

    I have been noticing the increasing intolerance and absolutism of the far-left people in the Bilge with concern. Here in Brasil we are still undergoing the trauma of a far-right government. It pains me to think that when the other side takes power again they may swing the pendulum too far, setting the stage for a return of the RWW.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/o...gtype=Homepage

    • “The younger generation (wrongly) perceives free speech as hazardous to minority rights.”
    • “The purist side has had more passion, focus and organization than the pluralist side.”
    • “Universities are consumeristic these days and very image-conscious, and so they have trouble withstanding pressure from their ‘customers,’ e.g., activist students.”
    • “The use of social pressure to manipulate opinion is a powerful and sophisticated form of information warfare. Anyone can be dogpiled in minutes for any reason, or no reason.”
    • “Activists have figured out that they can have disproportionate influence by claiming to be physically endangered and psychologically traumatized by speech that offends them.”

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Woke

    I used to think I was a liberal minded social democrat but now I know I’m just past my “sell by” date.

    Nobody wants moderation in all things now, it’s all ideological purity and intolerance.

    We’ve been here before; it never ends well.

    1. In good King Charles' golden time, when loyalty no harm meant,
    A zealous high churchman was I, and so I gained preferment.
    To teach my flock, I never missed: Kings are by God appointed
    And damned are those who dare resist or touch the Lord's annointed.

    (Chorus):

    And this be law, that I'll maintain until my dying day, sir
    That whatsoever king may reign, Still I'll be the Vicar of Bray, sir.

    2. When royal James possessed the crown, and popery came in fashion,
    The penal laws I hooted down, and read the Declaration.
    The Church of Rome, I found, did fit full well my constitution
    And I had been a Jesuit, but for the Revolution.

    (Chorus)

    3. When William was our King declared, to ease the nation's grievance,
    With this new wind about I steered, and swore to him allegiance.
    Old principles I did revoke; Set conscience at a distance,
    Passive obedience was a joke, a jest was non-resistance.

    (Chorus)

    4. When Royal Anne became our queen, the Church of England's glory,
    Another face of things was seen, and I became a Tory.
    Occasional conformists base; I blamed their moderation;
    And thought the Church in danger was from such prevarication.

    (Chorus)

    5. When George in pudding time came o'er, and moderate men looked big, sir
    My principles I changed once more, and I became a Whig, sir.
    And thus preferment I procured From our new Faith's Defender,
    And almost every day abjured the Pope and the Pretender.

    (Chorus)

    6. The illustrious house of Hanover and Protestant succession
    To these I do allegiance swear -- while they can hold possession.
    For in my faith and loyalty I never more will falter,
    And George my lawful king shall be -- until the times do alter.

    (Chorus)
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Woke

    I can't disagree on either the points raised about free speech or the lack of tolerance in the Bilge. I had a conversation with a very earnest young guy about what he called "hate speech". He claimed it should be outlawed & I asked him to define it in a way that would allow a court to convict someone. "Well we all know what it is". "OK - maybe we do, but you have to prove it to a judge or jury - how do you do that?". He was stumped, but not very happy with me for not just agreeing with him.

    Here in the Bilge, the intolerance manifests as instantly label someone you disagree with as a troll & you never have to deal with hearing their opinion again. If you don't want to carry on a conversation with the person - fine - don't - but let others talk.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Woke

    where's the "basic science" on the genetic basis for hatred of gays, george. still waiting.

    where's the argument that makes it a "fact" that rick santorum is "right", european immigrants "birthed a nation from nothing...there is very little native american culture in american culture".

    you mistake responding to insult and ignorance as wokeness.

    this thread is cancelled.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Woke

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    where's the "basic science" on the genetic basis for hatred of gays, george. still waiting.

    where's the argument that makes it a "fact" that rick santorum is "right", european immigrants "birthed a nation from nothing...there is very little native american culture in american culture".

    you mistake responding to insult and ignorance as wokeness.

    this thread is cancelled.


    QED

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Woke

    you're welcome.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Woke

    where's the basic science george.

    i will accept a screen shot of the page in the textbook you learned it from.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Woke

    . . . just don't bring it with flat-earthism or eugenics or other intolerable stuff.
    At the risk of quibbling, those two things are quite different. One can make a rational case for certain kinds of eugenics (not the Nazi kind, obviously). It may conflict with other good things (current human freedom and dignity vs the desirability of freeing future people from various genetic problems). How good the case is (and I don't think it's very good) depends on how you weight the different values.

    Flat-earthism is simply wrong, like 3+2=17

    Man, I sure did piss off Mr. Baxter. To be strictly accurate, nobody's defending the first half of Santorum's statement (birthed a nation from nothing).
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 05-26-2021 at 08:01 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Woke

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post

    Man, I sure did piss off Mr. Baxter. To be strictly accurate, nobody's defending the first half of Santorum's statement (birthed a nation from nothing).
    right. and instead of taking santorum at his literal word, you reinterpret what he said to coincide with something you happen to believe is "fact". why did you do that? why are you an apologist for anything that jagoff has to say while backing out of his heart felt bigotry?

    why would you tell me that "you just can't stand the fact that santorum is right on this one". when you yourself have just said that he's not.

    tell me again how silly i am.

    come trotting in here with the sneering "libs are so woke, lol" marjorie taylor greene defense of insult and see what kind of conversation you are going to have with me.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Woke

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Right. and instead of taking Santorum at his literal word, you reinterpret what he said . . .
    He said two things. One of them was wrong, one correct. If I say 'the sun is shining and it's Thursday', the first part is right, the second wrong, and you wouldn't be 'reinterpreting' anything if you say, 'No it's Wednesday, but you're right, the sun in shining'.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    Come trotting in here with the sneering "libs are so woke, lol" Marjorie Taylor Greene defense of insult and see what kind of conversation you are going to have with me.
    Oooh, nice one.

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Woke

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I used to think I was a liberal minded social democrat but now I know I’m just past my “sell by” date.

    Nobody wants moderation in all things now, it’s all ideological purity and intolerance.

    We’ve been here before; it never ends well.

    1. In good King Charles' golden time, when loyalty no harm meant,
    A zealous high churchman was I, and so I gained preferment.
    To teach my flock, I never missed: Kings are by God appointed
    And damned are those who dare resist or touch the Lord's annointed.

    (Chorus):

    And this be law, that I'll maintain until my dying day, sir
    That whatsoever king may reign, Still I'll be the Vicar of Bray, sir.

    2. When royal James possessed the crown, and popery came in fashion,
    The penal laws I hooted down, and read the Declaration.
    The Church of Rome, I found, did fit full well my constitution
    And I had been a Jesuit, but for the Revolution.

    (Chorus)

    3. When William was our King declared, to ease the nation's grievance,
    With this new wind about I steered, and swore to him allegiance.
    Old principles I did revoke; Set conscience at a distance,
    Passive obedience was a joke, a jest was non-resistance.

    (Chorus)

    4. When Royal Anne became our queen, the Church of England's glory,
    Another face of things was seen, and I became a Tory.
    Occasional conformists base; I blamed their moderation;
    And thought the Church in danger was from such prevarication.

    (Chorus)

    5. When George in pudding time came o'er, and moderate men looked big, sir
    My principles I changed once more, and I became a Whig, sir.
    And thus preferment I procured From our new Faith's Defender,
    And almost every day abjured the Pope and the Pretender.

    (Chorus)

    6. The illustrious house of Hanover and Protestant succession
    To these I do allegiance swear -- while they can hold possession.
    For in my faith and loyalty I never more will falter,
    And George my lawful king shall be -- until the times do alter.

    (Chorus)
    Sounds like the Public Service you Brits are so proud of.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Woke

    Is it better to be drugged than woke?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Woke

    And yet in the US it’s Republicans passing laws restricting speech in fear of wokeness, woke being a term they’ve deliberately misused to touch all matters of race and gender.

    Yup George, it’s the woke that are making you feel icky about gay sex.

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    Default Re: Woke

    Of course the real dynamic is old bigots want to keep the safe history they learned in school decades ago and are mad things have moved on. The notion that human settlement in the Americas was larger than they were taught, more advanced than they were taught, and more environmentally impactful challenges belief on right and left, but it’s always gotta be viewed through the lens of conservative victimhood.

    and that victimhood sees threats everywhere, from everything, even when they don’t exist
    https://www.chronicle.com/article/a-...y-didnt-happen
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 05-26-2021 at 09:16 AM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Woke

    Considering the level of reactionary nonsense going around, if the pendulum swings left for a bit, I am all for it. There is a lot of conservative damage to repair, after all...
    Last edited by Gerarddm; 05-26-2021 at 12:47 PM.
    Gerard>
    Langley, WA

    Don't believe Republican lies.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Woke

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    He said two things. One of them was wrong, one correct. If I say 'the sun is shining and it's Thursday', the first part is right, the second wrong, and you wouldn't be 'reinterpreting' anything if you say, 'No it's Wednesday, but you're right, the sun in shining'.
    no, the second thing he said was an unmeasurable and unverifiable value judgment. an opinion, in other words, utterly subject to interpretation. in this case, interpretation of words.

    you chose to interpret his qualifier "very little" to be "true". and you elevate your own use of words like "most" and "very little" to the status of "fact". fact on which you and santorum are, in your mind, in agreement. and "facts" which, in your mind, i "can't stand".

    and then you pour on the history lessons, waving your hand at counter-examples provided by others, as if we don't understand the historical record just as well as you, as if historical evidence has anything to do with proving the "accuracy" of your nebulous values.

    ooo nice one back atcha.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Woke

    Sit down and shut up. You already had your turn and now it is over. Better yet, please leave as you are no longer wanted here.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Woke

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Sit down and shut up. You already had your turn and now it is over. Better yet, please leave as you are no longer wanted here.
    nah.

    if you want to post inflammatory ****, knock yourself out. expect some friction, or mucho friction, depending.

    we have a culture war raging. anybody siding up with rick santorum, on whatever principle, is abetting white nationalism, and his attempt at white-washing our history and culture. your best intentions mean fa.

    in the case of native american influence on modern american culture, there is evidence to support qualifying words ranging from "very little" to "a lot". there is no "factual" conclusion to be reached, only interpretation.

    ask the native american closest to you how they feel about rick santorum's words. then decide how to "be best".

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Woke

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    where's the basic science george.

    i will accept a screen shot of the page in the textbook you learned it from.

    Ah, the self-knowledge...

    No you wont.

    You'll just resort to attacking the source, the author, whatever. If they say something you don't want to hear, then they are wrong. You ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know, you know?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Sit down and shut up. You already had your turn and now it is over. Better yet, please leave as you are no longer wanted here.
    Ah, won't you please, please let me stay to see you explain how...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    ... the US ... saved the world from Nazis ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Ah, won't you please, please let me stay to see you explain how...

    he didn’t want to be woke and dis his heritage

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    Default Re: Woke

    Some more of the article, which of course the woke won't read, because they don't want to believe:

    “Do you think there is a growing cancel culture that is a threat to our freedom or not?” By 64-36, a majority of voters said they thought there was. Republicans see a threat by 80-20; independents by 64-34, but Democrats were split, with a slight majority, 52-48, saying they do not see a threat. This basic pattern is observable across a number of issues.


    Although centrist Democrats make up a majority of the party in the polls I cited above, the fact that a substantial minority of Democrats takes the more extreme stance allows Republicans to portray the Democratic Party as very much in thrall to its more “radical” wing.


  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Ah, the self-knowledge...

    No you wont.

    You'll just resort to attacking the source, the author, whatever. If they say something you don't want to hear, then they are wrong. You ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know, you know?
    what a weasel.

    my apologies to weasels.

    you made a claim that the hatred of gays is rooted in a disgust reaction to homosexual sex, which is an instinct resulting from evolution, in which homosexuality is maladaptive.

    i made no positive claim, but my observation of nature makes me think that homosexuality is a normal behavior, not maladaptive, that propagation of a species is not identical to reproduction of the individual, that same gender attraction plays some part in species' success. i make no claim to this idea being science, but it feels as sciency as anything you have written.

    you said your claim is basic science. i just want to know where you learned that load of hot garbage. so lay it on me.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Woke

    So anyone know what the word "woke" really means in these conversations? Or is it merely a convenient epithet of choice to be lobbed against some group whose views are not "establishment" or "Trumpist"?

    I mean, "woke" seems to include old school Stalinist-Leninist Marxism, and all the neo-Marxist variations which reject the icky gulag bits but keep the class war ... but then any number of other identity politics -isms. Some breeds of feminism (not to be conflated with other breeds of gender politics), old school Edward Said-like post-colonialism, new school post-colonialism of the postmodern sort, a few different iterations of theory about race as it plays out in modern late-capitalist societies ... which interweave with other narratives of race or ethnic identity in less developed parts of the world, in the "liminal spaces" (like international shipping, or temporary foreign workers etc.) between those economies too.

    I mean, all of these words represent an enormous set of splinterings and differentiations and caveats and qualifications between the groups being defined and "given voice," and all of the theories are rather promiscuously sharing fluids with each other and morphing into new and different things.

    All of which are dominant solely within maybe 15% of the 15% of the population which was ever educated in ways which they were even able to be exposed to them.

    So WTF does "Woke" mean, other than "You're not even a RINO"?

    Yes, "Republicans ... portray the Democratic Party as very much in thrall to its more 'radical' wing", but is that actually true anywhere except on FOX and OAN and the derivative RWW blather sites? Is it any more true than the accusation that Pizzagate was real, and George Soros controls Jewish Space Lasers? Or that there's bamboo dusted into the 40k Chinese-produced fake ballots which were smuggled into Maricopa County to steal the election ... and that they were shredded and fed to chickens to hide the evidence?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Woke

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Some more of the article, which of course the woke won't read, because they don't want to believe:
    When conservatives bully the AP into firing a reporter because she made pro-Palestinian posts in college is that cancel culture?

    I get it. Really I do. You’ve bought into the bull crap about “woke” and “cancel culture” because it’s easy comforting pablum.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Ah, won't you please, please let me stay to see you explain how...

    How's that US government-corporate partnership paid for covid vaccine working for you?

    People love to be right. Research indicates that we hate being wrong more so; but in a similar manner, we generally love to be right. But, being right is not, and shouldn’t be, the primary focus of ours, it should be rather in critical thinking; rather, we use critical thinking to decide what to believe and what to do. However, critically thinking for the purpose of being right can be a positive thing, particularly in for educating others. Critical reasoning on the other hand when confronted with contradictory information from multiple sources is a crucial ability in a knowledge-based society and digital world. Using information without critically reflecting on the content and its quality may lead to the acceptance of information based on unwarranted claims. Previous personal beliefs are assumed to play a decisive role when it comes to critically differentiating between assertions and claims and warranted knowledge and facts. Believing the worst of things and making assertions leaning on ones biases is not being woke, it is unworthy of good intellectual rigor but makes wonderful forum banter.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 05-26-2021 at 12:41 PM.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Woke

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I can't disagree on either the points raised about free speech or the lack of tolerance in the Bilge. I had a conversation with a very earnest young guy about what he called "hate speech". He claimed it should be outlawed & I asked him to define it in a way that would allow a court to convict someone. "Well we all know what it is". "OK - maybe we do, but you have to prove it to a judge or jury - how do you do that?". He was stumped, but not very happy with me for not just agreeing with him.
    We in the UK seem to manage OK
    In 2020-21, 86% of hate crimes cases we prosecuted led to a conviction or guilty plea. Because of the serious nature of these offences, the CPS can apply to the courts for a 'sentence uplift' which is an increased punishment for the crime. Last year, more than half of our requests led to offenders having their sentence increased because it was motivated by hate.
    https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Woke

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I have been noticing the increasing intolerance and absolutism of the far-left people in the Bilge with concern. Here in Brasil we are still undergoing the trauma of a far-right government. It pains me to think that when the other side takes power again they may swing the pendulum too far, setting the stage for a return of the RWW.
    Snowflakes in the Amazon.

    Due to Climate Change?
    Skip

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    ...........fighting against the deliberate polarization of politics...

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    Default Re: Woke

    It’s funny how George, like a bunch of the bilge libs in this thread, deny Rightwing whackos their own agency blaming “the woke” for the RWW insanity.

    Its not the wokes fault the Trumpalos are nuts dude, it’s the Trumpalos fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    We in the UK seem to manage OK
    https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

    In 2020-21, 86% of hate crimes cases we prosecuted led to a conviction or guilty plea. Because of the serious nature of these offences, the CPS can apply to the courts for a 'sentence uplift' which is an increased punishment for the crime. Last year, more than half of our requests led to offenders having their sentence increased because it was motivated by hate.
    Hate crimes are different from hate speech. Is "I hate people who eat peanut butter" hate speech? Is "I like people who eat puppies"?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Hate crimes are different from hate speech. Is "I hate people who eat peanut butter" hate speech? Is "I like people who eat puppies"?
    You know not every country views, and values, free speech the same right? Hate speech can be punishable by law in UK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    How's that US government-corporate partnership paid for covid vaccine working for you?
    I wouldn't know. We don't get any here. America first, even though you have a huge surplus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    It’s funny how George, like a bunch of the bilge libs in this thread, deny Rightwing whackos their own agency blaming “the woke” for the RWW insanity.
    Not at all. I blame them for helping the RWW get elected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    So anyone know what the word "woke" really means in these conversations?
    I am using it in the sense that the article in the OP uses it.

    As you can see, a couple of Bilge rats think it applies to them, and are lashing out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I wouldn't know. We don't get any here. America first, even though you have a huge surplus.
    Come on up and get your shots. Spare bedroom and even will take you sailing.

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