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Thread: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

  1. #1
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    Default Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I was sure that I didn't want/need a motor well when I built my decked version of the Caledonia Yawl. I now see how handy it would be to have a small outboard to get in and out of tight harbors and channels. I can envision how I might retrofit a motor well, but the surgery seems too invasive.

    Has anyone come up with a way of mounting a small outboard on a CY or other double-ender without breaching the hull?

    Bill

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    It is not impractical to build a well with a box inside it after the boat is built. Better perhaps, when you cut the planking it is already the bottom of the box! A perfectly faired plug.
    A box in a box sort of!

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Canoe type mount on the side. Removable.

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by oldsub86 View Post
    Canoe type mount on the side. Removable.
    Difficult (impossible) to motor sail, and liable to be "dunked" by a large wake.

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Difficult (impossible) to motor sail, and liable to be "dunked" by a large wake.
    Not many other choices on a double ender if you don't want to cut a hole in the bottom and install a well.

    Beef up the rudder and mount a small motor on the back - again removable?

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    The surgery is not invasive or all that difficult, if you understand and embrace epoxy and how easy epoxy make modifrications to a boat.

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Small inboard motor with straight shaft?
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    check out Gib's photos in this thread:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...r-DOUBLE-ENDER

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl


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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I have a motor well in my Caledonia Yawl, and it has both advantages and disadvantages.

    GOOD:
    1. Motor is near the centerline and not fully aft, so in heavy swell the prop stays in the water nearly as well as an inboard prop would.
    2. Motor is out of the way (mostly) and can't snag sheets and lines.
    3. Motor isn't very visible and the lines of the boat aren't changed with fixed or removable mounts.

    BAD:
    A. Prop and skeg on my short shaft outboard are easily the lowest point on the boat with CB and rudder kicked up, and will hit bottom / obstacles when beaching / launching -- so IT MUST BE REMOVED FROM WELL to beach boat.
    B. Removing it from the well involves loosening the two clamps, lifting it up completely out of the well, and setting it down correctly - not a job for anyone without decent upper body strength. And this takes time, which you may not have if beaching downwind.
    C. 4-stroke outboards MUST be stored horizontally in one of two positions, usually controls-down. If you just lay it down in any orientation as you would a 2-stroke, you'll be in for a $500+ repair job from oil in the cylinders.
    D. If your CY has an aft deck that means you've covered the best place to lay it down out of the way. Mine is open and has cleats to hold the front and skeg, so the motor is nicely out of the way. But if yours is decked the OB must be laid down in the cockpit right where you'll trip over it and/or may snag mainsheets. This impacts sailing in ways you may not realize at first -- the other CY in last year's Salish 100 was decked, and I was surprised to see the owner rowing and sailing in light air with the 4-stroke OB in the well and prop dragging. But with two kids aboard he didn't want the OB laying right in the middle of the cockpit, and probably didn't have any way to keep it in the correct position.

    So, although I try to never disagree with Canoeyawl who's had a gazillion years more experience and works in the marine engine business, I'm doing that now.

    The very best option would be a removable mount, and there are some lovely old bronze ones around for a top price. You could also make one, but keep in mind that for storage you probably can't keep the OB on the mount as that would probably be too large and ungainly.

    A fixed mount like the Dutch boats above would also work, and has the advantage of being far enough aft to reduce (but not eliminate) the issue of swamping it on that tack.

    And depending on what side mount you end up with, the OB should be able to be tipped up to get the prop out of the water on everything but a steep starboard tack. A huge advantage when beaching, but the downside is you have to operate the controls by leaning over the side of the boat.

    My OB laying down on cleats behind well and forward of the mizzen mast step.


    Cleat for skeg. I've since added a metal plate that can be pushed over to hold skeg in place while trailering -


    Cleat to hold top of OB in place. I've since added padeyes to the top cleat and use a heavy rubber truck bungee to hold the motor in place while towing.
    Last edited by Thorne; 02-11-2020 at 10:42 AM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Can a well not be built that the engine can tip all the way up , then close down on a faired out trap door?

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    You give up a bit of displacement with a well, and on a small boat that can be an issue.

    No only do you give up displacement, you then add weight right there!

    Thorne's problems would all be solved by going to a push pull tiller

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Bruce - not on a small double-ender, as you'd have a huge long hole in the bottom that, even with a plug, would put a lot of water ballast right where you don't need it. There isn't enough depth / height in a well to build a jackplate, which would allow the OB to be raised vertically to at least get the prop a bit higher.

    They make "keyhole" OB mounts for transom boats in the UK that allow just what you suggest, with the OB mounted slightly forward of the transom. But the hole is in the transom, not the bottom, so there's very little downside or loss of displacement at Canoeyawl points out.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Can a well not be built that the engine can tip all the way up , then close down on a faired out trap door?
    Drascombe Drifter OB mount -


    Drascombe Longboat -


    Here's the same setup on a Dolphin 24 - http://dolphin24.org/transom_plug.html




    Last edited by Thorne; 02-11-2020 at 12:28 PM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Thanks to you all for your comments and suggestions. I know that this topic has been discussed widely. I favor the idea of hanging the motor on the side of the boat, but I am aware that the motor would have to be removed for sailing. Also, I am concerned that, given the sweeping shear of the CY, the motor might have to be mounted lower than the rail to reach the water. Another concern is having the motor mounted that far off of center might effect slow speed steering.

    Does anyone have pictures of a side-mounted motor on a Caledonia Yawl?
    Bill

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I have a motor well in my CY Dragonfly and I agree with Thorne. It is a pain to put the motor in and out, and I have bounced the prop on the bottom while beaching, but that is the cost of such a good looking stern.... right? One of my spring jobs is to devise a way to just lift the motor about 8 inches or so to get the prop above the keel without fully removing it.

    If I were to install an OB outside a well, I think I would consider a modified electric trolling motor. I did a similar thing to mount a trolling motor on the stern of my keel boat for close quarters handling (poor man's stern thruster on an Albin Vega). I cut the motor head off and mounted the prop on the swim ladder, ran the wires through the hull to the motor control and battery that live in the stern locker/lazarette. When I need the thrust I just drop the swim ladder, otherwise the prop stays out of the water. I think my motor is only about 80 lb thrust but it pushes the 5,000 lb boat pretty well for manuevering. I would think it would push a CY to hull speed.

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Here is a bracket I built for a Thompson canoe I used to have. I'm posting these pictures to show how I overcame the torque problem (twisting) that an outboard applies to a bracket. Keep in mind that the lower unit of the outboard is actually trying to twist the bracket (long lever arm). I built the arm off the back of the bracket and diagonal to the base of the mount to address this. This allowed the bracket to be much lighter yet very resistant to that twisting motion. The whole bracket clamped on with two bolts & wing nuts.
    Maybe this will help a bit if you decide to build one yourself.















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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I have a freshwater electric trolling motor that I have used on my CLC Skerry. I mounted it close to the stern with a bracket that is intended for a canoe. This worked well on the Skerry, but I wasn't using it for a sailing auxillary. I was bass fishing in a local pond. I am planning to jury rig the trolling motor on the side of my Caledonia Yawl in the spring to get a sense of how well it pushes the bigger boat and what I have for range. I have considered a salt water trolling motor as auxillary power.

    Bill

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I suspect we've all been assuming you meant a small 2-3.5 hp outboard. Most smaller trolling motors will push your CY around in calm conditions but do next to nothing in gusting winds and strong currents.

    If you really want a trolling motor you should certainly try the one on your Skerry. You could also build a new rudder blade that contains the lower bulb and prop from a larger trolling motor, as this system bypasses the need for any sort of external bracket. These work well for sailing with the rudder blade kicked up enough to get the prop clear of the water, and for motoring with the rudder blade in the down position -- I've seen it done and it is impressive. Wires for power and controls are run up the rudder head and into to boat to the battery and control dial.

    But really, for getting in and out of channels and small harbors, oars will work as well as a trolling motor on something as big and as light as your CY.

    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I should have specified my intent at the begining of this thread. I am trying to decide on a solution that accomodates a 2-3 hp gas outboard. I agree that an electric trolling motor is probably not enough to do the job, but as I already own the electric trolling motor and have not yet purchased a gas motor, it's worth a try. My feeling is that I will need a 2-3 hp gas motor. Perhaps in doing so I will learn something that helps in my efforts to mount a gas motor.

    Bill

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    What is to stop someone from putting the motor well next to the cb trunk?

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    That is an interesting concept. I guess my first thought is that it would mean lost cockpit space. It would certainly simplify a retrofit. This is an idea worth pondering.

    Bill

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I think you'll learn a lot more by actually using a small OB on your boat. Why not fab up a clamp-on bracket, borrow a small OB from a friend and see how you like it?

    If considering a well you'll want to address the storage issue, assuming your CY has an afterdeck (photos would help). The main issue is that you'll need a way to lay the outboard down when you don't want it in the well, or want to beach the boat -- even a short shaft OB will hit bottom or obstructions when beaching. And you can't raise the front lip of the well to raise the OB up enough to make a difference -- I know this because I tried, and all it does is fountain up water out of the well and cavitate. Can you build chocks to hold the OB laying down on top of the afterdeck -- that would work if it doesn't interfere with steering or access to the mizzen.

    Due to the decking causing a storage issue a bracket might be a better option, although you'll need to come to grips with the possibility of dunking the OB when on a starboard tack. But a bracket allows you to kick the OB up enough where you should be able to beach the boat without having to remove it from the bracket. Downsides are as mentioned above -- having to lean out to refill fuel tank, reach controls, etc.

    FYI, I find that my 2.5 short shaft Yamaha pushes my CY at just over 5 knots, which is plenty of speed for anything I'll encounter in ordinary sensible boating.


    Quote Originally Posted by realkaykaker View Post
    I should have specified my intent at the begining of this thread. I am trying to decide on a solution that accomodates a 2-3 hp gas outboard. I agree that an electric trolling motor is probably not enough to do the job, but as I already own the electric trolling motor and have not yet purchased a gas motor, it's worth a try. My feeling is that I will need a 2-3 hp gas motor. Perhaps in doing so I will learn something that helps in my efforts to mount a gas motor.

    Bill
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    A naval arch friend of mine has run some numbers using larger trolling motors for row/ sail. An 80 lb troller would do nicely, every thing a 2 hp gas motor would do. The commercial lithium battery motors are in the 70-80 range. Advantage of the troller is that it is about half the weight of a gas motor so mounting and demounting isn't a problem way. If you use a troller in a well, the well needs a different shape: they have long skinny motors and larger diameter props than do gas engines. The bigger trollers are going to need 24 volt. If I was looking at a mount for my double ended Harrier I'd go with a side mount as far aft as I could get it with the prop not hitting the rudder. I'd use the mount for some sculling oar locks and to support my boomkin for which I have a short cross beam now.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I can't seem to find a good picture of the aft deck that does'nt have my wife sitting on it. I guess I've just identified another problem with installing a motor well there. My CY does have an afterdeck. I envision laying the motor on the floor, perhaps sliding it under the center thwart. I would have to provide a suitable way to secure it there. Not ideal as it will be a place to bark shins.

    Bill

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Ben, I've looked at and admired the Torqueedo outboards. Are these the motors you are referring to? They come with a nice storage case and you don't have to worry about laying them down on the right side. I worry about the day coming when you can't get a replacement for the proprietary battery though. If I was going to go electric, it would have to be with a standard marine battery. Comparing weight of the small "Travel 503" Torqueedo and a long shaft 2.3 hp honda, their pretty close. The Torqueedo is approximately 30lbs and the honda is 31 lb (dry weight). I have to say that the price tag of the Torqueedo is a little steep as well.

    Bill

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by realkaykaker View Post
    Ben, I've looked at and admired the Torqueedo outboards. Are these the motors you are referring to? They come with a nice storage case and you don't have to worry about laying them down on the right side. I worry about the day coming when you can't get a replacement for the proprietary battery though. If I was going to go electric, it would have to be with a standard marine battery. Comparing weight of the small "Travel 503" Torqueedo and a long shaft 2.3 hp honda, their pretty close. The Torqueedo is approximately 30lbs and the honda is 31 lb (dry weight). I have to say that the price tag of the Torqueedo is a little steep as well.

    Bill
    Yes, the two that are on the market are the Torqeedo and the Spirit. The advantage of the electrics is that you can remove the battery when carrying them so that you only have to deal with about 15 pounds. For standard motors the Minn Kota has been around the longest and are the least expensive. The Minn Kota Riptide is their salt water model and they do make an 80lb trust version. There are some interesting batteries falling in between lead acid and lithium called Firefly. They can be discharged much further than lead acid. People called Ocean Planet in Portland have them and have a lot of information on charging, solar panels etc. My NA friend uses an 80 pound thrust Minn Kota to move a boat about twice the weight of the Caledonia. Thirty pounds weight is max for civilized lifting; in the old two stroke days you could get a 4-5 horse that weighed that which is what I had for my 18' catboat. Not today,
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I just noticed a useful article in the recent issue of Small Craft Advisor (No. 122). Michael Jostock shows how he mounted a Torqeedo in a well using a home built retractable mount. It looks very neat, and needs no additional deck space to store the raised motor. Take a look if you have a copy.

    My own experiment in electric propulsion is coming together. In a week or so I should have an EP Carry outboard motor running on my Walkabout. The Walkabout is quite a bit lighter than a CY, but maybe I could get together with Thorne and see how this would drive his CY.

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I think of manhandling the motor aft to some sort of mounting bracket. Can the Torqueedo be placed and removed without the battery? I think placing the motor is when I would be most concerned with the weight.

    Haven't seen the most recent Small Craft Advisor yet. I should subscribe instead of waiting for it to show up on the newstand.

    Bill

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by realkaykaker View Post
    I think of manhandling the motor aft to some sort of mounting bracket. Can the Torqueedo be placed and removed without the battery? I think placing the motor is when I would be most concerned with the weight.

    Haven't seen the most recent Small Craft Advisor yet. I should subscribe instead of waiting for it to show up on the newstand.

    Bill
    I routinely take the battery off to move my Torqueedo around. In fact the boat lives on the mooring and the battery goes home for a recharge. That is one of the nice things. Problem with any bigger batteries when you live on a mooring is charging them. So you learn about solar panels. Not an issue for a trailer boat. For my old Johnson on my cat boat I had fitted blocks for it to lay on under a cockpit seat.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by realkaykaker View Post
    Ben, I've looked at and admired the Torqueedo outboards. Are these the motors you are referring to? They come with a nice storage case and you don't have to worry about laying them down on the right side. I worry about the day coming when you can't get a replacement for the proprietary battery though. If I was going to go electric, it would have to be with a standard marine battery. Comparing weight of the small "Travel 503" Torqueedo and a long shaft 2.3 hp honda, their pretty close. The Torqueedo is approximately 30lbs and the honda is 31 lb (dry weight). I have to say that the price tag of the Torqueedo is a little steep as well.

    Bill
    Does a Torqeedo motor have to use a Torqeedo battery? The EP Carry motor I'm getting was ordered without battery. I will supply my own 24V LiFePO4 from another source, a bigger battery than the usual one supplied but separate from the 14 lb motor. Lithium batteries are becoming more available and lower cost, and lead acid is always an option.

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I will typically break down my Torqeedo when I remove it from the side mount. The battery, tiller, and motor all have separate lanyards just in case I get clumsy and they go for a swim. If I'm in a hurry, I can lift the whole works off or on all together.

    I believe one can use any ol battery on the Torqeedo. All you need is proper voltage and the plug-in.

    Regarding side mounts... I will add that having one means thinking through how and when to put it on the bracket and take it off. You'll want sea room and, preferably, the proper tack. Although if the wind is light, either tack will do.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    I will typically break down my Torqeedo when I remove it from the side mount. The battery, tiller, and motor all have separate lanyards just in case I get clumsy and they go for a swim. If I'm in a hurry, I can lift the whole works off or on all together.

    I believe one can use any ol battery on the Torqeedo. All you need is proper voltage and the plug-in.

    Regarding side mounts... I will add that having one means thinking through how and when to put it on the bracket and take it off. You'll want sea room and, preferably, the proper tack. Although if the wind is light, either tack will do.

    Jeff
    I'm not sure how you would plug a Toqueedo into a 12v system without the battery being mounted. That said the LI battery will recharge from a 12volt system or a 12volt can be used as a range extender.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    I've been pondering this one while watching the snow, a new idea that I plan to try as soon as the snow is off the boat - have or make 1 side of motor well case about 8 inches higher than the side where the motor clamps on. When sailing (or beaching), clamp the motor on the high side (forward in my case) so that the prop is out of the water. When I need the motor, loosen the clamps, spin the motor 90 degrees and re-clamp it on the low side (inboard in my case). When beaching (or when wind is favorable) do the reverse and put the motor on the high side. I'll report back ....

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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott de M View Post
    I've been pondering this one while watching the snow, a new idea that I plan to try as soon as the snow is off the boat - have or make 1 side of motor well case about 8 inches higher than the side where the motor clamps on. When sailing (or beaching), clamp the motor on the high side (forward in my case) so that the prop is out of the water. When I need the motor, loosen the clamps, spin the motor 90 degrees and re-clamp it on the low side (inboard in my case). When beaching (or when wind is favorable) do the reverse and put the motor on the high side. I'll report back ....
    Scott -- been there, done that and it didn't work well at all.

    First, with a stock short shaft OB and well built to the plans, you've got 14" of OB sticking down through the well. And since the hull curves up with no bilge keels to protect the prop, you need to bring nearly the whole OB prob and shaft up -- or ALWAYS have all crew standing on the starboard side when beaching.

    So if you went with the raised mount system to get the OB mostly up out of the well, you'd have to have a big piece of wood sticking up in the middle of your helm area at all times, and an even taller obstacle if you mounted the OB up that high to beach it. You would have to stand at the helm and raise the tiller very high to clear this OB platform, unless using a push-pull setup.





    I tried raising the OB up nearly 4" and it was too short and fountained water up all over the boat...and me.


    I investigated the option of building a jackplate OB mount, as they don't make any commercial ones for small OBs, but that would still require a significantly raised front part to the motor well -- and I'm not fond of doing metalwork. But if you could always remember to have everyone stand to starboard when beaching and launching, and could make a trim and inexpensive manual jackplate, that might be the best option.
    Last edited by Thorne; 02-24-2020 at 10:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Ideas for motor mount retrofit for Caledonia Yawl

    Thanks Thorne, good points to think about. I would not have guessed a 14" lift was needed. I do have a push pull tiller, maybe instead of aiming to lift the prop clear of the hull I will aim for lifting the prop just high enough to be above the bottom of the keel. That would give some protection for beaching but would not solve the drag problem when sailing.

    Edited to add- I just brushed the snow off and did some measuring and fitting and pretty much confirmed what you got Thorne. But, if I raise the front case side 3" it will pull the prop up to where it is slightly above the keel which I think is all the protection I need for beaching as I anchor off anyway. As for getting the prop out of the water completely - I like your current solution shown in post #10 above - a couple strategically placed chocks with some tie downs. And for longer term storage - it goes under the stern thwart and is tied to the floors.

    And when I get too old to wrestle the Honda, it's time to go electric ....
    Last edited by Scott de M; 02-25-2020 at 09:56 PM.

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