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Thread: School me on my boat!

  1. #71
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    I am not clear on whether or not this boat is plywood...

  2. #72
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    So far, we know almost nothing about the materials and construction methods used to build it - which makes supplying any sort of truly accurate and helpful information nearly impossible. It's a nice enough looking boat that I'm sure it was not cheap. I can't imagine spending that sort of money on it without first knowing a lot more about exactly what you are buying, what condition it's in, and what would be involved in its eventual care and feeding.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Dance View Post
    Cool! This guy next to my slip has something similar. I don't know how it works. His boat is bigger than mine. Does this lift fill with water somehow? I had a close up pic but somehow it got deleted. But you can tell the boat on the left is completely out of the water. This is something I wish I had but it looks expensive. LOL.
    Those ones don't fill or need emptying or anything. You just drive on and drive off. The first centre float is slightly lower to create a slight ramp and as you drive on the boats weight moves forward on the float until the boats fully on and the whole thing lifts back out of the water again. To get off you just lower the outboard and stick it in reverse and drive back off. They are a bit spendy but are worth something secondhand as alot of rib owners want one. No anodes either. If ya got the money its a good system. Marina owners like em as they can get more boats in. There might be a line of 'em in a marina somewhere.

    Also locally here in the UK especially at Lymington 'dry sailing' is now a thing...the marina staff get your boat (smaller sail sports boats off a trailer or ribs/ powerboats off an indoor rack) and put it in or out for you with a phone call. You pay an annual fee (less than a marina space costs) and its done. It's convenient for them and you. Marina space is just very limited and expensive here...You just leave it tied to the dock and Monday they put 'em back on the rack. Some sailboat racers do it to keep an ultra clean (fast) bottom! Your new boat's the perfect size and weight for doing it like that. It'll stay squeeky clean and not deteriorate with water/UV or chafe etc. Zero maintenance if your busy earning the money to pay for it. Yard will service the engine on site etc. No covers, no antifouling, no anodes, no refinishing, no damage and no chafe.

    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-11-2021 at 02:41 PM.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    WOW!

  5. #75
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Vermont has smaller versions of the store in a rack & launch as needed system. If a boat's small enough for it, it saves a lot of money over renting a slip.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  6. #76
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    So a boat shop called me back just now and says they should be able to just scuff up (not remove) the bottom paint up to the water line with 80 grit and put two coats of antifouling paint. I let him know of my concerns with the original paint flaking off but he insists that the antifouling paint will seal it off. It seems that detailing,restoring, and painting is all this shop does so I feel like they should know what they're doing. But the comments here about needing to sand it completely off is still making me worry. This guys says he's been doing this all his life, and his dad had the business before him (who he trained under).

    Decisions, decisions...

  7. #77
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Dance View Post
    So a boat shop called me back just now and says they should be able to just scuff up (not remove) the bottom paint up to the water line with 80 grit and put two coats of antifouling paint. I let him know of my concerns with the original paint flaking off but he insists that the antifouling paint will seal it off. It seems that detailing,restoring, and painting is all this shop does so I feel like they should know what they're doing. But the comments here about needing to sand it completely off is still making me worry. This guys says he's been doing this all his life, and his dad had the business before him (who he trained under).

    Decisions, decisions...
    Will they warranty the work? If so then I see no problem. If not, then why not? Personally I respect Todd's advice as coming from someone with vastly more experience than I have, but I would also be inclined to scuff and paint over it and just keep an eye on it, especially if the paint shop is confident that it won't be a problem.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  8. #78
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Which bottom paint are they planning to use? I still think that you are making a huge mistake by not bothering to find out the specific and absolutely most basic details, like what the boat is built from and what that material is sealed with (or not) before you start blindly guessing what it needs (which is precisely what you are doing).

    Why the resistance to do a bit of important research before jumping into the fire? It's what makes this entire thread rather troll-like. Most wooden boat owners take a pretty serious interest in how their boats are built and what they are made from. Somebody somewhere knows the answers to those questions for that boat, but it certainly is not you and you don't seem to be interested in finding these things out and establishing a plan that properly fits the boat. I've been on this forum for better than 20 years and can't recall a new boat owner that was so disinterested in knowing what made his boat work and how best to preserve it.

    By the way, the most water resistant coatings on earth are epoxy resin, followed by tar - and even they will pass a small amount of moisture in time. Paint, including bottom paint, is farther down the list a ways. As the copper leaches out of bottom paint over time, it also leaves tiny pores in it. Remember that the next time someone tells you that bottom paint will seal the hull from moisture.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    I don’t know Todd. My take is that the OP doesn’t have possession of the boat yet and is doing the best they can to determine what to do here. Doesn’t mean they aren’t interested in knowing more. Also, new wooden boat owner still figuring out what’s important. Not necessarily an easy thing if you don’t have a lifetime of experience.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  10. #80
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    I don’t know Todd. My take is that the OP doesn’t have possession of the boat yet and is doing the best they can to determine what to do here. Doesn’t mean they aren’t interested in knowing more. Also, new wooden boat owner still figuring out what’s important. Not necessarily an easy thing if you don’t have a lifetime of experience.
    This is exactly it. Troll-like? Trying to learn more about my boat is the point of this thread. I literally called it "School me on my boat". I cannot find any contact on the builder ANYWHERE so that's why I'm here.

    As you can imagine, there was high interest in this boat and if I spent weeks researching about the boat, it wouldn't be mine. I could tell the owner took very good care of the boat and the boat motor only had 10 hours on it. Not only that, he's a very honest retired gentle who took my family out for a ride on the weekend for free. Didn't even ask for gas money (I did pay him after kept refusing). Not having a wooden boat or even keeping a boat in water before, I didn't know there was this much involved in having a wooden boat at a slip. I thought I was doing the best I can by coming to the experts here and asking for advice before putting it in the water.

    The boat shop I spoke with today told me to be careful what I read online, even though it looks like expert advice. So I looked up the paint myself and I believe this is the data sheet:
    https://www.roddapaint.com/industria...purpose-enamel
    I don't see where it says it's not recommended for immersion. However, it doesn't specifically say it is used for immersion. The shop told me the antifouling paint would provide a seal over this paint and it would be fine. I didn't ask about a guarantee but I will tomorrow.
    Last edited by Moon Dance; 06-12-2021 at 12:05 AM. Reason: Provided better link

  11. #81
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    “Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet” is good advice. At the same time there is an enormous amount of wooden boat experience here and the forum members want to help anyone who is serious about learning. Anyway, the note about immersion use for that paint is in this document, for what it’s worth:

    https://www.roddapaint.com/docs/defa...e.pdf?sfvrsn=2

    Todd does have a good point though. Paint does not actually seal wood against water despite what the paint shop says. Anyone who has had a painted wooden door swell and stick in the frame on a damp day should know that. I do think the right thing to do is to strip it and start over. But failing that, I agree that you should determine if the boat is plywood and if it is take some care to seal the edges.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  12. #82
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Thanks Chris. I’ve read that document and the one I linked and can’t find anything about immersion for my specific paint. I do see that note about immersion note on several other paints, but not mine. I see mine on page 16 of your link (or just the link I posted) and don’t see the note about immersion.

    I think you are right though and the safe thing to do is just sand it off. I think the peace of mind is worth it. It’s too bad it has 3 coats of newer paint on it but without knowing for sure, I don’t want to risk anything.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    You said you wanted to be "schooled on your boat". I'm not trying to give you a hard time, and I will freely admit to being a hard core perfectionist when it comes to working on boats, working with resins, and the construction and use of sails, but I'm trying to help prevent you from making an expensive mistake - and/or screwing up a perfectly good boat while making the conversion from trailer-sailer to slip-stored.

    Find out whether the owner knows if the boat is planked with lumber (and what kind) or plywood. Find out if it has been coated outside with any sort of sealer or resin, or just with primer and paint. Either one could be fine, but you want to know which in order to proceed properly. How are the planks held together? Glued laps? Nails? Screws? Rivets? Does it have lots of ribs inside that the planks are attached to, or maybe just a few bulkheads.

    It is nearly impossible to proceed intelligently and in a matter that is safe and good for the boat on a conversion from trailer-sailer to continual immersion without knowing the answers to this sort of basic construction questions. If that means that you have to get out your pocket knife and scrape some paint off of one of the laps to see if it has plys or wood grain, and whether it seems to have some sort of hard resin base coat, it is worth doing. If it means getting somebody who knows the basics of wooden boatbuilding to look at it and answer some questions for you, that would also be worth doing. A lot of the folks on this forum, including many who aren't in the boat business, could do an awful lot of enlightening about the boat's basic construction in just a few minutes of looking at it.

    As far as the paint goes, it is a traditional, solvent-based exterior alkyd enamel. With high gloss and a hard, durable surface it is excellent paint - especially if you want to paint a piece of equipment like a tractor or a trailer-sailed boat. The vast majority of them are not meant to be left underwater for extended periods though, and the typical eventual result is often paint peeling off in big curling flakes. You can stick them in the water and hope for the best, and some will do better than others, but the eventual outcome is always a crap shoot. As far as the actual sealing ability of bottom paint, we have already been over that one. I couldn't care less if your paint peels. The real concern is the potential for the plywood to soak up water and begin to deteriorate/delaminate from water absorption. That's structural, not cosmetic and that's very serious.

    You don't want to believe everything you read on the internet, but there are also a lot of good old boys out there in business who haven't done their homework and kept up with technology. The fact that they have been doing it a long time doesn't always mean that they have been doing it right.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    You said you wanted to be "schooled on your boat". I'm not trying to give you a hard time, and I will freely admit to being a hard core perfectionist when it comes to working on boats, working with resins, and the construction and use of sails, but I'm trying to help prevent you from making an expensive mistake - and/or screwing up a perfectly good boat while making the conversion from trailer-sailer to slip-stored.

    Find out whether the owner knows if the boat is planked with lumber (and what kind) or plywood. Find out if it has been coated outside with any sort of sealer or resin, or just with primer and paint. Either one could be fine, but you want to know which in order to proceed properly. How are the planks held together? Glued laps? Nails? Screws? Rivets? Does it have lots of ribs inside that the planks are attached to, or maybe just a few bulkheads.

    It is nearly impossible to proceed intelligently and in a matter that is safe and good for the boat on a conversion from trailer-sailer to continual immersion without knowing the answers to this sort of basic construction questions. If that means that you have to get out your pocket knife and scrape some paint off of one of the laps to see if it has plys or wood grain, and whether it seems to have some sort of hard resin base coat, it is worth doing. If it means getting somebody who knows the basics of wooden boatbuilding to look at it and answer some questions for you, that would also be worth doing. A lot of the folks on this forum, including many who aren't in the boat business, could do an awful lot of enlightening about the boat's basic construction in just a few minutes of looking at it.

    As far as the paint goes, it is a traditional, solvent-based exterior alkyd enamel. With high gloss and a hard, durable surface it is excellent paint - especially if you want to paint a piece of equipment like a tractor or a trailer-sailed boat. The vast majority of them are not meant to be left underwater for extended periods though, and the typical eventual result is often paint peeling off in big curling flakes. You can stick them in the water and hope for the best, and some will do better than others, but the eventual outcome is always a crap shoot. As far as the actual sealing ability of bottom paint, we have already been over that one. I couldn't care less if your paint peels. The real concern is the potential for the plywood to soak up water and begin to deteriorate/delaminate from water absorption. That's structural, not cosmetic and that's very serious.

    You don't want to believe everything you read on the internet, but there are also a lot of good old boys out there in business who haven't done their homework and kept up with technology. The fact that they have been doing it a long time doesn't always mean that they have been doing it right.
    Thank you. I think all of that makes perfect sense. I didn’t consider taking some of the paint off. Mainly because I don’t technically own the boat yet (50% deposit). Also, because it’s a pretty boat. LOL. But I do want to know and if I don’t have any other options that may be the only way to find out. I still am hoping I get return calls and replies to my emails I’ve sent to track down the builder.

    Maybe I should have it towed to a boat yard and see if I can hire an expert to come take a look. I’ve asked the boat yard in Astoria for a couple phone numbers but I haven’t heard back from them yet.

    I’m starting to wonder if I made the right choice in going with a wooden boat. But I think this little issue will be long forgotten soon enough and I can enjoy the boat. One advantage I noticed right away is how much more quiet wooden boats are. Of course they are more beautiful as well so I’ll try to remember the “pros” of my decision.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Well, that is an awfully good looking boat, and one that a lot of us on the forum would certainly not mind owning. The transition from trailered boat to slip-stored boat can be a pretty big deal though, and it is worth doing it right and protecting the boat in the process - and that all starts with knowing what you have and what to do about it. Once that gets figured out, everything having to do with its care and feeding becomes much more predictable and logical. It certainly is not one of those scenarios where you look at a boat and think "this thing is going to be a maintenance nightmare."

  16. #86
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    I just use one $100 a gallon can of Jamestown Distributors “underdog” bottom paint, slop it on and toss her in the water.
    Bottom paint isn’t something that I overthink.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  17. #87
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Moon Dance, just on the immersion service question. Page 3 of the document I posted shows Alkyd Enamel 758101, which is what you have, as "not recommended for immersion service". (The bottom paint can is p/n 758104 not 758101 but I believe that's just the difference between the white base and the neutral base. It's the same paint.)
    - Chris

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  18. #88
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    If possible, put the boat into the water as it is this year. Every two weeks pull it out and wash off any growth. Then put it back into the water. If the paint holds, you're gold. If it doesn't then it wouldn't with bottom paint on it. Either way, you'll know what to do in the future.

    Jeff

  19. #89
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Alright, so now I'm looking at the floating lifts. LOL

    They are about $5k-7k. A lot up front but I think it will save money over the long run on bottom paint. And maybe most importantly, peace of mind.

    Big question though. I've read a bunch of threads here about the best way to store a wooden boat and it seems the general consensus is that it's best to store it on water. Is that the case for marine ply as well? Not knowing how the boat was built, it seems like the safest bet for me is to trailer it or get a floating lift. Or sanding completely off and doing and epoxy finish + antifouling paint. But if keeping the boat on a floating lift will allow me to easily inspect the bottom paint I'd rather put the money towards the lift and save on anti-fouling paint in the future.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Dance View Post
    Alright, so now I'm looking at the floating lifts. LOL

    They are about $5k-7k. A lot up front but I think it will save money over the long run on bottom paint. And maybe most importantly, peace of mind.

    Big question though. I've read a bunch of threads here about the best way to store a wooden boat and it seems the general consensus is that it's best to store it on water. Is that the case for marine ply as well? Not knowing how the boat was built, it seems like the safest bet for me is to trailer it or get a floating lift. Or sanding completely off and doing and epoxy finish + antifouling paint. But if keeping the boat on a floating lift will allow me to easily inspect the bottom paint I'd rather put the money towards the lift and save on anti-fouling paint in the future.
    All good questions. It's true that traditionally-constructed wooden boats are better off stored in the water, with various caveats and exceptions to that statement. But regardless of how Moon Dance was built she has been stored on a trailer for a while now, apparently with no problems. I don't think storing her on a float is going to be any different than that.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  21. #91
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Well, just an update if anyone cares. LOL

    I ordered a Jet Dock last week and it should be arriving in a couple weeks. Paid off the boat and took some close up shots. I was hoping you guys might be able to teach me more about the boat based on these pics.
    IMG_0589.jpg

    IMG_0588.jpg

    IMG_0586.jpg

    IMG_0585.jpg

    IMG_0584.jpg

  22. #92
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Some more pics
    Attached Images Attached Images

  23. #93
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Great boat. Wish I owned her. Plywood lap. Looks like a professional build to me - the details are really nicely done. Not sure what else there is to know. I think you have a keeper. Treat her right and she will last forever.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  24. #94
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Great boat. Wish I owned her. Plywood lap. Looks like a professional build to me - the details are really nicely done. Not sure what else there is to know. I think you have a keeper. Treat her right and she will last forever.
    I agree. One thing I do notice is the varnished stem leading down to what looks like a varnished keel? If so & particularly if running the boat up on a Jet Dock, the varnish will get rubbed off lickety-split. Maybe a 3/4" or 1" wide bronze strip run down the center of the stem & the keel to protect it? Like this:



    It will bend to fit the curve. Drill holes every foot (possibly closer where the curve is sharp), countersink, then use flat or oval head screws to attach it. Make sure to use bedding compound under it.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  25. #95
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Beauty of a boat! You done good You can see the lams of the plywood in the transom shot. The rest of the materials all look top-notch, too. Keep the fresh water out of her and keep the finishes up and she'll outlast you and another generation as well

  26. #96
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    Default School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    No - I realize many don't, but there are other option, a tripod & hoist for example.


    Yes, exactly.


    You could simply jack it up where needed to get at the bare spots. You only need a couple inches of clearance to jam a brush in on the spots inaccessible because of the supports or blocking. Slap some on, let dry, let down, Jack up the other end.


    By the way: GREAT BOAT!!

    Kevin


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  27. #97
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Thanks for the replies!

    Do you guys have any guesses on whether epoxy was used or if it’s marine grade ply? As mentioned before, I have a woodworking shop but would never have guessed plywood was used for building boats. So learning about this here freaked me out quite a bit if you couldn’t tell by my posts. LOL.

    Judging by the last replies “lap ply” seems to be a great thing and is considered professional grade. Would this be considered the next best thing to a boat built with solid wood?

    Garrett thanks for that suggestion. Jet Dock is including a part ($300) that sits in the middle that is supposed to prevent the finish from rubbing off. Does anyone here have experience with this?

    Thanks again!
    Last edited by Moon Dance; 06-27-2021 at 02:47 PM.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Interesting. It’s got bevelled lands (where the planks ovetlap and meet the transom) rather than a rebated land. See the angle is oblique, like with a scarf.. He’s bevelled both planks faying surfaces so they merge to a single plank thickness nicely. I think because he’s planked a round transom, not a series if flats, he’s had to clamp those planks pretty hard to get them to cup to the transom shape and a conventional land rebate on one plank only would potentially leave it a bit weaker accross the plank when clamped hard and might split. That bevel would be a bit stronger. Closer to a dory lap.

    The plank end below at the turn of the bilge has been kerfed to get it to conform to the roundness of the transom then I guess filled/ glued back together. Its a glue lap boat but he’s tried to and succeeded in keeping the round transom look you get with carvel, how the boat was originally drawn and its given rise to the question of how’s it built.

    It’ll be marine plywood, though that doesn’t really mean much. Given the quality of the build, it’s likely that the plywood would have been as good as can be obtained. It looks dark which usually means a hardwood species.

    Everything nicely rounded over and plugged fixings...signs of a pro builder or an equally competent ‘amateur’.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-27-2021 at 03:25 AM.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Dance View Post
    Thanks for the replies!

    Do you guys have any guesses on whether epoxy was used or if it’s marine grade ply? As mentioned before, I have a woodworking shop but would never have guessed plywood was used for building boats. So learning about this hear freaked me out quite a bit if you couldn’t tell by my posts. LOL.

    Judging by the last replies “lap ply” seems to be a great thing and is considered professional grade. Would this be considered the next best thing to a boat built with solid wood?

    Garrett thanks for that suggestion. Jet Dock is including a part ($300) that sits in the middle that is supposed to prevent the finish from rubbing off. Does anyone here have experience with this?

    Thanks again!
    Even rollers will wear the finish over time - though less than just sliding it up on something. This would be true for a fiberglass boat too - though gel coat is harder than varnish so it'd take longer.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  30. #100
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    I agree. A very nicely built and finished boat. Looks like top notch construction. She has also not spent extended periods of time in the water, so I think your plan for keeping her dry is excellent.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Thanks for all the replies everyone! Been busy with work and haven't had much time to focus on the boat. I'm getting the Jet Dock delivered on Monday finally. Jet Dock wasn't able to ship it when they said they would.

    I've been trying to get an insurance policy for the boat but it seems like the wooden hull is frowned upon. Previous owner had Geico but they stopped insurance wooden boats 1-2 years ago (what the agent told me). I had a flyer in the mail from Boat USA but they also stopped insuring boats with wooden hulls. Who are you guys using for insurance?

  32. #102
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Hagerty, Markel and Grundy will all insure a wooden boat with a survey (full coverage). State Farm will issue a liability-only, no survey policy for that boat which will satisfy the marina until you can get a survey if you don't already have one.
    - Chris

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  33. #103
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Thanks Chris. I’ve filled out their online form, waiting on a call back. Safeco doesn’t do wooden boats either. Checked with my local Farmers rep and the company they use doesn’t either (forgot the name).

  34. #104
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    5,194

    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    I had wooden boat insured for liability only with State Farm up until a year ago. Haven't heard that they have stopped. I'd definitely try there first. Maybe call and talk to an agent directly. Good luck! The insurance hunt is a pain but the great majority of wooden boats are insured so it's not impossible despite what you may hear.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    32,199

    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    My (wooden) boat is insured with State Farm for liability and loss. An accredited survey with value was required

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