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Thread: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

  1. #1
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    Default Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    When I first saw Michael Storer's Viola 14 sailing canoe (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-Sailing-Canoe) I thought that it is a very appealing and versatile design. I was wondering if there was any of my own designs with comparable characteristics. The closest one would be the Flywood two sheet rowboat, but it hasn't quite the stability of the lovely Viola 14. As I always wanted to come up with an asymmetrical version of my Flywood design including a small transom, this was the perfect chance to accept the challenge. It took quite a while until I finalized this new design, but now it is ready for presentation.

    This is the scale model of the hull with a first mock-up of the rig:





    Upon further considerations I decided to emulate most of the clever features of the well thought out Viola 14, namely the rig (6,3 mē balanced lug), the dagger board, the rudder and also the floatation compartments. The hull however is different in many aspects except for stability -- both boats are very close in that respect.

    LOA: 476 cm (15' 7")
    Beam: 106 cm (42")
    Displacement at 10 cm (4") draft: 135 kg (300 lbs)
    Displacement at 13.5 cm (5.3") draft: 225 kg (500 lbs)







    Last edited by flo-mo; 01-16-2021 at 07:14 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    The hull is made of two sheets of 4 mm marine grade okoume plywood (244 x 122 cm).




    Another sheet of this plywood is needed for the interior structure:







    Last edited by flo-mo; 01-16-2021 at 07:16 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Very nice as always.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Wonderful. Looks really nice! Especially like the small transom for a simple rudder setup.

    Do you plan on making the offsets available?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Nice boat, and I bet it would be a heck of allot of fun, but the sheet layout, cutting and the amount of epoxy needed to put it all back together really blew me away!
    I haven't the foggiest how I'd manage to get that layout quite right. I like her very much but I wouldn't want to build her.

    67 sq. ft. of sail sounds like a bit much for her, you reckon she'll stand up to that? I think you might find use for the built in flotation!
    Are you going to build her? I'd be interested in hearing about how she works out.

    Anyway, like you I was intrigued with the idea of a two sheet sailing canoe and so simply designed my own. I just finished the model.
    I call her Dart.

    SAM_8929.jpg

    Just a simple "three plank outrigger canoe". I figure an outrigger is probably the best way to make a canoe carry sail.
    No computer stuff to design her, just lots of scribbles in my notebook and three preliminary cardboard models to figure out the molds and flair.
    Flat bottomed, but she is so narrow I don't think it will be a problem.
    No epoxy needed just simple chine-log, nail and glue assembly. Two sheets does everything, but she hasn't any built in flotation. I generally use 2" foam strapped in along the sides for that, or chunks of foam cut to fit in the ends, from old dock floats I find in the marshes along a local lake.


    SAM_8941.jpg

    I stuck on a 52 sq. ft. sprit rig mostly because I've been meaning to try this rig, and because I wanted a minimum of spars in the way.
    I figure the mast and sprit (both of which are 10 feet long ) can be stored on the cross beams when not in use, making her clean for paddling use.

    SAM_8933.jpg

    I went with a Bolger style clip-on lee board rather than a pivoting Michalak type, or a dagger board, because I envision paddling her as much as sailing her, and I didn't want to degrade paddle performance at all.

    I think I can build her for about 150 bucks, so I reckon I'll build her next month, after I finish my current project.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    By the by, don't you think you should raise the daggerboard trunk?
    It looks a mite low to me, I figure capsize recovery is a real consideration for her!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    I like the looks of this canoe very much. Actually I'd prefer it with the original single leeboard, which could be easily mounted to one of the floatation chambers. Having seen how well the concept works in Hugh Horton's Bufflehead design and a couple of Meade Gougeon's variants, I think it would be an excellent detail in this canoe, making it much better at navigating shallow water.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Thank you all for your comments -- very much appreciated.


    I am considering to eventually provide offsets for the panels.


    I understand that the cramped arrangement of the panels is not for everybody, but for me it is just fun trying to achieve what almost seems impossible -- to make maximum use of the plywood and still create a sensible boat design. Not always do I succeed.




    Yes, the RSS 6,3 mē sail might be a bit much, but it seems to work for the Viola 14 sailing canoe and the three reef point help to adapt to various conditions. There is also the RSS 5 mē lugsail with two reef points for Storer's Kombi sailing canoe, which might be a better fit.


    I tried to make the design as versatile as possible so compromises are inevitable.
    With the rig down you can row her from the middle seat or use a double paddle, there are two seats for two persons using a single paddle plus the transom can take a trolling motor. The position for the rower and paddler won't be optimal but it should still work decently.
    The daggerboard trunk is at the same height as the middle seat (24 cm from the bottom) -- going further up will make rowing a problem.


    Of course, depending on your priorities you could change the interior layout.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    The two Really Simple Sails balanced lug rigs:

    RSS Kombi Sailing Canoe Lug Sail

    RSS Viola Sailing Canoe Lug Sail




    These are three sailing canoes I used as reference for developing my own design:

    Viola 14 Sailing Canoe (14' x 40") https://duckworks.com/viola-14-sailin...
    Kombi Paddle/Sail Canoe (15' 7" x 34") https://duckworks.com/kombi-paddle-sa...
    Waterlust Sailing Canoe (17' x 36") https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/c...





  10. #10
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    The slight asymmetry and small transom of the Flywood make it the most appealing of the group to my eye.

    Fine work Flo-Mo!

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Etdbob View Post
    Nice boat, and I bet it would be a heck of allot of fun, but the sheet layout, cutting and the amount of epoxy needed to put it all back together really blew me away!
    I haven't the foggiest how I'd manage to get that layout quite right. I like her very much but I wouldn't want to build her.

    67 sq. ft. of sail sounds like a bit much for her, you reckon she'll stand up to that? I think you might find use for the built in flotation!
    Are you going to build her? I'd be interested in hearing about how she works out.

    Anyway, like you I was intrigued with the idea of a two sheet sailing canoe and so simply designed my own. I just finished the model.
    I call her Dart.

    SAM_8929.jpg

    Just a simple "three plank outrigger canoe". I figure an outrigger is probably the best way to make a canoe carry sail.
    No computer stuff to design her, just lots of scribbles in my notebook and three preliminary cardboard models to figure out the molds and flair.
    Flat bottomed, but she is so narrow I don't think it will be a problem.
    No epoxy needed just simple chine-log, nail and glue assembly. Two sheets does everything, but she hasn't any built in flotation. I generally use 2" foam strapped in along the sides for that, or chunks of foam cut to fit in the ends, from old dock floats I find in the marshes along a local lake.


    SAM_8941.jpg

    I stuck on a 52 sq. ft. sprit rig mostly because I've been meaning to try this rig, and because I wanted a minimum of spars in the way.
    I figure the mast and sprit (both of which are 10 feet long ) can be stored on the cross beams when not in use, making her clean for paddling use.

    SAM_8933.jpg

    I went with a Bolger style clip-on lee board rather than a pivoting Michalak type, or a dagger board, because I envision paddling her as much as sailing her, and I didn't want to degrade paddle performance at all.

    I think I can build her for about 150 bucks, so I reckon I'll build her next month, after I finish my current project.
    How about a few more details? Basic size, ama info, etc. She looks neat!

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by flo-mo View Post
    Thank you all for your comments -- very much appreciated.


    I am considering to eventually provide offsets for the panels.


    I understand that the cramped arrangement of the panels is not for everybody, but for me it is just fun trying to achieve what almost seems impossible -- to make maximum use of the plywood and still create a sensible boat design. Not always do I succeed.




    Yes, the RSS 6,3 mē sail might be a bit much, but it seems to work for the Viola 14 sailing canoe and the three reef point help to adapt to various conditions. There is also the RSS 5 mē lugsail with two reef points for Storer's Kombi sailing canoe, which might be a better fit.


    I tried to make the design as versatile as possible so compromises are inevitable.
    With the rig down you can row her from the middle seat or use a double paddle, there are two seats for two persons using a single paddle plus the transom can take a trolling motor. The position for the rower and paddler won't be optimal but it should still work decently.
    The daggerboard trunk is at the same height as the middle seat (24 cm from the bottom) -- going further up will make rowing a problem.


    Of course, depending on your priorities you could change the interior layout.
    The worst part of this is, I have some spars and foils that would fit this boat PERFECTLY, and I sure do like sailing canoes...

    Your design page is so, so hard to look at. I need a couple free months and a stack of plywood sheets!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Etdbob View Post
    67 sq. ft. of sail sounds like a bit much for her, you reckon she'll stand up to that? I think you might find use for the built in flotation!
    Are you going to build her? I'd be interested in hearing about how she works out.
    If the stability is the same as on the Viola canoe, 6.7 m2 works fine if you are prepared to hike the boat. Hiking straps to be put on both sides of the boat and you are putting your feet under the strap on the opposite side of the boat. The Viola is meant to be sailed sitting on the side decks and so is the Flywood Sailing Canoe, I assume. If you want to sail the boat sitting in the boat, the smaller sail for the Kombi canoe will likely work better.

    The sail has 3 reefs and the smallest reef reduces sail to a post stamp size. I know the Viola canoe and its lug rig very well (I built the prototype and have sailed the boat for a couple of seasons now, also camp cruising and doing raid type of events in a all type of weather conditions).

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by flo-mo View Post
    Upon further considerations I decided to emulate most of the clever features of the well thought out Viola 14, namely the rig (6,3 mē balanced lug), the dagger board, the rudder and also the floatation compartments. The hull however is different in many aspects except for stability -- both boats are very close in that respect.
    I like what you have done. The hull is indeed very different. The Viola uses a five hull panel design (flat bottom panel with a bilge panel and side panel on each side). The main difference, I think, are the aft bottom sections where the Viola is very flat (dish shaped) and the Flywood has tucked in bottom panels creating a V-shape.

    The Viola has much a dinghy sailing shape and was created as a very light weight minimalist 1-person sailing dinghy (paddling was not considered at all really). This one appears a bit more canoe like still (at least to my eyes). With the three thwarts, the canoe will likely also be more versatile (hence the Kombi design that is more paddling canoe like).

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Etdbob View Post
    By the by, don't you think you should raise the daggerboard trunk?
    It looks a mite low to me, I figure capsize recovery is a real consideration for her!
    The Viola has a similarly low daggerboard trunk. Works fine in practice. The side tanks help much during capsize recoveries. The Viola does not come up completely dry, but the tanks nicely center the water and the self bailer that I have installed removes the water pretty quick.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Rob -
    Darts dimensions and assembly is as follows -

    Cut two sheets of ply into six 16" "planks".
    Cut three 4" wide strips for butt blocks off the end of one 16" wide "plank"

    Now butt block the ply pieces together for two 16' and one 15' The butt blocks must be a little short to allow for internal chines and wales.
    The 16' planks are cut on the ends at 60 degrees. The 15' is saved for the flat bottom.

    Assembly is standard nail and glue with internal chine logs, bent around three temp molds.
    A temp center mold is 15" wide at the bottom, 23" wide at the top, and about 15-1/4 tall. This mold is placed aft of the center side butt blocks, so it's 2" aft of center.

    The fore and aft temp molds are 11" wide on bottom and 18" wide on top. They are placed 4 feet fore and aft of center.

    There is a very slight twist to the side planks but nothing that will complicate assy.

    And that's about it. For an ama I was thinking 8 to 10 feet of 4" light pvc drain pipe, because I have it laying around and the "Shed" outrigger has used this successfully.

    I imagine the hiking planks can't really be closer to the hull than 16" or 18" to the sides on centerline, or else the forward paddler will be hitting them.
    This places them a bit far from the hull sides for the stern paddler I imagine, but never having seen an outrigger canoe in real life, much less used one, I'm guessing .

    This boat should only run about 150 bucks, if a feller makes his own sail.

    Actually, I'm thinking that I need a light centerline thwart and third crosspiece to the float, to help support the hiking planks. An eight foot span is just to much! Also I'm considering bending the hiking planks into a graceful curve to maintain a constant distance from the hull, but this probably will not work for a boat that must be assembled ever time it's used.

    I'm also considering a slightly steeper stern angle, maybe 65 degrees.

    I'm unsure about how far out to put the float, six feet maybe? The model uses a stick of mahogany I had in my scrap pile for a float, I was thinking of using a small cedar log instead of plastic pipe, as I've got plenty of cedar trees.

    She is just a flat bottomed three plank canoe, but she is designed to be as inexpensive and easily built as possible, and as big as possible given two sheets of ply. I don't think the simple shape will harm such a narrow boat. She should easily exceed hull speed.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Etdbob View Post
    Rob -
    Darts dimensions and assembly is as follows -

    Cut two sheets of ply into six 16" "planks".
    Cut three 4" wide strips for butt blocks off the end of one 16" wide "plank"

    Now butt block the ply pieces together for two 16' and one 15' The butt blocks must be a little short to allow for internal chines and wales.
    The 16' planks are cut on the ends at 60 degrees. The 15' is saved for the flat bottom.

    Assembly is standard nail and glue with internal chine logs, bent around three temp molds.
    A temp center mold is 15" wide at the bottom, 23" wide at the top, and about 15-1/4 tall. This mold is placed aft of the center side butt blocks, so it's 2" aft of center.

    The fore and aft temp molds are 11" wide on bottom and 18" wide on top. They are placed 4 feet fore and aft of center.

    There is a very slight twist to the side planks but nothing that will complicate assy.

    And that's about it. For an ama I was thinking 8 to 10 feet of 4" light pvc drain pipe, because I have it laying around and the "Shed" outrigger has used this successfully.

    I imagine the hiking planks can't really be closer to the hull than 16" or 18" to the sides on centerline, or else the forward paddler will be hitting them.
    This places them a bit far from the hull sides for the stern paddler I imagine, but never having seen an outrigger canoe in real life, much less used one, I'm guessing .

    This boat should only run about 150 bucks, if a feller makes his own sail.

    Actually, I'm thinking that I need a light centerline thwart and third crosspiece to the float, to help support the hiking planks. An eight foot span is just to much! Also I'm considering bending the hiking planks into a graceful curve to maintain a constant distance from the hull, but this probably will not work for a boat that must be assembled ever time it's used.

    I'm also considering a slightly steeper stern angle, maybe 65 degrees.

    I'm unsure about how far out to put the float, six feet maybe? The model uses a stick of mahogany I had in my scrap pile for a float, I was thinking of using a small cedar log instead of plastic pipe, as I've got plenty of cedar trees.

    She is just a flat bottomed three plank canoe, but she is designed to be as inexpensive and easily built as possible, and as big as possible given two sheets of ply. I don't think the simple shape will harm such a narrow boat. She should easily exceed hull speed.
    Thanks! That’s exactly what I was after. Sounds like a fun time. I have as many questions as answers about outrigger canoes, but I look forward to seeing it full size, if you build it and play around.

    Like all the boats dreamed up by folks around here, it would be neat to see it realized!

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    I want to build one of your boats to use exclusively for rowing; leaning to a Flywood, as in a post you said the Romax and Flywood had the most initial stability I think--I will be rowing alone but with a large (85 pound) young hound. I have health issues and worry about tiring suddenly, and want a very small electric motor in case I midjudge my daily energy stores. Do you think this version of the Flywood could be built without the centreboard, so I'd have a boat with transom to mount the little motor? Would a shorter boat fit my needs? I always search around in the forum looking for your posts, it is like a treasure hunt: are there offsets for this Flywood?

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Flywood Two Sheet Sailing Canoe

    Beautiful work (again) flo-mo.

    A thread about your process would be most interesting , personally , I constantly wonder just how you do it !

    Offsets would be great , I would like to make a model of this one in particular.

    Again , just beautiful !

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