What, exactly, is the socialism the folks on the right are afraid of?

[Garret]

John - You are not a lonely voice - but how exactly does one fix the lying? Specifics please.

[John Smith]

Capitalism consists of a pattern of regulation of economic activity. You can't have it without rule of law and secure property rights, contract law, etc.

Socialism is the social ownership of the means of production.

Pretty much all societies have entities that are public an entities that are private, which means the distinction between the systems is largely artificial. We know a great deal about which entities function best under public ownership and which function best under private ownership. The typical example of a public good is a lighthouse. If it functions, you cannot exclude free riders from using it, so it can't function as a market good. It's also true that if you cannot, in good conscience, exclude people from use of a good, it can't function as a private, marketplace good. That's why healthcare is such a problem, and why Medicare is so popular.

More here: https://booksellersvsbestsellers.blo...ghthouses.html

and here: https://booksellersvsbestsellers.blo...socialism.html

As to why Republicans fear socialism, consider that Americans pay about twice as much as some other advanced countries for their healthcare, and somebody is getting that money. Socialism is a threat to the profits of their political donors (and the donors of some Democrats, of whom Joe Lieberman was a prime example.) They should relax, most of society is not public goods, and should not be socialized.

Agree with all of that, but: No one is proposing Socialism as you define it. Health INSURANCE would be provided by the government under single payer.

What is being proposed that people see as socialism as you just defined it?

[John Smith]

It's a circle, the extreme right and the extreme left are virtually indistinguishable. Often the adherents of one morph into an adherent of the other without even noticing. The rhetoric is the same, only the word is different.

Examples? "Extreme left" wants single payer healthcare system, climate change addressed, meaningful covid relief, higher minimum wage, etc.

How close to that is the extreme right?

[SMARTINSEN]

The inimitable Jim Wright.

i need a cigarette

[John Smith]

The inimitable Jim Wright.

That was brilliant.

[John Smith]

John - You are not a lonely voice - but how exactly does one fix the lying? Specifics please.

I would think lawsuits. Possibly criminal charges. Neither happens as long as we see it as free speech.

[Tom from Rubicon]

#4-7-15, Keith gets honorable mention for Jim Wright quote. Seems I have to read more of this Jim Wright's thoughts.
Tom

[johnw]

Agree with all of that, but: No one is proposing Socialism as you define it. Health INSURANCE would be provided by the government under single payer.

What is being proposed that people see as socialism as you just defined it?

Wrong. If you provide health insurance through the government with single payer, you socialize health insurance industry. That's why Joe Lieberman opposed the public option for Obamacare, he had a lot of insurance companies headquartered in his state.

[webishop14]

Keith --

Thanks for the Jim Wright piece. A different hammer, same nail, same accuracy. My soon-to-be ex wife's boyfriend ingests a non-stop diet of fear and anger, and his only response to a difference of opinion is anger and denigration.

"any day now, any way now, I shall be released."

[skuthorp]

Wrong. If you provide health insurance through the government with single payer, you socialize health insurance industry. That's why Joe Lieberman opposed the public option for Obamacare, he had a lot of insurance companies headquartered in his state.

Kaching! Kaching!

[LeeG]

Well Mandrake, it’s in the water, socialism, it’ll drain your essence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrrlQc4xvmE

[oznabrag]

Do they boycott any of these? When a Republican turns 65, does he decline Medicare? They claim to support police, which are government provided. Trump, as I said, has sued many in the courts provided by government.

I know of no one who boycotts roads or airports.

Ugh.

What is the mystery, here?

It's Socialism when BLACK PEOPLE get Medicare.

It's Socialism when BLACK PEOPLE get police protection.

[oznabrag]

Capitalists are terrified of the breakdown of regulation. That's why they want strong police forces, so poor people don't rise up and take their stuff. "Steal that island, enslave those people" preceded capitalisms by, well, most of recorded history. The right would like you to believe that capitalism is the natural state of man, and all the banditry and exploitation of the past was natural as well. Changing the structure of capitalism, as the New Deal did, can change the outcomes. And changing the system again, as has happened in English-speaking countries especially over the last half century, has changed the outcomes again.

Doing the best for the majority is democracy. That's why the right keeps trying to limit the franchise.

No regulation at all isn't capitalism, it's banditry. The bankers and the lawyers don't do well in banditry, because people keep taking their stuff.

Hear, Hear!

The Capitalist Ideal was old-school Mussolini Fascism, because in that ideal, the Corporations ARE the State.

Of course they can't ADMIT they're ardent Fascists because it's rather embarrassing, but there it is.

[Garret]

I would think lawsuits. Possibly criminal charges. Neither happens as long as we see it as free speech.

So - Trump says he thinks the election was stolen. You can sue him for saying what he believes? You & I know it's a lie - but how does one prove in court that he knew he was lying?

[Keith Wilson]

Examples? "Extreme left" wants single payer healthcare system, climate change addressed, meaningful covid relief, higher minimum wage, etc. How close to that is the extreme right?

The US has no 'extreme left', not even close; by the standards of most of the world, barely even an moderate left. Communism is, fortunately, mostly extinct.

[oznabrag]

The US has no 'extreme left', not even close; by the standards of most of the world, barely even an moderate left. Communism is, fortunately, mostly extinct.

Next we need to get rid of whatever-the-f*** is grinding most of us into paste.

Capitalism can be the greatest thing ever, if you say so, but the fact remains that its natural progression is toward Fascism.

[Andrew2]

The US has no 'extreme left', not even close; by the standards of most of the world, barely even an moderate left. Communism is, fortunately, mostly extinct.

One always viewed US politics as right and further right compared with much of the organised world. Communism has hardly existed anyware, just a word used to justify dictatorial states run for 'the good of the people', though rarely did/does. Cuba?

Couple of Trumpies on CNN yesterday. When asked who they trusted, they dissed all the basics of democracy, just trusting Trump and his supporters. Actually supported the take over of Guv by 'the people', so, mob rule followed by a dictatorship. They should be scooped up en mass and dumped in a country where that exists.

[John Smith]

Wrong. If you provide health insurance through the government with single payer, you socialize health insurance industry. That's why Joe Lieberman opposed the public option for Obamacare, he had a lot of insurance companies headquartered in his state.

yes socialize insurance just as we socialize roads, courts, police, navigational aids, traffic signs, etc.

This would be bad, why?

It would be good, IMO, as it would get the cost of insurance of of employers. It would take the profit out of health insurance, it would cut the overhead of providers, etc.

We could, of course, privatize all the things I mentioned. But that gets us to building our own roads, rather than using roads paid for by taxes. Imagine every road being a toll road.

Some things are done better by private industry. Some are done better by government. We need to see the difference.

Again, I post a statement from an ER visit, where they took two x-rays, told me to apply heat, and sent me home.

If I had no insurance, I'd have been billed for that $9k amount. This provider contracted with Medicare to accept the $167 amount, because it covered more than what it cost them.health care cropped.jpg

[Todd D]

I suspect some of it reflects a fear of getting something for your taxes. If people perceive that they are individually getting something tangible for their taxes it makes it harder to justify cutting taxes.

[Boatbum]

Do those over 65 decline Medicare? It's not mandatory.

So if then if you oppose "Dark Money" do yo feel that a candidate should refuse the money when running for office even if they are legally able to accept it?
If you make a little money selling a stock, do you insist it be taxed as income or do you pay the lower capital gains tax?


That said, I don't recall the GOP ever advocating for the abolition of Medicare though they are not keen on the "Medicare for all" idea

Lastly, I'm not sure of the connection between supporting police or ignoring stop signs, and socialism. Having laws and rules has little to do with socialism. However, the kinds of laws and rule do.

[Hugh Conway]

Dishonest or delusional?

~14% of US households own individual stocks. “Making a little money in stocks” ain’t a mainstream thing.

[Boatbum]

Dishonest or delusional?

~14% of US households own individual stocks. “Making a little money in stocks” ain’t a mainstream thing.

And 44% of the household own mutual funds which is a company that invests in an array of "individual stocks" - more mainstream than you think. Unless those mutual funds are in an IRA or retirement account the sale of those stocks generate short and/or long-term capital gains. My son had mutual funds that I put in his name for his college education. Every year taxes had to be paid on the gains from these mutual funds. More importantly, my point is that people do not act against their self interests. So if they are legally entitled to something (even something that they feels should be eliminated) they will take advantage of that offering. If I were laid off due to covid-19, I would be entitled to a weekly stimulus check in addition to my unemployment payment. Ironically I could make more money right now by being laid off than working. Some of my coworkers are doing just that. I think this is wrong (no one should make more money by not working), but if I were laid off I can assure you that I would not pass on the weekly Covid relief check in addition to my unemployment. Would you?

[Hugh Conway]

Unless those mutual funds are in an IRA or retirement account the sale of those stocks generate short and/or long-term capital gains.

which is where most are held.

the tired lies in defense of the Trumpublican party are tired. If the extra $300 a week means laid off coworkers are making more than you, being a conservative or Republican or whatever you pretend to be is voting against your interest.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Today’s Financial Times has announced that the USA is now a social democratic state, because that is what the great majority of the people want, and it is Congress and the Judiciary who are out of line with what most Americans actually want.

Case in point: Biden’s stimulus

Welcome back, cousins. We missed you.

[John Smith]

Ugh.

What is the mystery, here?

It's Socialism when BLACK PEOPLE get Medicare.

It's Socialism when BLACK PEOPLE get police protection.

And when black people use our roads?

[John Smith]

So - Trump says he thinks the election was stolen. You can sue him for saying what he believes? You & I know it's a lie - but how does one prove in court that he knew he was lying?

Actually, he states is as fact. Right wing 'news' tells us it was full of fraud.

Over 60 lawsuits were tossed, some by Trump appointed judges, as they could find NO evidence of any substantial fraud.

Trump said, as a fact, that he had the biggest electoral college victory since Reagan. He, and his right wing cronies, told us they had the virus under great control.

Courts have already determined, more than 60 times, that Biden won a fair election.

How is Trump, or FOX, or Newsmax, etc. saying, still, the election was stolen, that the machines switched votes, any different than a car dealer turning back an odometer?

[John Smith]

Next we need to get rid of whatever-the-f*** is grinding most of us into paste.

Capitalism can be the greatest thing ever, if you say so, but the fact remains that its natural progression is toward Fascism.

Unfettered Capitalism is what got the river to catch fire in '69. Private business uses the roads built by our taxes to deliver their goods, be it ingredients or parts, supplies get to the factory over a government provided infrastructure. Those goods get to the customer over that infrastructure.

In my humble opinion, healthcare should be seen as part of that infrastructure, and be included in it.

[John Smith]

So if then if you oppose "Dark Money" do yo feel that a candidate should refuse the money when running for office even if they are legally able to accept it?
If you make a little money selling a stock, do you insist it be taxed as income or do you pay the lower capital gains tax?


That said, I don't recall the GOP ever advocating for the abolition of Medicare though they are not keen on the "Medicare for all" idea

Lastly, I'm not sure of the connection between supporting police or ignoring stop signs, and socialism. Having laws and rules has little to do with socialism. However, the kinds of laws and rule do.

All those traffic lights, stop signs, etc. are provided by some level of government; and that seems to be socialism.

We have a large chunk of our population who have been convinced that private companies do everything better than the government. I don't see the facts supporting it

Trump, as an example, LOST suits for fraud, discrimination, and other things. He bankrupted a lot of his private businesses.

Government makes laws intended to protect us. Hard to find a regulation that was not a response to a perceived need.

As to the 'dark' money. I think our elections are far to costly. I'd like to get money out of politics, but that won't happen. When you play any game, you have to play by the rules in place, even if you don't like some of those rules.

[Keith Wilson]

Capitalism can be the greatest thing ever, if you say so, but the fact remains that its natural progression is toward Fascism.

Eh? I was going to be snarky, but let's just look at the data. Capitalist countries that have made the supposedly 'natural progression toward Fascism'"
- Italy, 1920s-1945
- Germany, 1930s-1945
- Spain, 1930s-1975
- Japan - not really fascist as such in the '30s, nor all that capitalist before. Quite democratic now.
- Portugal, 1920s-1968
- Russia recently- never really capitalist, although Putin's regime resembles fascism in many respects.
- Hungary and Poland - sorta kinda, right-wing populist governments, not really fascist, and they barely got over communism.
- Latin America - plenty of examples from the 20th century, none remaining. Bolosnaro in Brazil has far more than his share of faults, but a fascist he isn't; not really. Honduras and El Salvador and Guatemala are total messes, but not dictatorships yet, at least. Chile's doing pretty well, all things considered. Lots of data here.
- Indonesia, sort of, 1965-1998

Africa I don't know enough about to really say anything useful. There are plenty of non-democratic governments in the Middle East, but none that can be called 'fascist' with anything like accuracy. Islamist regimes, no matter how unpleasant, aren't the same thing. And the Middle East in the last couple of centuries was never more than tenuously capitalist.

So where is the evidence that capitalism's 'natural progression' is toward fascism? It can certainly degenerate into fascism, or be taken over by fascists, no doubt, and has sometimes - but 'natural progression'? Quite the opposite, in fact. In the last century, almost every genuinely fascist-capitalist state in the world has become reasonably democratic, sometimes after being defeated in a war, but more often by internal reforms, or internal revolution. Far from perfect, but far from fascist in most cases. The evidence is far, far better that advanced capitalism tends to go with reasonably functional democracy.

[webishop14]

And when black people use our roads?

Driving While Black can become a capital offense.

[Garret]

And when black people use our roads?

As WebBishop pointed out - give it a try & see how well it goes for you. Those of color are WAY more likely to get stopped/assets seized, etc.

[Boatbum]

All those traffic lights, stop signs, etc. are provided by some level of government; and that seems to be socialism.

We have a large chunk of our population who have been convinced that private companies do everything better than the government. I don't see the facts supporting it

Trump, as an example, LOST suits for fraud, discrimination, and other things. He bankrupted a lot of his private businesses.

Government makes laws intended to protect us. Hard to find a regulation that was not a response to a perceived need.

As to the 'dark' money. I think our elections are far to costly. I'd like to get money out of politics, but that won't happen. When you play any game, you have to play by the rules in place, even if you don't like some of those rules.

Since when is opposing socialism also a opposition to any form of governance? That's just ridiculous hyperbole.

[Boatbum]

which is where most are held.

the tired lies in defense of the Trumpublican party are tired. If the extra $300 a week means laid off coworkers are making more than you, being a conservative or Republican or whatever you pretend to be is voting against your interest.

You just can't stay on topic can you? You insult me and make comments to my posts that are off topic and hostile. This last post is nearly unintelligible. I have this image of you sitting in your kitchen with a tin hat making posts all day only interrupted by your need to go on your from porch and yell at the neighbor's kid for being to loud. Why are you such an angry old fart?

[Garret]

Since when is opposing socialism also a opposition to any form of governance? That's just ridiculous hyperbole.

The point is that if you oppose any form of socialism, it means you oppose roads, public schools, police, fire departments & so many other things that are provided by government & paid for & shared by all. So - what we're hearing from you is that you don't oppose socialism, you oppose some things being socialized,

[ahp]

I don't see any of them boycotting roads or airports.

The claim to support the police.

Do those over 65 decline Medicare? It's not mandatory.

Their fearless leader is no stranger to courts; provided by our government.

Do they believe they can ignore stop signs or lights because the government installed them?

I must be missing something.

I will, the FAA. They do fly don't they?

Food and Drug Administration. When they go to the drug store are they getting what they paid for?

Public education. Poor families don't pay enough taxes to educate a child. You want illiterates?