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Thread: More Republican Party Fracturing

  1. #71
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Nope. It’s sloughing off the electables for the fringe. Boatbum will still support the crazies though. They lose 5-10%. The hardcore stay.
    If they lose 10% of the vote, they lose the House for the foreseeable future, probably the Senate as well, and certainly the presidency.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  2. #72
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Is THIS what someone meant when they said - not fracturing but consolidating?

    If so... what happens to all the people who won't go along as the party sets its feet solidly on the express down-escalator?

    It’s Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Party Now

    Steve King, the Republican former congressman from Iowa, must feel robbed. Two years ago, he was stripped of all his committee assignments after asking, in an interview with The New York Times, “White nationalist, white supremacist, Western civilization — how did that language become offensive?” The Republican Party threw its weight behind King’s primary challenger, and he was whisked off the national stage, no longer to embarrass colleagues who prefer that racist demagogy be performed with enough finesse to allow for plausible deniability.

    Since then, standards have changed. Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, Republican of Georgia, is every bit as bigoted as King, and 10 times as unhinged. By now, you’ve surely heard her theory that California wildfires might have been caused by a space laser controlled by Jewish bankers. That wasn’t Greene’s first foray into anti-Semitism; in 2018 she shared a notorious white nationalist video in which a Holocaust denier claimed that “Zionist supremacists have schemed to promote immigration and miscegenation.”

    Recently, Greene met with a far-right British commentator, Katie Hopkins, who has described migrants as “cockroaches” and said she doesn’t care if they die. Greene told her, “I would love to trade you for some of our white people here that have no appreciation for our country.” She described the results of the 2018 midterms as “an Islamic invasion of our government.” Greene endorsed calls for the execution of prominent Democrats and agreed with Facebook posts claiming that the Parkland and Sandy Hook school shootings were hoaxes. She harassed one of the Parkland massacre’s young survivors.

    As it happens, this week House Republicans are seeking to punish a prominent woman in their ranks — but it’s not Greene. A big chunk of the House Republican caucus is reportedly trying to oust Liz Cheney of Wyoming from leadership because she voted to impeach Donald Trump for inciting the Jan. 6 insurrection.

    Kevin McCarthy, the Republican House leader, is meeting with Greene, but it’s far from clear that he’ll act against her, because she represents much of their party’s base. When The New Yorker’s Charles Bethea met a group of Greene’s local supporters last year, they were generally familiar with QAnon, and several agreed that Democrats are controlled by Satan. There’s a reason Kelly Loeffler, who needed to get out the pro-Trump vote, touted Greene’s endorsement when she was trying to hold on to her Georgia Senate seat.

    Some decent Republicans imagine they’re in a battle for their party’s soul. Representative Adam Kinzinger, who like Cheney voted to impeach Trump, recently started a PAC devoted to fighting the forces that led to Greene’s rise and the Capitol rampage. “The time has come to choose what kind of party we will be,” he said in an introductory video. The thing is, Republicans already have chosen.
    Just look at the party’s state affiliates. On Jan. 4, the Arizona G.O.P. retweeted a “Stop the Steal” activist who’d pronounced himself willing to “give my life” to overturn the election. Said the party’s official account: “He is. Are you?” An Arizona lawmaker has since introduced a bill that would let the Legislature, controlled by Republicans, override the presidential vote of the state’s increasingly Democratic citizenry.

    The Oregon Republican Party approved a resolution suggesting that the Capitol siege was a “false flag” attack. The Texas Republican Party has adopted the QAnon slogan “We are the storm” as its motto, though it insists there’s no connection. The chairman of Wyoming’s Republican Party, who attended Trump’s rally on Jan. 6, said he might be open to secession.

    Greene is not the outlier in this party. Kinzinger is....

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/o...sultPosition=1
    I guess that makes their followers stormtroopers. Great!

    People like Mr Bean argued that there was going to be a coup prior to Biden's inauguration. Many of us thought this unlikely, over the top. But seeing idiots like these Q freaks actually elected, to anything mainstream at all, let alone Congress, really makes me wonder whether there isn't a civil war underway anyway. I think the impeachment trial may be a watershed moment - if that's actually a thing. I think that if Trump is not convicted, the mad people are not tossed and the rioters not gaoled, America as we know her, may be doomed. But maybe that's over the top too?
    Rick

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  3. #73
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    It's a pattern, right? Many idiots with guns have gone into public places with machine guns and randomly killed loads of people, including small children but still any FWIT can still walk into a glorified supermarket in many parts of the US and buy a machine gun and a trolley full of ammunition. A mob of similar FWITs breaks into the houses of federal parliament and threatens the lives of parliamentarians, and kill a cop, and there are no actions taken against those who fired up the FWITs.

    In every other democracy on the planet, these actions would have led to root and branch recriminations and serious reforms.
    Rick

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  4. #74
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    The lead on this NYT story is a local one for me. Fellow who was last elections R candidate for governor bails. Lifelong R. Changes his registration. This is not an example of 'fracturing'?

    An Emboldened Extremist Wing Flexes Its Power in a Leaderless G.O.P.

    Knute Buehler, who led Oregon’s Republican ticket as the candidate for governor in 2018, watched with growing alarm in recent weeks as Republicans around the nation challenged the reliability of the presidential election results.

    Then he watched the Jan. 6 siege at the United States Capitol in horror. And then, to his astonishment, Republican Party officials in his own state embraced the conspiracy theory that the attack was actually a left-wing “false flag” plot to frame Trump supporters.

    The night after his party’s leadership passed a formal resolution promoting the false flag theory, Mr. Buehler cracked open a local microbrew and filed to change his registration from Republican to independent. “It was very painful,” he said.

    His unhappy exit highlighted one facet of the upheaval now underway in the G.O.P.: It has become a leaderless party, with veterans like Mr. Buehler stepping away, luminaries like Senator Rob Portman of Ohio retiring, far-right extremists like Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia building a brand on a web of dangerous conspiracy theories, and pro-Trump Republicans at war with other conservatives who want to look beyond the former president to the future.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/u...sultPosition=1

    Both parties have their extremists . Before this group there was the Tea Party. In the end the Tea party did not prevent the GOP from taking the White House, Senate or Congress. I recall hearing that the Democrats were in such disarray that they might not win a presidential election for decades after George W got elected. I don't think it will rip apart the party any more than AOC pushing the Democrats more to the left. The crazies that stormed the capitol are such small numbers that they do not represent the GOP or even the average Trumper.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Really? So which Democrat members of Congress developed their political ideology from the bad guys in Marvel Comics?
    Rick

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Both parties have their extremists .
    Sorry, it won't wash. The left did not have a presidential candidate who refused to accept the people's will, who lied continuously about how he didn't really lose the election, and who still claims without a shred of evidence that it was stolen. The Democrats did not have a presidential candidate who incited his followers to try and violently overthrow American democracy. A sizeable faction of the Republican party now is composed of supporters of violent sedition. We can argue about how many, but polls indicate it's about 20% that will admit it; hardly insignificant. I'm normally more polite than this, but while 'both parties have extremists' has often been true, right now it's utter bullsh!t, a lie in defense of traitors. You can take that false equivalence and stuff it.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 02-02-2021 at 09:09 PM.
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Healthcare for all is an extremist position.
    Expecting law enforcement to perform to a certain standard is an extremist position.
    The abolition of slave wages is an extremist position.
    Not raping the planet for a buck is an extremist position.

    Commie ideals. All of them.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dryfoot View Post
    Healthcare for all is an extremist position.
    Expecting law enforcement to perform to a certain standard is an extremist position.
    The abolition of slave wages is an extremist position.
    Not raping the planet for a buck is an extremist position.

    Commie ideals. All of them.
    Yes. In particular, that last one is certainly viewed as extreme by many posters over on the Capitalism v. Progressivism thread.

    Tom
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    lie, lie, lie my darling! Let your little fascist apologizing Hitler lover out!

    you stupid fool. The conventional GOP ate the tea tards for breakfast. You dolts paid for some nice mansions.
    Yup, 70 million Quislings,or fools, or both.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing


    Democracy or the white supremacist mob: which side is the Republican party on?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...publican-party
    David G
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  11. #81
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Yup, 70 million Quislings, or fools, or both.
    Too harsh. There are a lot of people who weren't paying very close attention, and voted for Trump because he seemed a little better than what they imagined the alternatives would be. Maybe that qualifies as 'fools', maybe not. But still - 20 million Quislings or fools is WAY too many..
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Too harsh. There are a lot of people who weren't paying very close attention, and voted for Trump because he seemed a little better than what they imagined the alternatives would be. Maybe that qualifies as 'fools', maybe not. But still - 20 million Quislings or fools is WAY too many..
    I don't think that's very harsh. If you hadn't watched Trump's actions for four years and voted for him in 2020, you were knowingly supporting the general divisiveness, ineptitude, racism, misogyny, xenophobia, authoritarian behavior, and graft of Trump and his administration.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  13. #83
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Sorry, it won't wash. The left did not have a presidential candidate who refused to accept the people's will, who lied continuously about how he didn't really lose the election, and who still claims without a shred of evidence that it was stolen. The Democrats did not have a presidential candidate who incited his followers to try and violently overthrow American democracy. A sizeable faction of the Republican party now is composed of supporters of violent sedition. We can argue about how many, but polls indicate it's about 20% that will admit it; hardly insignificant. I'm normally more polite than this, but while 'both parties have extremists' has often been true, right now it's utter bullsh!t, a lie in defense of traitors. You can take that false equivalence and stuff it.
    Not referring to Trump, but the "Extremist Wing" referenced in the article that David G pasted.

    I hope you are Ok if I "stuff it" later though. So 20% of the Republican's polled admit they are in favor of violent sedition? I find that hard to believe, but could you provide me with the source for that poll? You are usually a data-driven person, so I am open to being convinced of this.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Not referring to Trump, but the "Extremist Wing" referenced in the article that David G pasted.

    I hope you are Ok if I "stuff it" later though. So 20% of the Republican's polled admit they are in favor of violent sedition? I find that hard to believe, but could you provide me with the source for that poll? You are usually a data-driven person, so I am open to being convinced of this.
    https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/co...-chaos-capitol

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    That looked confusing. However, it becomes apparent that each colour totals to 100%. A slightly odd way of presenting the data.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Am I right that this is an on line poll and that respondents can self-select?

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Am I right that this is an on line poll and that respondents can self-select?
    No, that's not correct.
    Methodology: YouGov polled 1,448 registered voters, including 1,397 who were aware of the events at the Capitol. The survey was conducted on January 6, 2021 between 5:17 p.m. and 5:42 p.m. Eastern time. The survey was carried out through YouGov Direct. Data is weighted on age, gender, education level, political affiliation and ethnicity to be nationally representative of adults in the United States. The margin of error is approximately 3.3% for the overall sample.
    If you'd prefer, Ipsos Reid did a snap poll also which found similar results, but as their sample size was smaller it had a 5% confidence interval - so I showed the YouGov instead because the methodology was tighter.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    No, that's not correct. If you'd prefer, Ipsos Reid did a snap poll also which found similar results, but as their sample size was smaller it had a 5% confidence interval - so I showed the YouGov instead because the methodology was tighter.
    But Tom, that isn't responsive to the point Boatbum raised. Surely you can provide some other reason for him to disbelieve this poll, if you try hard enough.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    No, that's not correct. If you'd prefer, Ipsos Reid did a snap poll also which found similar results, but as their sample size was smaller it had a 5% confidence interval - so I showed the YouGov instead because the methodology was tighter.
    Nope that's good enough for me. I'm satisfied. Hard to believe it is that many, but the numbers are the numbers.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by pandelume View Post
    But Tom, that isn't responsive to the point Boatbum raised. Surely you can provide some other reason for him to disbelieve this poll, if you try hard enough.
    Then he’ll just say it doesn’t matter. It’s a tried and true Republican time wasting technique.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Nope that's good enough for me. I'm satisfied. Hard to believe it is that many, but the numbers are the numbers.
    Well, fair enough.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by pandelume View Post
    Well, fair enough.
    Yes.

    And thanks for that, Boatbum.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  23. #93
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Nope that's good enough for me. I'm satisfied. Hard to believe it is that many, but the numbers are the numbers.
    Indeed. It's worse than I thought. 29% of Republicans 'strongly support' and 16% 'somewhat support' a violent attack on the US Capitol to overturn the election results?? That's a problem.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Indeed. It's worse than I thought. 29% of Republicans 'strongly support' and 16% 'somewhat support' a violent attack on the US Capitol to overturn the election results?? That's a problem.
    The poll I found doing my googling was very early - the interviews occurred on the day of the riot itself.

    It is possible that as awareness grew and more reporting occurred, those %s shifted. One would hope.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    I hope they've shifted. As always - some of us try to let the facts drive our opinions. None of us are perfect at it. Some of us work hard at letting our opinions shape the 'facts'. We're all works in progress.

    I've got time for those working on progress. I have little patience for those who appear to be doubling down on ignorance or spin.
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Indeed. It's worse than I thought. 29% of Republicans 'strongly support' and 16% 'somewhat support' a violent attack on the US Capitol to overturn the election results?? That's a problem.
    They numbers are the numbers, but I can honestly say, I don't know anyone that thinks like that. Some feel that the election was manipulated, but all feel that a peaceful transition of power is essential and do not condone violence.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    I don't know anyone who thinks that either - or, to be accurate, I haven't talked to anyone in any depth who both supports Mr. Trump and admitted to me that they supported the attack on the Capitol. Tiny unrepresentative sample, however, in a very blue city in the bluish state of Minnesota, where folks tend not to have much patience with extremism.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    You could have found them at the Alibi in Lakeville, if you wanted.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    No doubt.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    They numbers are the numbers, but I can honestly say, I don't know anyone that thinks like that. Some feel that the election was manipulated, but all feel that a peaceful transition of power is essential and do not condone violence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I don't know anyone who thinks that either - or, to be accurate, I haven't talked to anyone in any depth who both supports Mr. Trump and admitted to me that they supported the attack on the Capitol. Tiny unrepresentative sample, however, in a very blue city in the bluish state of Minnesota, where folks tend not to have much patience with extremism.
    Might I note that neither of you lives in Eastern Oregon, Texas, rural Alabama, Oklahoma, The Mitten, Wyoming, or suchlike.
    David G
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    They numbers are the numbers, but I can honestly say, I don't know anyone that thinks like that. Some feel that the election was manipulated, but all feel that a peaceful transition of power is essential and do not condone violence.
    Ask the ones you know what they believe the process is to respond to election manipulation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Might I note that neither of you lives in Eastern Oregon, Texas, rural Alabama, Oklahoma, The Mitten, Wyoming, or suchlike.
    That bar is about 20 miles from Keith (covid scofflaw bar where some 1/6 terrorists from MN hung out). There was at least one rioter from Portland. Being a lone Republican in a sea of blue might make them more susceptible to online radicalization, not less.

    I don’t know anyone, personally, who’s admitted it. But I know where I’d look to find people that did.
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 02-03-2021 at 06:12 PM.

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    Column: The GOP's civil war is just beginning, and the fighting will get worse before it gets better

    Many years ago, as a young foreign correspondent, I went to Beirut to cover the Lebanese civil war. On the wall of the newsroom where I worked, someone had posted a running count of how many truces had come and gone. “This ceasefire is #35,” it read. “Next ceasefire is #36.”I’ve been thinking about those scrawled reminders as I’ve watched the Republican Party’s internecine struggles after the chaotic departure of Donald Trump.

    The party has descended into a state of virtual civil war between unrepentant loyalists to former President Trump and those impatient to cast off the chaos of the last four years and begin a post-Trump era. And as in Lebanon, the hostilities promise to be a prolonged series of flare-ups, with neither side willing to permanently lay down arms.

    Pro-Trump forces have won the early skirmishes. In the Senate, most Republicans have made it clear that they intend to acquit Trump in his impending impeachment trial. In Arizona, the state Republican Party censured its own GOP governor for certifying that Joe Biden had won the presidential election there.

    The next battles will be in the House of Representatives, where Trumpites have demanded that the thoroughly conservative Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming be expelled from the GOP leadership because she voted for Trump’s impeachment. And congressional Republicans are split over how to handle Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, a supporter of the pro-Trump QAnon cult, for her embrace of conspiracy theories including the claim that the Sandy Hook and Parkland school shootings were hoaxes.

    Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky has denounced Greene’s “loony lies and conspiracy theories,” calling them “cancer for the Republican Party.” But few of the party’s leaders in the House have taken a clear stand on the frightening views of the congresswoman from QAnon.

    Anti-Trump Republicans are in the minority so far — but they are standing their ground, raising money, and preparing for battles to come. One, Rep. Adam Kinzinger of Illinois, has founded a political action committee to campaign for post-Trump Republicans.

    “Would we lose the Proud Boys? Maybe. I’m fine with that,” he told my colleague Jennifer Haberkorn.

    The main battlefield in the war is likely to become the ballot box, veteran Republican strategist Whit Ayres told me.

    “The party is split between a governing faction and a populist faction,” he said. “The populist faction was there before Trump. They aren’t going away. They’ve become a dominant force in Republican primaries. They aren’t dominant among elected officials — but they may be, eventually, if they succeed in winning elections.”

    “I don’t think it’s going to be resolved by 2022,” Ayres added. “It’s going to take until at least 2024. You’re going to have to go through a presidential cycle.”

    Every political party faces a reckoning after it loses a presidential election. But the debate Republicans are holding is angrier and more dangerous than most, partly due to problems of their own making.

    In 2016, Trump looked like a political genius for turning out voters who would have stayed home for a less colorful candidate. But under Trump, the GOP became a narrow, shrinking party, dependent on that base of angry, almost entirely white conservative voters, many of them aging. Trump believed he could win reelection mainly by turning out record numbers of his base, and he came close. He won 10 million more votes than in 2016, but moderate voters including women defected to Biden, denying Trump both the popular vote and the electoral college votes he needed.

    Still, the base he built is now the dominant force in the Republican electorate, especially in primary elections — and GOP officeholders know it.

    “The vast majority of Republican voters, volunteers and donors are no longer loyal to the GOP,” Rep. Greene said last month in what may be her least delusional statement. “Their loyalty now lies with Donald J. Trump.”

    That’s an exaggeration; only about half of Republican voters have told pollsters that they feel more loyalty to Trump than to the party. But it’s still enough to give the former president a handy way to remain influential over the next four years — by offering to campaign for GOP candidates, including Trump loyalists challenging incumbents like Cheney in primaries.

    But dependence on Trump’s base could prove disastrous for the party. In conservative House districts, Republicans will still compete for votes by out-Trumping one another. But in statewide and presidential elections, where candidates must appeal to broader audiences, the former president’s legacy is beginning to look like a liability. Since Jan. 6, thousands of voters have changed their registrations from Republican to independent..........


    https://www.latimes.com/politics/sto...just-beginning
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing





    Ex-GOP congressman suggests many Republicans are discussing whether to form a new anti-Trump party


    Former Rep. Charlie Dent (R—PA) revealed he and other Republicans have begun discussing whether to form a “new party or a new faction” in the wake of “ugly populism that we’ve witnessed the last four years under President Trump” in a new interview.

    Speaking with CNN on Saturday, the former GOP lawmaker and longtime critic of former President Donald Trump shared how he had recently participated in a summit in which the idea of conservatives “united around core principles like democracy” forming their own party had been discussed.


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1798684.html
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    27,528

    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    'The Bull Moose Party' has a ring - and precedent - to it.

    AFA 'do I know anyone' talking civil war/armed insurrection? You betcha. Not leaders, though - followers. Waiting for 'the sign'.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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