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Thread: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

  1. #1
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    Default CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    Just stumbled across this. Fiberglass Herreshoff 12-1/2 for sale on Bainbridge Island. Ask is $31k (crazy, right?)

    https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/b...261955222.html



    Produced by Nathanial Herreshoff in 1915 as a stable and well-balanced daysailer for the wind and waves of Buzzards Bay Massachusetts, the classic design was sold to Cape Cod Shipbuilding in 1947. In 1970 a fiberglass hull version of the original was produced, maintaining the original mahogany and teak trim, bronze hardware, and lead keel. The spars are solid Sitka spruce, and the gaff rig and self-tending jib make this a joy to sail with others or single-handed. Safety is enhanced by flotation air tanks and a 750-pound lead keel, making for stability said to be unmatched in a sixteen-foot sailboat.

    Produced in 2007, this boat was sailed in fresh water on Lake Michigan and stored indoors until moved to Bainbridge Island in 2018. Currently stored on her trailer under a winter cover with interior heat.
    Draft 29” Beam 5’10” Displacement 1350 lbs LOA 15’9”

    Factory options include:
    Main and jib from Thurston Sails (excellent condition); Mahogany coamings, boom crutch, rub rails, and toe rails; Mahogany seats with custom padded seat covers; Spinnaker spruce pole; Mahogany transom interior; Flag halyard; Lifting sling; Outboard bracket.

    Accessories:
    Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric motor (new); Silva compass mounted at mast; Tiller clutch; Mainsail and jib covers; Cockpit cover; Winter cover: Stainless boarding ladder (new); Fenders and lines; Triad custom trailer in excellent condition with new tires and wiring harness; Owner’s manual and rigging instructions.

    Email request for additional photographs of this beautiful daysailer.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  2. #2
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    I suppose with a glass hull, you could seal up the ends and have the safety of the original air tanks back.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    The list price of a new one from Cape Cod Shipbuilding is $52K.

    I think that they have glass buoyancy tanks.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    Boat prices are interesting. I know not everyone is inclined to build their own, or has the space and time available--or more importantly, adjust their perceptions of what kind of boat might offer the best value...

    But from a pure money perspective, I could have afforded to build 12 additional copies of this 18' boat (or 7 copies, each including the same high-end sail) for $31,000:

    1.jpg

    Longer waterline, similar accommodations. Looks are subjective, and the 12 1/2 is highly regarded for its aesthetic appeal, I think.

    It is always interesting to me to see what people will spend lots of money on, and to think about why that is. I suppose for one thing, they have the money, unlike me.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  5. #5
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post

    Longer waterline, similar accommodations. Looks are subjective, and the 12 1/2 is highly regarded for its aesthetic appeal, I think.
    keel boat versus dinghy

    and let's not forget the cult of herreshoff
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    keel boat versus dinghy

    and let's not forget the cult of herreshoff
    I know, but I didn't want to mention too many advantages my boat has over the 12 1/2--I thought that might come off as arrogant!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    52K for a new daysailer. 30K for a used one. Feels like a ton of money to me but look at what people are paying for Marshall cats these days. I don't get it.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    Since the H12 is the great grandpa of my own boat (Somes Sound 12.5), I'm always interested in them, Havens, and anything similar. Especially when they are in my own backyard. From my past observations of the group hereabouts, that price is on the outer fringe. A friend/neighbor bought a used one like it last summer for what I think was in the mid-$20Ks. His was in really good condition but needed varnish maintenance. The boat pictured doesn't seem to, but one would have to look.

    Tom, your boat would have cost you a lot more than what you paid for materials had it been produced by a working yard. I paid about $10K for all the materials for my boat but didn't pay myself for the time spent over 16 months to build it. Nor did I charge myself rent for the shop space in which to build it. When I was still building custom furniture as my profession, one working quick estimate of what to charge a customer was five times the cost of raw materials. Now, I never bought into that rule of thumb, but it has an element of truth. So on that basis, my boat is worth $50K. Right... and here's a bridge to buy. What I'm saying is that it's complete folly to compare homebuilds to manufactured boats. This disparity is evident when new and continues in the used market.

    Jeff

  9. #9
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    Since the H12 is the great grandpa of my own boat (Somes Sound 12.5), I'm always interested in them, Havens, and anything similar. Especially when they are in my own backyard. From my past observations of the group hereabouts, that price is on the outer fringe. A friend/neighbor bought a used one like it last summer for what I think was in the mid-$20Ks. His was in really good condition but needed varnish maintenance. The boat pictured doesn't seem to, but one would have to look.

    Tom, your boat would have cost you a lot more than what you paid for materials had it been produced by a working yard. I paid about $10K for all the materials for my boat but didn't pay myself for the time spent over 16 months to build it. Nor did I charge myself rent for the shop space in which to build it. When I was still building custom furniture as my profession, one working quick estimate of what to charge a customer was five times the cost of raw materials. Now, I never bought into that rule of thumb, but it has an element of truth. So on that basis, my boat is worth $50K. Right... and here's a bridge to buy. What I'm saying is that it's complete folly to compare homebuilds to manufactured boats. This disparity is evident when new and continues in the used market.

    Jeff
    Jeff,

    you're absolutely right, of course, about the reality of pro pricing vs. materials costs in amateur construction, which leaves out those pesky wages. I suspect any competent pro would also use more expensive materials than I did, so another bit of economy opportunity lost there--for perfectly understandable, and perfectly valid, reasons!

    But rather than concluding that it's complete folly to compare the two very different approaches, I think that's exactly why you SHOULD compare them. To recognize the trade-offs each option brings, and to recognize the added value each option offers. The fact is, if you want a good boat, and aren't in a rush, building one yourself might be a great option--because YOU don't have to make a livelihood out of it, you can keep (money) costs very very low.

    For those who are time-rich and cash poor, it makes a lot of sense. For those who lean the opposite way, hiring a pro build makes a lot of sense. No "right" or "wrong" about it, just "how it is" from what I can tell.

    If someone wanted to buy me that 12 1/2 for my birthday, I wouldn't object.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  10. #10
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    Oct 2017
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    Berkeley, CA
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    If one has the cash, I reckon a used glass Doughdish or CCS 12 1/2 will hold its value as well as any boat.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    That’s driven by what it costs to build and market. Some people can and will buy such a boat.
    Those of us who’d fell and mill trees from our homestead, scavenge the roadside for wheel weights for ballast, stitch the sails, etc. won’t.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    I live and sail about one mile from the original owners of the first 4 Buzzards Bay Boys Boats (Robert Emmons at Tobeys Island, Head of Buzzards Bay). The boats were a delight for young sailors to learn to sail and they caught on, as you all know. The head of Buzzards Bay became the Home Ground for the boats becoming known as the H 12 (12.5?) . The first ones were build by HMC and later Cape Cod Shipbuilding and Quincy Adams. There were hundreds around Cape Cod and elsewhere. By the 1970's and 80's many of those original boats which had survived (storms, etc) were in need of repair and many were repaired. Quite a number of local small yards would take on the task of refurbishing old 12 1/2's but that got pricey. Eventually Edey and Duff Co. at Mattapoisett, Mass. a company which was early in producing foam core traditional boats in glass, boats which actually looked and felt pretty good (Stone Horse) expanded the business into some other traditional types and began producing the DoughDish (the nick-name for the original 12 1/2's). They were determined to be essentially equivalent to the original boats so could sail boat for boat in races with them so many original boats were replaced over time by Doughdishes.
    As many know there were also other variants, Cape Cod Ship 12 1/2's, Havens and Somes Sound boats (?) Anyway, the originals are mostly replaced now by plastic replicas and they continue to be family keepsakes being passed from generation to generation.
    Interestingly, the Bullseye, an Marconi rigged variant, also became popular from Cape Cod Ship. I believe they can sail/race with the 12 1/2's as well but, by contrast, I recently bought one for a friend locally for $1500, sails and all.
    Not sure I could justify $30-50K for a Doughdish, though. Man's got to have his priorities.

    By the way- is there anyone out there who has ever swamped a 12 1/2? Doughdish? Etc? The only ones I ever saw sunk were swamped in a big storm while at moorings. Possibly better for them on the bottom- retrieve later. I can remember going looking for the floorboards, seats and oars...

  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCaird View Post
    I live and sail about one mile from the original owners of the first 4 Buzzards Bay Boys Boats (Robert Emmons at Tobeys Island, Head of Buzzards Bay). The boats were a delight for young sailors to learn to sail and they caught on, as you all know. The head of Buzzards Bay became the Home Ground for the boats becoming known as the H 12 (12.5?) . The first ones were build by HMC and later Cape Cod Shipbuilding and Quincy Adams. There were hundreds around Cape Cod and elsewhere. By the 1970's and 80's many of those original boats which had survived (storms, etc) were in need of repair and many were repaired. Quite a number of local small yards would take on the task of refurbishing old 12 1/2's but that got pricey. Eventually Edey and Duff Co. at Mattapoisett, Mass. a company which was early in producing foam core traditional boats in glass, boats which actually looked and felt pretty good (Stone Horse) expanded the business into some other traditional types and began producing the DoughDish (the nick-name for the original 12 1/2's). They were determined to be essentially equivalent to the original boats so could sail boat for boat in races with them so many original boats were replaced over time by Doughdishes.
    As many know there were also other variants, Cape Cod Ship 12 1/2's, Havens and Somes Sound boats (?) Anyway, the originals are mostly replaced now by plastic replicas and they continue to be family keepsakes being passed from generation to generation.
    Interestingly, the Bullseye, an Marconi rigged variant, also became popular from Cape Cod Ship. I believe they can sail/race with the 12 1/2's as well but, by contrast, I recently bought one for a friend locally for $1500, sails and all.
    Not sure I could justify $30-50K for a Doughdish, though. Man's got to have his priorities.

    By the way- is there anyone out there who has ever swamped a 12 1/2? Doughdish? Etc? The only ones I ever saw sunk were swamped in a big storm while at moorings. Possibly better for them on the bottom- retrieve later. I can remember going looking for the floorboards, seats and oars...

    The only 12-1/2 you'll see swamped is one that's missing its keel. 750 pounds of lead tends to make sure that what goes down, stays down.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  14. #14
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    I sail a Somes Sound but it's a close relative of the H12. I don't think that a capsize is likely for one of these boats unless it were sailing around the Horn, I suppose. But a swamping could be done. And a partial swamping is within the realm of real possibility. They don't have a whole lot of freeboard and there's something about the hull shape that invites big boat wakes aboard. I've not had my boat ship a lot of water but have seen enough to know that it's possible. When caught abeam of a large steep wake, the boat will roll significantly. It doesn't take much imagination to see the cockpit coaming acting like a scoop to one of those wakes.

    Boat induced wakes aside, my boat's a wet ride when beating into a good breeze. Where I sail this is mostly a nuisance as the wind waves are small. Out in bigger water, she'd be even wetter. Still nothing a bucket can't cope with though.

    Jeff

  15. #15
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    On Off Center Harbor Alec Brainard has an account of swamping a Watch Hull 15, a bigger cousin of the 12 1/2, and sailing it to safety while still pretty full of water. Dunno if a 12 1/2 would do the same.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: CL Find: Seattle: Herreshoff 12-1/2 ('glass)

    Swamping: OK, will see if I can find Alec Brainard's account of swamping a Watch Hill 15.

    Meanwhile, I am still asking if anyone here has or has seen a 12 1/2 swamp while sailing. I know we can all get wet beating to windward in a chop in a 12 1/2 or a derivative. I don't know if the centerboard variants are equivalent stability-wise although I have not heard anything contrary.

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