Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 44

Thread: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    38,598

    Default Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    I just sent this to my two senators.

    "I think it's plain dumb to let the minimum wage prevent the rest of this package from passing. I also think some compromise on a stand alone increase is wise. Maybe you cant get $12 passed with an escalator clause, so it goes up every year COLA plus 1 or 2%/ Then you'd never have to go through this again."

    Let us remember the $15 was not immediate in the proposed legislation. Someone making $7 an hour who gets an immediate increase to, say, $10, sees a substantial raise in his pay. $12 even more substantial.

    Automatically going up a bit every year will mean congress won't have to argue about this every year or two.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Bradford, VT
    Posts
    9,826

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Why was minimum wage even included, when it clearly violated the agreed on parliamentary guidelines?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    10,212

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    Why was minimum wage even included, when it clearly violated the agreed on parliamentary guidelines?
    Actually it did not violate the rules. What is did was make it not comply with the budget reconciliation rule.

    But if they did not want to get rid of the filibuster rule, they should not have violated the budget reconciliation rule.

    Remember all the people making these decisions have experience. They know better. The only reason to do this stuff is to delay. Makes one sad to be a Democrat.
    Life is complex.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    10,212

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I just sent this to my two senators.

    "I think it's plain dumb to let the minimum wage prevent the rest of this package from passing. I also think some compromise on a stand alone increase is wise. Maybe you cant get $12 passed with an escalator clause, so it goes up every year COLA plus 1 or 2%/ Then you'd never have to go through this again."

    Let us remember the $15 was not immediate in the proposed legislation. Someone making $7 an hour who gets an immediate increase to, say, $10, sees a substantial raise in his pay. $12 even more substantial.

    Automatically going up a bit every year will mean congress won't have to argue about this every year or two.
    At one time the minimum wage was a starting wage for a kid. Now, it is the terminal wage for many adults with families. Given that change would you work for minimum wage - $15/hr, if you had a family? If not, why would you want others to be paid that?

    $15/hr is too little now. It will be a lot too little when it phases in.
    Life is complex.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    The Garden State
    Posts
    8,918

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    They tried to get it through because they know the Republicans would never in a million years allow the little guys even one more cent. I too wish they would get ride of the Filibuster, most other countries get along just fine without it. If you have to keep it, make the person doing stand up and talk the entire time. Once you sit down, filibustering is over and it is time to vote.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

    -Dalai Lama

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    860

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    At one time the minimum wage was a starting wage for a kid. Now, it is the terminal wage for many adults with families. Given that change would you work for minimum wage - $15/hr, if you had a family? If not, why would you want others to be paid that?

    $15/hr is too little now. It will be a lot too little when it phases in.
    Just curious, how much of that $15/hr is left after taxes etc.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    downward bound
    Posts
    7,380

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Every Republican in the House voted against funding to reopen schools.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    19,272

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    If the Min wage had been fixed 20 years ago, If Ron Raygun had not begun the destruction of the middle class 40 years ago, it would not NEED to be attached to the "free money" thing.
    Tank the bill...if the money was for actual tanks on the other hand....

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Valley of the Sun
    Posts
    108,510

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Every Republican in the House voted against funding to reopen schools.
    i eagerly await peb's condemnation
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    38,598

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    At one time the minimum wage was a starting wage for a kid. Now, it is the terminal wage for many adults with families. Given that change would you work for minimum wage - $15/hr, if you had a family? If not, why would you want others to be paid that?

    $15/hr is too little now. It will be a lot too little when it phases in.
    I don't disagree, but $15 an hour is NOT going to pass, and as it is presented, it's a gradual climb to $15.

    The rest of this bill NEEDS to pass.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    38,598

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    They tried to get it through because they know the Republicans would never in a million years allow the little guys even one more cent. I too wish they would get ride of the Filibuster, most other countries get along just fine without it. If you have to keep it, make the person doing stand up and talk the entire time. Once you sit down, filibustering is over and it is time to vote.
    They don't have the votes to get rid of the filibuster, which, IMO, they now have backwards. Can't pass legislation with a majority, but they can put one on the Supreme Court with a majority.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Valley of the Sun
    Posts
    108,510

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    face it, republicans are just better at politics than democrats are
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Bradford, VT
    Posts
    9,826

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Opening schools seems like something of a red herring; the CDC has published guidelines for so doing, based on data showing that schools are not spreading loci, and infant, may have lower infectivity rates than the communities. Additionally, some states have had schools open for some time (e.g. Vermont).

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    10,212

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    They don't have the votes to get rid of the filibuster, which, IMO, they now have backwards. Can't pass legislation with a majority, but they can put one on the Supreme Court with a majority.
    There is an analysis of bypassing the filibuster at https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020...-eliminate-it/

    The filibuster is only preventing bills passing the Senate because at least some Democrats want it to be so. I am all in favor of the Majority leader shutting down the entire government until the Senators decide to comply.
    Life is complex.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    33,329

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    A minimum wage should a living wage, in other words it should be at a level that is above the poverty line. It seems a lot of service industry jobs rely heavily on tips but a tip should be a thank you for good service, not a wage subsidy.
    ​In a world full of wonders, man invented boredom.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    38,598

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    A minimum wage should a living wage, in other words it should be at a level that is above the poverty line. It seems a lot of service industry jobs rely heavily on tips but a tip should be a thank you for good service, not a wage subsidy.
    I agree, but it won't pass. It won't get 50 votes.

    If it stays attached to Covid bill, the whole bill goes down.

    I also think we should get rid of tips and pay people wages. Tips are wages I pay someone else's hired help.

    Fighting, and losing, for $15 and hour is worse, IMO, that accepting $12 an hour, assuming votes are there for that.

    The insanity here is states where this wage has been increased have BETTER economies than those where it hasn't.

    Back in the early 90's, Hillary Clinton partook in a large round table discussion on minimum wage. Only she brought documents as to the impact of previous minimum wage hikes.

    When someone claimed people lost jobs when the minimum wage was raised, she challenged them to find one.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    33,934

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Senate Republicans are saying that the actual COVID spending is only 9% of the money in the bill. If true, then that is a great example of what is wrong with national politics and the Democrats are as bad as the Republicans.

    I do agree with raising the minimum raise. There are a lot of things we need to do. But don't lump them all together and pretend it's all the same. I don't want either side lying to me.
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    10,212

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    When someone claimed people lost jobs when the minimum wage was raised, she challenged them to find one.
    As I recall a large number of jobs have moved out of the country. I am certain that some of them have to do with wages here. I know of at least 2 businesses that have moved to robots to replace minimum wage workers.

    Your comment about "BETTER economies" is misleading. State GDP and other measures may go up, but some people lose jobs. And some job are replaced by machines.
    Life is complex.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Pompano Beach, FLorida
    Posts
    1,050

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Minimum wage is a political football that's the least we can manage with out broken politics. It shouldn't be a thing, but in order to get rid of it, we'd need massive increases in unionization. And since that would bring about the apocalypse, we're stuck with minimum political effort wage.

    At this point it's simply a blaring example of red vs blue politics. The only reasons for, or against, it are what team you're on. The same as abortion or gun control.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    10,212

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Senate Republicans are saying that the actual COVID spending is only 9% of the money in the bill. If true, then that is a great example of what is wrong with national politics and the Democrats are as bad as the Republicans.

    I do agree with raising the minimum raise. There are a lot of things we need to do. But don't lump them all together and pretend it's all the same. I don't want either side lying to me.
    The 9% is misleading. It selectively counts what the Republicans want to count.

    It is unreasonable to not count the extended unemployment benefits or the one time stimulus payments.
    Life is complex.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    38,598

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Senate Republicans are saying that the actual COVID spending is only 9% of the money in the bill. If true, then that is a great example of what is wrong with national politics and the Democrats are as bad as the Republicans.

    I do agree with raising the minimum raise. There are a lot of things we need to do. But don't lump them all together and pretend it's all the same. I don't want either side lying to me.
    You'd believe the senate Republicans?
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    38,598

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    As I recall a large number of jobs have moved out of the country. I am certain that some of them have to do with wages here. I know of at least 2 businesses that have moved to robots to replace minimum wage workers.

    Your comment about "BETTER economies" is misleading. State GDP and other measures may go up, but some people lose jobs. And some job are replaced by machines.
    I'll disagree; I think the biggest obstacle to creating American jobs is our healthcare system. The cost of employer paid health insurance is often more than the wages.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    38,598

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    Minimum wage is a political football that's the least we can manage with out broken politics. It shouldn't be a thing, but in order to get rid of it, we'd need massive increases in unionization. And since that would bring about the apocalypse, we're stuck with minimum political effort wage.

    At this point it's simply a blaring example of red vs blue politics. The only reasons for, or against, it are what team you're on. The same as abortion or gun control.
    I disagree. I think everyone getting paid minimum wage would like a raise, regardless of party. Might be a very few exceptions, but who doesn't want a raise?
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    33,934

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The 9% is misleading. It selectively counts what the Republicans want to count.

    It is unreasonable to not count the extended unemployment benefits or the one time stimulus payments.
    Is that what they did? Figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    You'd believe the senate Republicans?
    I believe people who put more thought into their remarks like TLT did and I only believe him partially. It gives me something specific to research. But, no, I don't believe Senate Republicans as a rule and I try to understand how they lie rather than just that they lie.

    I do believe that the minimum wage has nothing to do with COVID relief. I support it, but it's not COVID relief and should not be in this bill.
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    33,329

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    The bottom line is you take the present minimum wage and you apply the cost of living to it. If the cost of living outweighs the wage then you have to increase the wage. There should also be a non taxable threshold on income tax, if you earn below a certain figure (in Australia it's around $18,500) you don't pay income tax on earnings.
    Health insurance, you introduce a medicare levy on income tax to fund universal health care.
    ​In a world full of wonders, man invented boredom.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    38,598

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Is that what they did? Figures.



    I believe people who put more thought into their remarks like TLT did and I only believe him partially. It gives me something specific to research. But, no, I don't believe Senate Republicans as a rule and I try to understand how they lie rather than just that they lie.

    I do believe that the minimum wage has nothing to do with COVID relief. I support it, but it's not COVID relief and should not be in this bill.
    I agree. And putting it in the bill puts the rest of the bill at risk.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    38,598

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    The bottom line is you take the present minimum wage and you apply the cost of living to it. If the cost of living outweighs the wage then you have to increase the wage. There should also be a non taxable threshold on income tax, if you earn below a certain figure (in Australia it's around $18,500) you don't pay income tax on earnings.
    Health insurance, you introduce a medicare levy on income tax to fund universal health care.
    Absolutely minimum wage needs to be increased. It also needs to go up every year; my suggestion is COLA plus 1%, so we never have to vote on it again.

    The point here is attaching it in any way to the Covid bill risks killing the entire bill, and that would be a costly mistake.

    Better, IMO, to put a minimum wage stand alone, and put everyone on record as voting for it or against it, and see how that plays in '22's election.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    38,814

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Absolutely minimum wage needs to be increased. It also needs to go up every year; my suggestion is COLA plus 1%, so we never have to vote on it again.

    The point here is attaching it in any way to the Covid bill risks killing the entire bill, and that would be a costly mistake.

    Better, IMO, to put a minimum wage stand alone, and put everyone on record as voting for it or against it, and see how that plays in '22's election.
    The Reps have done a very good job of scaring people about it - saying it'll raise prices to where no one will be able to afford anything anymore. Of course the reality is that, while it will raise prices, it won't raise them significantly in the short term.

    I do wonder (& haven't seen info on this) about how it'll raise other wages & the effect that'll have. What I'm talking about is (for example) a customer of mine who has 50+ machine operators. These folks currently make 15-18/hour. If easier entry level jobs are 15, their wages will have to go up to 20-22 or so to stay competitive, then the wages of those above them will need to rise, etc.

    I'm not saying the minimum shouldn't be a living wage - just that I don't know what the long term effects would be.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    downward bound
    Posts
    7,380

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    The repubes have done a better job pretending people donít like it.

    Florida raised their minimum wage to $15 effective 2026 in November, by initiative. Repubes are trying to dismantle it because repubes donít care about voters.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    10,212

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I believe people who put more thought into their remarks like TLT did and I only believe him partially. It gives me something specific to research.

    I do believe that the minimum wage has nothing to do with COVID relief. I support it, but it's not COVID relief and should not be in this bill.

    Once you lose it, it was really difficult to find an image like this.

    On https://www.google.com/search?q=%241...h=779&biw=1639 there is a frame from a video indicating $160 billion (8+% of the $1.9 trillion) is "to build national vaccine program/boost testing". (There is a 60 second ad and then at 29 seconds this frame shows up.)

    I don't see any reason to limit a bill to one issue. So I am more than happy to include a minimum wage or other provisions that help the poor - and perhaps their general health.
    Life is complex.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    10,212

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I do wonder (& haven't seen info on this) about how it'll raise other wages & the effect that'll have. What I'm talking about is (for example) a customer of mine who has 50+ machine operators. These folks currently make 15-18/hour. If easier entry level jobs are 15, their wages will have to go up to 20-22 or so to stay competitive, then the wages of those above them will need to rise, etc.

    I'm not saying the minimum shouldn't be a living wage - just that I don't know what the long term effects would be.
    There are a couple issues that should be considered.

    First, many states have or on the path to $15/hr. They don't anticipate problems. Past raises in state minimum wage tend to support a claim of lack of problems.

    Second, a federal minimum wage is not a national minimum wage. It only covers "employees of enterprises that have annual gross volume of sales or business done of at least $500,000." And it does not cover independent contractors.
    Life is complex.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    33,934

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    TLT, that's interesting. I'm only guessing because the pie chart does not show the details, but I would guess that just over half of the bill is directed at fighting COVID and addressing the problems created by it. That assumes that "State and Local" is not, but it probably is to some degree and maybe entirely.
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    downward bound
    Posts
    7,380

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    Opening schools seems like something of a red herring; the CDC has published guidelines for so doing, based on data showing that schools are not spreading loci, and infant, may have lower infectivity rates than the communities. Additionally, some states have had schools open for some time (e.g. Vermont).
    Oh, the cry of opening schools is an utterly bad faith lie pushed by Republicans who don’t give a damn about actually opening schools or coming up with a plan. It’s just their normal utterly shameless screeching. The worst state in the nation? Maryland, which has a Republican governor.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    33,934

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Oh, the cry of opening schools is an utterly bad faith lie pushed by Republicans who don’t give a damn about actually opening schools or coming up with a plan. It’s just their normal utterly shameless screeching. The worst state in the nation? Maryland, which has a Republican governor.
    The Maryland governor has been doing a very good job of controlling COVID. He is not a Trumpian Republican. I can't even enter the state to see my family without a 12-day quarantine when I get there (and not with my family). The POTUS is encouraging reopening schools, which I regret, and the CDC seems to backs him up.
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    33,329

    Default Re: Minimum wage ought not tank the whole bill

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Absolutely minimum wage needs to be increased. It also needs to go up every year; my suggestion is COLA plus 1%, so we never have to vote on it again.

    The point here is attaching it in any way to the Covid bill risks killing the entire bill, and that would be a costly mistake.

    Better, IMO, to put a minimum wage stand alone, and put everyone on record as voting for it or against it, and see how that plays in '22's election.
    You link it to the CPI , consumer price index.
    ​In a world full of wonders, man invented boredom.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •