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Thread: School me on my boat!

  1. #1
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    Default School me on my boat!

    Hello,

    I joined the forum last week, but registered under the "wrong" username. Got the boat name wrong. Hopefully I'm posting this thread in the right forum.

    I'm hoping the members here can tell me as much about this boat as possible. Most importantly, I'm wondering if this boat is okay to be stored in water. I've read a bunch of threads here and have seen the debates about ply versus solid wood. Marine ply vs exterior ply. And storing in water vs out.

    I don't know how this boat was built. I don't know if it's ply or not. I've asked the owner and he doesn't think the hull is ply but can't guarantee it since he didn't buy it new. The bronze placard lists the builder as "P. Cozzi" but I can't find any info on him through my Google searches.

    Since this is a very large purchase for me (50% deposit down), I'd like to do as much research as possible and make sure I'm taking care of the boat properly. I don't have a vehicle that can tow it now, so the seller is very generously towing it to my slip for me before the end of the month.

    So my questions are:

    1. Can you tell by the pics if this is a plywood hull?
    2. If it is plywood, how can you tell if it is marine grade?
    3. Would you store this boat at a slip (Warrenton, OR)?
    4. This is my first wooden boat, can you give me any/all information about this style of boat?
    5. Is P. Cozzi a member here by any chance, or does anyone know him/her?

    Thanks!

    moon dance 7.jpg
    moon dance 11.jpg
    moon dance 13.jpg
    moon dance 15.jpg
    moon dance 12.jpg

  2. #2
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Welcome to the WBF. She looks like a nice day-tripper/weekend cruiser, I'm curious about who her designer might be. Somebody around here probably knows, just be patient.

    Hard to say what it might be made of, though it has a glued-lap plywood look about it to me. Assuming she's well built there shouldn't be any issues keeping her afloat. I don't see any evidence of bottom paint in the pictures, you'll want that.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  3. #3
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Firstly thats a lovely boat. And a lovely trailer. Your boatwas clearly built by someone who new what he was doing upto a quality regardless. You are clearly a man of taste.

    It would be good to see a picture of the bilge region under the floor boards
    It would also be good to see a close up picture of the end of the plank where it meets the transom. Is the end exposed...if so can you see plies?
    Where the boat bilge turn at the transom, where it bulges out is the plank right on that bend curved when you put a straight edge accross it or flat?

    The lack of transverse framing and a powerboat, laminated outer stem?...current condition and a trailer boat...my hunch is glued lapstrake plywood at first sight of those 3 pics.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-07-2021 at 11:13 AM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Firstly thats a lovely boat. And a lovely trailer. Your boatwas clearly built by someone who new what he was doing upto a quality regardless. You are clearly a man of taste.

    It would be good to see a picture of the bilge region under the floor boards
    It would also be good to see a close up picture of the end of the plank where it meets the transom. Is the end exposed...if so can you see plies?
    Where the boat bilge turn at the transom, where it bulges out is the plank right on that bend curved when you put a straight edge accross it or flat?

    The lack of transverse framing and a powerboat, laminated outer stem?...my hunch is glued lapstrake plywood at first sight of those 3 pics.
    I was just responding with essentially the same thoughts. Lovely boat. I don't recognize the design at all. It has a bit of a Weston Farmer look though. It could easily be a stock design from the 50s. How long is she? Someone here might recognize the design but some details on her dimensions would help.

    Personally I would have no concerns about storing that boat in the water but two comments. First, you should either confirm with the current owner that the bottom is painted with antifouling paint or get a coat of antifouling paint on the bottom before putting her in the water. And second, assuming you are putting her in an uncovered slip, have a cover made if there is not one for the boat already. A few months out in the open will do a lot of damage to that finish. A covered slip, if one is available in your area, is well worth the cost. It will save thousands of dollars in maintenance.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Beauty of a boat. Congratulations! Like the others, I'd guess glued lap ply construction. The advice for bottom paint and keeping fresh water out is spot on, especially as Warrenton/Astoria certainly get their fair share of rain. I'm assuming you've already found Englund Marine down there, but if not check them out (no affiliation) as they'll be an invaluable resource.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Thanks for the replies guys!

    The boat is 18 ft long and the designer's name is also on the placard, J. Gardner. It was built in Washington state but that's all I know.

    Is glued lap ply considered a good building material? The rest of the boat is gorgeous wood so it makes me want to believe that the designer/builder didn't "cheap out" on the hull but what do I know.

    The boat slip is not covered and I've called around to all the custom canvas guys in Portland and Warrenton/Astoria. Lead time is several months. Ugh...The only off the shelf covers I can find online strap onto a trailer. Anyone here do custom covers? I would want a cover that that buttons up, unless someone here has a better idea.

    The seller is going to provide info on the bottom paint. All I know right now is that he purchased it at Rhodda Paint and a "marine workshop" recommended the paint. I will ask if he knows it is is anti-fouling.

    I appreciate all the info!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Very pretty! I would agree with the consensus that first impressions tend to plywood planked. A picture of up in the forepeak should also be rather telling it it is glued ply. Should be no issues keeping her in the water.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    John Gardner is a well known and well-regarded designer. You boat looks a lot like his Down East Workboat.

    https://smallboatsmonthly.com/articl...east-workboat/

    Glued lap is fine. Great, in fact. Solid wood lapstrake is great as well. Personally I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about the materials. It looks like a quality build from a well known designer and it has stayed together this long. It's not going to melt if you keep it in the water.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Oh, and I forgot to say. That's a really, really nice boat. Anyone here would be proud to own her and I'm sure more than a few of us are envious of your good fortune in buying her. I know I am! Maintain her well, use her often, and ask questions here anytime. We would all love to help you keep her up.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  10. #10
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Cool! Thanks for the link and compliment! Learning more about her is just as fun as buying her!

  11. #11
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    John Gardner worked up the lines from traditional examples in 1981, of the 18ft Maine workboat, and presents them in his book "Building Classic Small Craft". 9 pages.

    His lines are 18ft LOA x 6'4" beam. He says they were typical of a Washington County Down East Workboat.

    The tumblehome in the aft sections to the transom...actually it's to give foot room under the gunwale for hauling up a lobster trap...less back bending...indicates a Maine connection. He describes classic carvel and clinker construction.



    It looks like a pro builder lofted the lines and built a very nice example. She has pedigree, she's well built and she's in fine condition.

    The worst that could have happened would be rain water left in the bilge unattended...so lift up the floor boards and check the wood is strong in the cross frames (floors) across the bilge. Also check the wood in the topmost piece of keel that your looking at along the centreline - the keelson - check that is in good condition and not rotted etc and carefully check the first plank up - the garboard - if the keelson and garboards are rotten on a glue lap boat (if its glued) it's game over and walk away. Given her general condition I'd be surprised if anythings amiss.

    The next place to check is the transom where it attaches to the planks. They will also be some knees holding the transom to the hull bottom and sides. Make sure this is all looking solid and crack free. She only has a modest power plant and an expensive boat will likely have been used carefully but make sure the hull/ knees and transom area isn't showing stress cracks from over indulgent use under power or just from the weight hanging off the transom due to the engine. The engine brace will have helped with that. There are two boards making up the transom. It's likely he glued a plywood strip into a groove on each edge surface to reinforce the joint. Just take a look and make sure things are all together.

    Get under the boat on the trailer and look along the bottom planking for any damage or cracks. She has alot of longitudinal stringers reinforcing the laps so she should be very strong.

    Plywood makes for an easier boat to live with as a trailer boat. It's also stiffer for it's weight so generally better suits planing ambitions.

    When you get a powerboat...make sure the fuel tank is squeaky clean: no debris or water sloshing around in there. Remove empty, clean it out and replace. Service engine at local Honda dealer. New fuel filters etc. Replace the battery (get a deluxe big one maybe AGM as you'll be bouncing around on full chat - properly strapped down). Usually a boat is sold after not being used much and the battery will have been flattened a few times and be on its last legs. Make sure the fuel filler can't allow rain water to get in the tank. Go round all the fuel hoses making sure they are the correct hoses and that the stainless jubilee clips are all correctly torqued (doubled ideally if there is room). Keep the boat full of fuel to stop water condensing out of the air on the sides of the fuel tank and mixing with fuel (air gets in through the vent). Get the local sail maker to make you a boat cover to keep it clean, UV off and rain water out - ask for two vents: fore air in and aft out - if he can - and it'll be bone dry when you take it off.

    In use make sure you know what the water cooling jet looks like coming out of the engine (you might have a gauge) and keep the safety cut out lanyard around your wrist. Watch the windage on that Bimini close in manouvering. Concentrate on having clean fuel and keep the engine in perfect order - your life depends on it. An auxiliary small motor on a bracket for emergency use is good practice.

    On the antifouling side...it's either a hard high speed boat antifouling (once or twice a year) or coating the bottom with "copper coat" that lasts 10+ years (usually but always depends on local conditions). There's a few similar things to copper coat.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 06-07-2021 at 01:07 PM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    You might reach out the the Northwest School of Wooden Boat Building. Since they built the one in the SBM article, which was named Moon Lady, I would not be at all surprised if they had some connection to your boat. "P. Cozzi" might have been a student there, for example. And nothing wrong with that if so. Some very skilled boatbuilders have come out of that school.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Awesome, thanks guys!

  14. #14
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Lovely boat. Do not skimp or cut any corners on a moorage cover. Even if the price causes you indigestion the costs associated with a less than first class cover are orders of magnitude worse. I recently sold a boat with a custom fit Sunbrella moorage cover that had seen 10 years of use. There are a couple small spots that are going to need reinforcement sooner than later, that's it. I choked on the price at the time but it paid for itself many times over especially at sale.

    Propane is heavier than air and will collect in the bilge undetected. I don't want to read about you and your guests receiving 3rd degree burns over 75% of your bodies. Please look at approved ways to store it.
    Thanks.
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Autonomous View Post
    Lovely boat. Do not skimp or cut any corners on a moorage cover. Even if the price causes you indigestion the costs associated with a less than first class cover are orders of magnitude worse. I recently sold a boat with a custom fit Sunbrella moorage cover that had seen 10 years of use. There are a couple small spots that are going to need reinforcement sooner than later, that's it. I choked on the price at the time but it paid for itself many times over especially at sale.

    Propane is heavier than air and will collect in the bilge undetected. I don't want to read about you and your guests receiving 3rd degree burns over 75% of your bodies. Please look at approved ways to store it.
    Thanks.

    Good catch on that propane tank! Yes, that installation absolutely needs to go. It's a real hazard. The tank needs to be in a sealed box with a vent at the bottom that leads directly overboard. More specific details on the proper installation can be found here:

    https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/....A-01.1993.pdf

    Section 1.12 lists specifications for installation and storage. Or even better, just take it out entirely.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  16. #16
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    The propane tank is kind of a temporary installation. He said he's never even used it before and the one time I was out on the boat with him, he left it in his garage. But thank you for the insight. I'll check out the link when/if I decide to use it.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    You might check with Clint (? if I recall correctly) at Four Winds Canvas if you haven't already. Nice folks and you can have a beer at Rogue while you're there

  18. #18
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    You might check with Clint (? if I recall correctly) at Four Winds Canvas if you haven't already. Nice folks and you can have a beer at Rogue while you're there
    Thanks, yes I did check with them. They told me they no longer take on these types of projects. They recommended Superior Boat Tops in Longview. Still waiting to hear back from a couple shops so I'm keeping my fingers crossed

  19. #19
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    In regards to a cover... It is not at all difficult to make one at home. I have made one for my boat using a regular home sewing machine. And I don't know how to sew all that well. My seams are crooked, the fit is a little dodgy, and it looks cobbled together. But it works well by keeping the sun and rain off. I used Sunbrella fabric bought from SailRite. Others here have done as I did... mostly better looking than mine.

    There's nothing "wrong or cheap" about marine plywood. Enjoy your boat!

    Jeff

  20. #20
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    I found out the existing bottom paint is not anti-fouling. Is there a clear coat antifouling that can be applied? Or would I be repainting the blue with a different antifouling blue paint?

  21. #21
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    In regards to a cover... It is not at all difficult to make one at home. I have made one for my boat using a regular home sewing machine. And I don't know how to sew all that well. My seams are crooked, the fit is a little dodgy, and it looks cobbled together. But it works well by keeping the sun and rain off. I used Sunbrella fabric bought from SailRite. Others here have done as I did... mostly better looking than mine.

    There's nothing "wrong or cheap" about marine plywood. Enjoy your boat!

    Jeff
    Thanks for the reply! I don't have a sewing machine and have never hand sewn anything. Maybe a button. LOL

    How do you know if it is marine plywood?

  22. #22
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    John Gardner worked up the lines from traditional examples in 1981, of the 18ft Maine workboat, and presents them in his book "Building Classic Small Craft". 9 pages.

    His lines are 18ft LOA x 6'4" beam. He says they were typical of a Washington County Down East Workboat.

    The tumblehome in the aft sections to the transom...actually it's to give foot room under the gunwale for hauling up a lobster trap...less back bending...indicates a Maine connection. He describes classic carvel and clinker construction.



    It looks like a pro builder lofted the lines and built a very nice example. She has pedigree, she's well built and she's in fine condition.

    The worst that could have happened would be rain water left in the bilge unattended...so lift up the floor boards and check the wood is strong in the cross frames (floors) across the bilge. Also check the wood in the topmost piece of keel that your looking at along the centreline - the keelson - check that is in good condition and not rotted etc and carefully check the first plank up - the garboard - if the keelson and garboards are rotten on a glue lap boat (if its glued) it's game over and walk away. Given her general condition I'd be surprised if anythings amiss.

    The next place to check is the transom where it attaches to the planks. They will also be some knees holding the transom to the hull bottom and sides. Make sure this is all looking solid and crack free. She only has a modest power plant and an expensive boat will likely have been used carefully but make sure the hull/ knees and transom area isn't showing stress cracks from over indulgent use under power or just from the weight hanging off the transom due to the engine. The engine brace will have helped with that. There are two boards making up the transom. It's likely he glued a plywood strip into a groove on each edge surface to reinforce the joint. Just take a look and make sure things are all together.

    Get under the boat on the trailer and look along the bottom planking for any damage or cracks. She has alot of longitudinal stringers reinforcing the laps so she should be very strong.

    Plywood makes for an easier boat to live with as a trailer boat. It's also stiffer for it's weight so generally better suits planing ambitions.

    When you get a powerboat...make sure the fuel tank is squeaky clean: no debris or water sloshing around in there. Remove empty, clean it out and replace. Service engine at local Honda dealer. New fuel filters etc. Replace the battery (get a deluxe big one maybe AGM as you'll be bouncing around on full chat - properly strapped down). Usually a boat is sold after not being used much and the battery will have been flattened a few times and be on its last legs. Make sure the fuel filler can't allow rain water to get in the tank. Go round all the fuel hoses making sure they are the correct hoses and that the stainless jubilee clips are all correctly torqued (doubled ideally if there is room). Keep the boat full of fuel to stop water condensing out of the air on the sides of the fuel tank and mixing with fuel (air gets in through the vent). Get the local sail maker to make you a boat cover to keep it clean, UV off and rain water out - ask for two vents: fore air in and aft out - if he can - and it'll be bone dry when you take it off.

    In use make sure you know what the water cooling jet looks like coming out of the engine (you might have a gauge) and keep the safety cut out lanyard around your wrist. Watch the windage on that Bimini close in manouvering. Concentrate on having clean fuel and keep the engine in perfect order - your life depends on it. An auxiliary small motor on a bracket for emergency use is good practice.

    On the antifouling side...it's either a hard high speed boat antifouling (once or twice a year) or coating the bottom with "copper coat" that lasts 10+ years (usually but always depends on local conditions). There's a few similar things to copper coat.
    I wanted to come back to this. Thank you for all the detailed info. I'm going to pull this post up the next time I get to see the boat.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    In regards to antifouling, check to see what's currently acceptable in the lower Columbia. We can still use ablative copper here in the mid-river (St. Helens) but I'm wondering for how long. I'm strictly a sailor and use a burnishable bottom paint formulated for freshwater so my experience won't help. See what guys down there are using.

    Good to know that Four Winds isn't doing the canvas any longer. I've no other local leads for you.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Dance View Post
    I found out the existing bottom paint is not anti-fouling. Is there a clear coat antifouling that can be applied? Or would I be repainting the blue with a different antifouling blue paint?
    Nope - no clear. Check with folks local to you as different bottom paints work better in some locations than others. Most commonly you'll find (dark) red, blue, & green.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  25. #25
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Thanks guys. Really appreciate the replies.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Well, I've been on the phone all day and can't get anyone to paint anytime before September.

    Do you guys know if antifouling paint can be painted over this? The shops I contacted told me they'd have to get back to me after doing some research on the existing paint. I was quoted about $750-900 for the paint and another $750-900 to sand (if needed). Another guy quoted me $360 to go over it with epoxy first so the antifouling would have something to bond to, but said he'd have to research first if the existing paint would bond to the antifouling paint.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  27. #27
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    No way I'd epoxy over paint!

    If the paint is oil based, then anti-fouling can go right over it. I gallon would do your boat I'd think - so $200-300 for paint. Use a roller & you could do it in an afternoon easily.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  28. #28
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    I'm not familiar with that paint but a quick Google search indicates that it's an oil-based alkyd enamel. Pretty standard stuff. You should have no problem finding a suitable bottom paint that will go over it. You definitely do NOT need any sort of epoxy undercoat unless you are using a bottom paint that specifically requires it (and if that's what's being recommended I'd want a second opinion). $1500-$2,000 to sand and paint the bottom of an 18' boat is probably the going yard rate but you should be able to have it done for less than that if you can find an independent painter to do the work. The best way to do that is to ask other wooden boat owners or look on the notice boards at local marinas. Usually you will find a few business cards from painters tacked up there. An experienced painter will also be able to steer you to a friendly boatyard where the work can be done. At least that's the case up here in Seattle but we are spoiled. I don't know what the situation is like down there. Hugh and others from OR might have better advice there.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  29. #29
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    ^^ Also what Garret said. You can do it yourself easily enough. It's not at all difficult, although crouching under the boat for an afternoon is not anyone's idea of fun.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  30. #30
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Thanks! That's great they can paint right over it. One shop quoted me $750 and another quoted me $900 if all they have to do is paint right over it. The sanding was if they had to remove the existing paint. Probably a silly question but I'm guessing you need your own lift at home to paint it yourself?

    Also, for those of you who are familiar with the area, would you be worried at all about taking this boat out in the lower Columbia? I've only had boats out on the Willamette, Columbia near Portland, and Tillamook Bay. I was eating at Mo's in Astoria last weekend and watching the fishing boats out there. Pretty rough water! All of the boats I saw were bigger than mine and I started to think about whether my family would get sea sick if we were anchored and fishing all day. LOL

  31. #31
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    I can’t answer the Lower Columbia question, but what I would do for painting is have the boat trailered to a boat yard that allows DIY work (if there is one near you). The yard will be able to lift the boat off the trailer and block it up so you can work on it. But not every yard allows DIY work and not all yards will allow wooden boats so you may need to do some research to find one. Locals with wooden boats are your best resource there as well.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  32. #32
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    That transom does not look like plywood from here...

  33. #33
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    I had a 19' Chris Craft with a 283 in it. I can't believe you boat weighs more. I painted what I could on the trailer, then put a strap under the stern (3" wide ratchet strap) & lifted it with the bucket on my tractor. Painted the bare spots, then did the same on the bow. Bottom paint dries quickly - an hour or two should do.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  34. #34
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    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Depending on the antifouling paint used, they may want you to do enough sanding to just knock the gloss down on the existing enamel. Just read the labels carefully with whatever paint you're thinking of using. Some contain strong solvents that will attack enamel. Others, like some of the water-based versions, are no more difficult to handle than the latex you might paint a wall in your house with. Given the option, I usually go for water-based ablatives like Hydrocoat. They will withstand long periods out of the water if needed without going dead and they slowly remove themselves as they age - so that you don't ever end up out there under a boat grinding off old dead bottom paint (which is one of the absolute worst and most unpleasant jobs in all of boatwork). And do check around to see what brands/types your neighbors fine effective in your area.

    p.s. if anybody starts talking about epoxy coating your boat over paint, walk away quickly. They don't know what they're talking about. Epoxy resin is great stuff, but one of the most important things to know about using it is knowing when not to use it.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Location
    Portland, OR USA
    Posts
    35

    Default Re: School me on my boat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    That transom does not look like plywood from here...
    Yes, this was unpainted and was easier to tell that it was solid wood.
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