Trump is Toast

[Osborne Russell]

Start with a general strike, revolt, peacefully. Shut off the money spigot until we get back a government by the people. If peaceful doesn't work . . . well then. No one has the balls to fight for it, so we will be a very different country in 10-15 years.

I don't think it would work without a breadth of consensus that I find difficult to imagine for the foreseeable future. Sounds like an invitation to a Red takeover that would form into a dictatorship to "keep order" and keep the baby formula on the shelves, gas in the tank, etc. Steve Bannon sez, make my day.

[McMike]

I don't think it would work without a breadth of consensus that I find difficult to imagine for the foreseeable future. Sounds like an invitation to a Red takeover that would form into a dictatorship to "keep order" and keep the baby formula on the shelves, gas in the tank, etc. Steve Bannon sez, make my day.

I agree, anything drastic will have unintended consequences. What's the alternative? What is the likely outcome of staying the course? I don't see justice, I don't see a functional government, I don't see freedom, I don't see equality. There is not one construct that the events and actions of our government points to more than a Neo-feudalism. I know that this isn't new, but after WWII, there was an enlightenment, a movement towards justice, freedom, and equality. I think since 9/11, that we've stalled and have now started to regress. Trump was a symptom of our slide, and an accelerant. He didn't break the system, he found the imperfections, the intentional loopholes, the ins and outs that power has been using for a generation or more to take advantage of the system for their own gain. These loopholes were created by both sides, I see no sides in this within the power structure. We are in deep trouble.

[RFNK]

snafu

[Nicholas Carey]

Start with a general strike, revolt, peacefully. Shut off the money spigot until we get back a government by the people. If peaceful doesn't work . . . well then. No one has the balls to fight for it, so we will be a very different country in 10-15 years.

McMike's not wrong. This paper, Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens, is interesting reading. The authors are Martin Gilens, Professor of Politics at Princeton University and Benjamin I. Page, Gordon S. Fulcher Professor of Decision Making at Northwestern University.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...D4893B382B992B

Here's the ] abstract:

Each of four theoretical traditions in the study of American politics -- which can be characterized as theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy, Economic-Elite Domination, and two types of interest-group pluralism, Majoritarian Pluralism and Biased Pluralism -- offers different predictions about which sets of actors have how much influence over public policy: average citizens; economic elites; and organized interest groups, mass-based or business-oriented.

A great deal of empirical research speaks to the policy influence of one or another set of actors, but until recently it has not been possible to test these contrasting theoretical predictions against each other within a single statistical model. We report on an effort to do so, using a unique data set that includes measures of the key variables for 1,779 policy issues.

Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic-Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.

From the above paper,

By directly pitting the predictions of ideal-type theories against each other within a single statistical model (using a unique data set that includes imperfect but useful measures of the key independent variables for nearly two thousand policy issues), we have been able to produce some striking findings. One is the nearly total failure of “median voter” and other Majoritarian Electoral Democ- racy theories. When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig

[Osborne Russell]

I know that this isn't new, but after WWII, there was an enlightenment, a movement towards justice, freedom, and equality. I think since 9/11, that we've stalled and have now started to regress. Trump was a symptom of our slide, and an accelerant. He didn't break the system, he found the imperfections, the intentional loopholes, the ins and outs that power has been using for a generation or more to take advantage of the system for their own gain. These loopholes were created by both sides, I see no sides in this within the power structure. We are in deep trouble.

Yep. First there was labor law/worker protection/social security/New-Deal-type stuff, the first wave of progressivism, and a fairly strong right-wing reaction, before WW2. The economy then boomed so that stuff went to the back burner, and we turned to criminal justice, privacy, and the environment, the second wave. The right-wing reaction was strong and has been growing, latest high tide mark is the attack on the Capitol, straight-up sedition.

The Dems fell into the attitude of, we're the designated champions, chosen by history, so it's for you, the citizen, to fight for us, rather than for us to fight for you. The working class got shafted by globalism and the Dem Politicians let them slip away, being occupied, as you say, with how to make the whole thing pay off for Dem Politicians. Now the shafted working class are becoming Republicans -- the new kind. Oops!

And then the liberal intelligentsia. At most Republican rallies now, you see huge banners "SAVE AMERICA!". You'll never see that at a Dem rally. They think that the defense of the Republic, plain simple civic duty and unapologetic patriotism, are too fraught with danger to their self-image. They think "SAVE AMERICA!" will get no votes, even as they lose again and again. They're busy trying to rename Abraham Lincoln High School.

[John Smith]

What I can't understand: Has it dawned on any of the Trump supporters that he had the opportunity to pardon those who stormed the Capital, but CHOSE not to?

Has it dawned on them that, in spite promising to do so, he never released his taxes, and/or that being under audit doesn't prevent one form doing so?

Are they aware he cheated on all three of his wives? That he's LOST suits for discrimination, fraud, failing to pay contractors, and misuse of charity funds?

If he WANTS to testify, why does he need a subpoena?

[Tom Montgomery]

^
ALL that Trump's supporters care about is pwning the libs. That is all.

[ron ll]

What I can't understand: Has it dawned on any of the Trump supporters that he had the opportunity to pardon those who stormed the Capital, but CHOSE not to?

Has it dawned on them that, in spite promising to do so, he never released his taxes, and/or that being under audit doesn't prevent one form doing so?

Are they aware he cheated on all three of his wives? That he's LOST suits for discrimination, fraud, failing to pay contractors, and misuse of charity funds?

If he WANTS to testify, why does he need a subpoena?

His supporters don’t KNOW any of that. Fox doesn’t tell them. Then they go to church and have all their lack of information confirmed by the other Fox watchers in the congregation.

[Rich Jones]

The Trump Organization goes on trial tomorrow.
The prosecutor's main witness is Allen Weisselberg.
I wonder if he will mysteriously wake up dead tomorrow.

[jdmcintyre]

Thank you for #949 Nicholas


The following is saying something similar, I think.


QAnon and the plot to break reality. (A series on BBC radio 4 last January that is being repeated.)


The Coming Storm 7. Welcome to the Future


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0bchs4q


In it the narrator says something like, "Read literally the QAnon conspiracy is literally insane but if it is read as a parable about a country governed by a elites for their own benefit and not that of the average citizen then it makes more sense."

[John Smith]

His supporters don’t KNOW any of that. Fox doesn’t tell them. Then they go to church and have all their lack of information confirmed by the other Fox watchers in the congregation.

They must know he did not pardon any of those who stormed the Capital. No?

[ron ll]

They must know he did not pardon any of those who stormed the Capital. No?

They probably don’t know any of them were convicted.

[Gerarddm]

The new Bob Woodward audio book of his 20 interviews with Drumph, and his conclusions thereof, are devastating.

Any yet, I am POSITIVE the Stumps just won't care.

[Durnik]

McMike's not wrong. This paper, Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens, is interesting reading. The authors are Martin Gilens, Professor of Politics at Princeton University and Benjamin I. Page, Gordon S. Fulcher Professor of Decision Making at Northwestern University.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...D4893B382B992B

Here's the ] abstract:



From the above paper,

By directly pitting the predictions of ideal-type theories against each other within a single statistical model (using a unique data set that includes imperfect but useful measures of the key independent variables for nearly two thousand policy issues), we have been able to produce some striking findings. One is the nearly total failure of “median voter” and other Majoritarian Electoral Democ- racy theories. When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig

esp bolded, too true, thanks for that.

Thank you for #949 Nicholas


The following is saying something similar, I think.


QAnon and the plot to break reality. (A series on BBC radio 4 last January that is being repeated.)


The Coming Storm 7. Welcome to the Future


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0bchs4q


In it the narrator says something like, "Read literally the QAnon conspiracy is literally insane but if it is read as a parable about a country governed by a elites for their own benefit and not that of the average citizen then it makes more sense."

didn't make it past the first interviewee.. holy flying sheet, bat man!

but yes.. the parable is the problem. a country, a world, where all - people, too - are but 'capital' used in a game very few benefit from.

[Osborne Russell]

The new Bob Woodward audio book of his 20 interviews with Drumph, and his conclusions thereof, are devastating.

Daddy issues. Not-favorite son, must compete with favorite son, can't win, must lie cheat and steal.

I have opposition like nobody has. And, and that’s okay. I’ve had that all my life. I’ve always had it. And this has been — my whole life has been like this. In the meantime, right now, I’m looking at the White House. Okay? I’m staring right at the walls of the White House.

I understood this to be his way of reminding me he was president.

I get people, they come up with ideas. But, the ideas are mine, Bob. Want to know something? Everything is mine.

[emphasis added]

Bob Woodward, The Trump Tapes (2022)

[TomF]

I'm glad that someone taped the conversations, and understand that it's important that someone must listen to them. But it won't be me. I don't need to listen to close to 2 dozen hours of that whiny, evasive, self-important voice.

[willin woodworks]

The only thing that Trump supporters need is someone to acknowledge their grievances and he does that. He legitimizes their complaints about their crappy lives and lays the blame on "others". Its the "others" that make Trumpism what it is. Its not my fault, it's the "others".
Its the media, and the jews, and blacks and brown people. Everything that they think is wrong with this country can be blamed on the "others".
As long as TFG keeps holding rallies and blaming "them", his ignorant red hat fans will lap it up.

[Hallam]

There are "others" to blame if blame is the right word, and post #949 pretty well sums it up! The "others" , Trump and more significantly, his mostly un named top tier wealth backers are simply adopting a divide and conquer strategy to steer the nation towards their aim in a gradual drift towards neo feudalism where the major corporate entities takes over the role of government. First was privatisation Milton Freedman, trickle down rip off, upward redistribution of the nations wealth. Not satisfied with that crowning success they have a hunger lust for more and while the going seems good they are going for the jugular vein in order to bleed the system of the life blood that remains! All the while they ease their conscience ( if they have one ) with pseudo religiosity and other lollies from the psychological lolly jar of self delusion!

The significance of the 2008 financial crisis should not be underestimated in creating the justified anger and disillusion of the people Trump has tapped into. It's a sick dynamic that the people most harmed by the criminal activities that led to 2008 are now the ones fighting for the Boss and his strategy to own them outright! .......No escape clause! .......Once gone they will never get back what they lost in 2008 and even more so with the currant trajectory if the political forces at play get their way. Can the Democrats really stop the drift while they line their pockets from the same financial wellspring??? ...or are they merely a delay tactic, lulling the wider body politic into a false sense of security that the system is still functional in providing for the needs of the people in the application of the democratic process.

[TomF]

Kash Patel has apparently been given limited immunity to compel him to give grand jury testimony respecting the Mar a Lago documents investigation.

Suspicion is that it's not merely about whether he will say under oath that he'd observed Donny magically de-sanctifying stacks of classified documents, but what Kash's role and knowledge was in selecting documents to take away.

Recall that Patel was a hair's breadth away from being named acting CIA director after the election was lost. Some reports indicate the pushback which prevented that was real concern that Patel had already been rummaging around collecting sensitive documents for Donald, for no good reason. One suggestion is getting docs which could be monetized, and others which could act as a security, to use as blackmail against things like possible prosecutions.

[Hallam]

With the midterms a few days away, will the plug be pulled from the toaster and Trump emerge scathed but un toasted? It will be interesting to see his moves to gain the upper hand among Republican contenders for big ticket job. I'm betting he will be back in the race as all efforts to pin him down for his crimes etc will be thwarted one way or another if Republicans emerge the victor from the Midterms. I really thought at the beginning of this thread that he was toast. Now i'm leaning towards thinking the USA as we have known it is toast! That would be a good thing if change was for the better but it won't be with Trump / Republican fascism. The many Republicans heading in a Trumpian direction indicate that things won't improve and the USA is indeed in for a season of social turmoil. A lot hangs in the balance and many forecasters think the economy/inflation will push the results in favour of a republican majority in the House. Then there is the unknown voter turnout of those against Republican moves in criminalising Abortion.

[Jim Mahan]

Remember, it's always darkest just before it gets pitch fcking black. I remain optimistic that we, the US, will rebound away from trmpism and the MAGAts, and that the rebound will be characterized by a long following period of sustained achievement and progress, but I am not necessarily optimistic that that will happen soon or next. And that, I think, depends on the outcome of this midterm and the next general election. It could definitely get worse before it gets better. I have to continue to think that the rest of us are in the majority, even if we can't muster enough majority at the polls. For now, the Biden whitehouse is our anchor against the hordes of stupid selfish racists.

[gypsie]

I'm betting he will be back in the race as all efforts to pin him down for his crimes etc will be thwarted one way or another ...

To paraphrase Captain Jack Sparrow; "Gentlemen, you will remember this as the time when you almost......" followed by falling off a cliff.

[Hallam]

As this historic day for the USA comes to a close, may we never forget.............


https://youtube.com/shorts/UPOrBnqScLY?feature=share

[Garret]

As this historic day for the USA comes to a close, may we never forget.............


https://youtube.com/shorts/UPOrBnqScLY?feature=share

Thanks - I needed that - as I purposely avoid any election news...

Yes, it's a river in Vermont.

[Hallam]

[McMike]

Remember, it's always darkest just before it gets pitch fcking black. I remain optimistic that we, the US, will rebound away from trmpism and the MAGAts, and that the rebound will be characterized by a long following period of sustained achievement and progress, but I am not necessarily optimistic that that will happen soon or next. And that, I think, depends on the outcome of this midterm and the next general election. It could definitely get worse before it gets better. I have to continue to think that the rest of us are in the majority, even if we can't muster enough majority at the polls. For now, the Biden whitehouse is our anchor against the hordes of stupid selfish racists.

I love your way with words.

[skuthorp]

"Trump warns Republican rival | Donald Trump has threatened to reveal unflattering “things” about his party rival Ron DeSantis if the Florida governor runs for president in 2024."

LOL

[TomF]

I hope several people have their hearts warmed by unsealed indictments in the next few days.

[Canoez]

I hope several people have their hearts warmed by unsealed indictments in the next few days.

+1000!

[icyb]

I will look forward to Mr Mahan posting the song "dancing in the street "

[Joe (SoCal)]

In the next week or two Trump will announce his run for the 2024 presidency.

I say in 6 days - I figure he will announce on the 15th, if he can wait that long.

[Jim Mahan]

You just know trmp can't not run. Of course he'll announce, of course he'll try to get as much focus on himself as possible, meaning his announcement will be dragged out with his version of a tease. If he's not dead or in prison, he'll continue to have rallies, and the MAGAs will continue to hyperventilate, and of course DeSantis will fight with him publicly because neither of them could back down. They are enemies as soon as trmp gets anything other than complete endorsement from him; they already are.

All of which will make for an entertaining sh!tshow. A cross between a circus and a demolition derby. All of which amounts to a net plus for eveyone else because both of those evil clowns will suck up all the oxygen the rest of the Rs will want for their campaigns, and it will give the Ds plenty of ammo. Biden being in the White House and the Senate being in the hands of the Ds means the R capture of the House will be a pyrrhic victory for them. They won't get any of their trash agenda passed and the wailing and moaning will be a tired act by the time the twenty-twenty-four campaigns are in full swing. And that will be the beginning of the blue rebound I've been expecting and the Dem's progressive agenda getting traction.

It would be bad for all of that if trmp could swallow some of his ego and actually endorse DeSantis' presidential bid. It is scary when you hear the pundits describe DeSantis as a smarter version of trmp. I'll bet that pisses off both of them.

[Tom Montgomery]

.
Now that the mid-term election is in the books I expect the DOJ to start handing down criminal indictments.

Then there is this: Watchdog group says it will try to use the 14th Amendment to disqualify Trump from running for president again in 2024.

[TomF]

Will be interesting to see what happens now within the GOP.

I'd said back in 2016 that whoever won that election, the consequences for the GOP would be the thing to watch. How would the split within the party be resolved, now that they were put in a position where they had to govern? Since the deep divisions within the GOP had been impossible to resolve the full time Obama had been in office, making it in effect a fractious coalition of the center-right and more extreme-right.

Win or lose in '16, the GOP would have to make itself into a cohesive party. Which they largely did, through choosing populist Trumpism (building on a Tea Party and "Freedom Caucus" basis) over the parts of the party interested in policy, in administering stuff.

They're facing the same choice now, with the denial of "Red Wave" wins and the more limp impacts of Trump's endorsements when he's not himself on the ticket somewhere. Will the Republicans who want to govern (as some state Governors do) find any effective role within the party again? The number of defeated GOP candidates conceding today suggests that may be more possible than I'd thought. Or is it going to all go to the populist Trumpist whackos and Steve Bannon/Roger Stone types, and these weak Constitutional Republicans be purged?

I dunno. I'd thought that once Trump had wholly swallowed the party, it couldn't resurrect into something respectable Conservatives would want to be part of. A Conservative party would have to be built afresh, from the outside. That's still my strong hunch, but I'm less certain than I was once.

[willin woodworks]

We better come up with a better ticket in '24 than Biden and Harris. We need a clean hand off with a ringing endorsement from Joe. Somebody half his age with twice his charisma.
I vate for him last time and I'll vote for him again but I'd rather vote for somebody with a better chance of winning. Time for Joe to retire with dignity.