Trump is Toast

[Figment]

Why would that level of security clearance be necessary?
My understanding of the purpose of the special master is to identify any evidence which is protected by attorney-client privilege or otherwise inadmissible in a criminal case. Why would anything requiring that level of security qualify for AC privilege or otherwise be inadmissible?

I don't typically subscribe to slippery-slope arguments, but if the special master needs highest clearance wouldn't the rest of the actors in the case?

[Canoez]

Why would that level of security clearance be necessary?
My understanding of the purpose of the special master is to identify any evidence which is protected by attorney-client privilege or otherwise inadmissible in a criminal case. Why would anything requiring that level of security qualify for AC privilege or otherwise be inadmissible?

I don't typically subscribe to slippery-slope arguments, but if the special master needs highest clearance wouldn't the rest of the actors in the case?

Because this is a delay tactic. Trump's lawyers are going to say they need to see ALL of the evidence and documents taken from Mar-a-Lago. Yannow, just to make sure that the FBI wasn't pulling a fast one.

But yes, I take your point about all of the parties needing this security clearance. But do remember that the FBI agents doing the search needed to get higher security classifications to continue the search after seeing how the folders were marked. I guess the point is that the judge, attorneys and others in the court room will need to depend on the testimony of people with clearance about the nature of the documents that were found. Don't forget - at it's crux, this case is about stolen government documents, regardless of the level of classification. The documents with more significant classifications are really in regard to the secondary charges - espionage, which will likely be heard in closed courts.

[Boatbum]

We don't know who takes the house. Abortion is a driving issue this year. Counting chickens is not a good idea.

What kind of precedent will it be if a president is NOT held accountable. Judge cited executive privilege which only applies to current president.

This is just another attempt to consume time.

Fivethirtyeight.com has given the GOP a 75% chance of taking the house. They are not infallible, but I believe they are very trusted in their ability to predict outcomes.

[Paul Pless]

Here's the other sticking point. Some of the material is so classified that only the President and members of his cabinet can review the documents. There's the group that you need to draw the special master from. Don't tell me that isn't going to raise huge legal issues.

i thought trump declassified all the material that he took

[Canoez]

i thought trump declassified all the material that he took

Riiiigggghhhtttt... I'll be of the Missouri persuasion - show me.

[Jim Mahan]

...impeachment investigation into the Hunter Biden Laptop...

You need better material. Cheezits, that's weak. Not just that, it resonates as a threat, like an abusive partner warning a victim to not scream lest she get more of it harder.

It sounds like you're suggesting that no one who gets an electoral win is likely to be innocent enough to withstand scrutiny. A subtler version of whataboutism.

Buttery males. Ben Gazi. What've I got in my pocket? Just let me put it the tip in. The check is in the mail. Just try running it through again, I know there's money in the account. It must be a real Rolex or a I got taken for another twenty bucks. How dare they? I promise I'll pull out in time.

...some of the missteps for the Biden administration...

Teach your mother to suck eggs. Prove 'missteps' or sit down.

And don't call me 'Grasshopper.'

[Keith Wilson]

Because this is a delay tactic.

Remember this. They don't really have anything else, so it will happen again and again and again.

[Bflat]

Fox News website appears to not be covering this. If they are, it's buried. How many of GOP electorate even know about the extent of the security breach?

[Canoez]

Remember this. They don't really have anything else, so it will happen again and again and again.

Yep. When you can't litigate, obfuscate.

[LeeG]

It's not that I think he is innocent, but I'm not sure that is a good precedent. The GOP is about to take the house. How long before the start an impeachment investigation into the Hunter Biden Laptop or some of the missteps for the Biden administration? We could be entering an era where every controversial action of every president becomes fodder for an investigation and prosecution. I think it will make things worse.

In other words the president is always above the law, or he is the law. Hell of an admission.

[Nicholas Carey]

Why would that level of security clearance be necessary?

My understanding of the purpose of the special master is to identify any evidence which is protected by attorney-client privilege or otherwise inadmissible in a criminal case. Why would anything requiring that level of security qualify for AC privilege or otherwise be inadmissible?

I don't typically subscribe to slippery-slope arguments, but if the special master needs highest clearance wouldn't the rest of the actors in the case?

Because some of the documents are TS/SCI+, some are TS or lower.

The special master is supposed to look at all of them.

Without clearance at a level that gives her access to the level of the highest classification of the documents, she can't see them.

Not so much as the title, judge's order notwithstanding.

[Tom Montgomery]

[LeeG]

exactly, how in the hell can ANY “Strong On Defense!” Republican ever think undermining US intel gathering/institutions and shared intel relations is a minor matter. 18 months this stuff sits in a storage room, office, bedroom or who knows in other Trump properties like Bedminster and Trump Tower. A storage room locked with a key. Where house and kitchen staff walk by. Wow, that’s some security. That’s the GOP’s Strong On Defense! leader. And TFG got elected by implicating Hillary couldn’t handle national security matters. The national psyche has a segment that is mentally unwell.

[RichW]

After all, there are people likely still in civil service positions who enabled this, knew that it happened, and whatever their motivations, are compromised now.

Yup. Classified documents have an accompanying chain of custody document. This tracks the classified doc wherever it goes, and who transferred the doc to whom, where and when. If a doc goes missing, its always possible to check who last had it and where the last known transfer took place.

So these TS/SCI docs

• were signed out by person A, put into a classified pouch and then left their proper storage place (a SCIF)
• taken to the White House, signed over to a White House Staffer. ( this has to be a pretty small list of cleared people, especially for TS/SCI SAP docs.)
• WH Staffer took docs to POTUS. Up to now the chain of custody is clear.
• ???

Then, docs are found at Mar a Lago. Seems to me that the DOJ can pretty easily follow the known chain of custody and Bob's yer Uncle.

[LeeG]

oped

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ied-documents/

U.S. District Judge Aileen M. Cannon’s ruling to allow a special master to review top-secret materials that former president Donald J. Trump purloined and left unsecured at his golf club has provoked a near-uniform consensus rarely seen in the current political environment: Her opinion is a mess and potentially dangerous.

The sheer volume of criticism on the opinion is remarkable, as is the ideological range of voices expressing it, from Harvard constitutional scholar Laurence Tribe to former attorney general William P. Barr.
.
.
Although Cannon owes her seat to Trump, one might entertain the possibility that the inexperienced (read: unqualified) judge simply was confused. But there is reason not to give her the benefit of the doubt: She took the extraordinary step of rejecting, not simply ignoring, a persuasive amicus brief filed by a group of former Republican Justice Department officials that dismantled the notion that Trump has any legitimate executive privilege claim. Perhaps the brief hit its target too effectively, so the judge effectively put her fingers in her ears and waved it off, as if to warn other interested parties not to appear in her courtroom and try to expose her faulty reasoning. How could any person conclude that this judge is dispensing justice fairly or in good faith?

“a mess and potentially dangerous” all that to protect TFG’s “reputation”. Pretty impressive what a mess of a psychologically unfit president can do with enablers in Congress. All those barely qualified Federalist appointees. Now imagine the next president has similar morals as TFG but is psychologically fit to pull off an authoritarian regime. All they’d need is another set of enablers willing to subvert the Constitution like the present batch of GOP loyalists and McConnell.

[Jim Mahan]

For all the casual talk and informal rhetoric of late of a looming civil war, the current political divisiveness turning to blood in the streets and a shooting war of neighbor against neighbor (not likely IMO), THIS is the real civil war, and it's already on. The factions behind trmp and McConnell are the enemy, equivalent to the South in the earlier, historic civil war. The capitol riot insurrection is just an early battle, and the SCOTUS abrogating Roe, another one. The midterms and Biden's bold naming, shaming of the MAGAts are a front.

[Boatbum]

In other words the president is always above the law, or he is the law. Hell of an admission.

If I had meant to say that then I would have said it. But if that is what you believe then you are entitled to your position.

[LeeG]

If I had meant to say that then I would have said it. But if that is what you believe then you are entitled to your position.

In your response to Jim you said

It's not that I think he is innocent, but I'm not sure that is a good precedent. The GOP is about to take the house. How long before the start an impeachment investigation into the Hunter Biden Laptop or some of the missteps for the Biden administration? We could be entering an era where every controversial action of every president becomes fodder for an investigation and prosecution. I think it will make things worse.

I took your reference to “that” being TFG being charged and convicted for criminal behavior and you were making an equivalence between said criminal behavior and Biden’s “missteps”. TFG’s actions aren’t controversial, they’re criminal. The sloppy handling of documents and obstructing their return is criminal. If the TFG is protected from the consequences of criminal behavior because of political fallout then you ARE implying the law does not apply to the president.

[Canoez]

If there was any "there" there about Hunter Biden's laptop, the Republicans would have dragged it out into the light of day ages ago. Hunter Biden's laptop is a macguffin, nothing more. Again. Hunter Biden isn't at issue.

[Paul Pless]

hunter biden is still a douchebag

[Peerie Maa]

If there was any "there" there about Hunter Biden's laptop, the Republicans would have dragged it out into the light of day ages ago. Hunter Biden's laptop is a macguffin, nothing more. Again. Hunter Biden isn't at issue.

That did not stop them wasting yonks and loads of taxpayer cash on Hillary.

[LeeG]

hunter biden is still a douchebag

He who is without douchebaggery may cast the first stone!

[John Smith]

What happens if the DOJ and Trump's lawyers cannot agree on a person to be special master? There can't be many qualified, and I don't see them agreeing.

[Hallam]

He who is without douchebaggery may cast the first douchbag!

….fixed it for you.

[Bflat]

What happens if the DOJ and Trump's lawyers cannot agree on a person to be special master? There can't be many qualified, and I don't see them agreeing.

Easy; that's the beauty of the plan - no agreement will be made. The judge is incompetent only if one believes she's on the side of justice.

[Rich Jones]

What happens if the DOJ and Trump's lawyers cannot agree on a person to be special master? There can't be many qualified, and I don't see them agreeing.

Even more depressing is the fact that once a special master completes his/her work, Trump can appeal the decisions made if he doesn't like them. If a special master is appointed, Trump can delay the investigation for years.
I'm beginning to think that those who say Trump will never be charged are correct.
The most we can hope for is that he is denied the WH in 2024.

[Hallam]

Even more depressing is the fact that once a special master completes his/her work, Trump can appeal the decisions made if he doesn't like them. If a special master is appointed, Trump can delay the investigation for years.
I'm beginning to think that those who say Trump will never be charged are correct.
The most we can hope for is that he is denied the WH in 2024.

At the least they should bring TFG in for questioning as he knows the details. Soepena him if necessary…….. if he pleads the 5th so be it but it is essential that the pussy footing response around these legal issues end and end now. If not for the single reason of the balance scale representing the notion all are equal under the law then for the reason outlined in a post I wrote in another thread:

Trump is a grifter and his loyal followers are neutralised non thinkers. Trump supporters from within the corridors of power are as evidenced by their support, either neutralised non thinkers or corrupt grifters themselves. The horse has bolted! The vicious circle is complete and tight as a fish’s asshole. Therefor the power of those previous sycophants who now beat an opposing drum is ineffectual, merely preaching to the converted outside the bubble of toxicity. Everything that Trump touches dies. He is walking a similar path to the many infamous cult leaders who have disgraced the pages of recent history….. Hubbard, Manson, Jones, Sun Myung Moon,…….. USA, you must now come to terms with the realisation that someone the likes of those listed who came before him, unleashing their destructive power, held your nations highest office, set a chain of events to in motion and will not let go….. USA, you have a big problem of the nature that given enough oxygen will change the course of history of your nation with untold damage done into the future. What to do? Only one principle will work…..Deprive the fire of oxygen and do it NOW!

[Tom Montgomery]

It's not that I think he is innocent, but I'm not sure that is a good precedent. The GOP is about to take the house. How long before the start an impeachment investigation into the Hunter Biden Laptop or some of the missteps for the Biden administration? We could be entering an era where every controversial action of every president becomes fodder for an investigation and prosecution. I think it will make things worse.

I agree with you that the MAGA congress critters are absolutely unscrupulous and irresponsible and would seize on a criminal prosecution of Donald Trump to use their control of the U.S. House to retaliate against perceived political enemies. This is why it is imperative to defeat the treasonous bastids. A lot can change between now and November. Should justice be held hostage to such vile threats? Are there any crimes for which an ex-president may be prosecuted, in your opinion? If so, give us an example or two.

[Tom Montgomery]

hunter biden is still a douchebag

Thank God I never voted for him.

[Keith Wilson]

Thank God I never voted for him.

And I probably won't vote for him the next time he runs for president, either.

[gypsie]

Judge rejected the argument that trump be treated like every other citizen.
Appeal goes to a Circuit court with six Trump appointees.
Trumps advisors have started a list of candidates for the Special Master.

Looks like all are equal before the law, but some are more equal than others.

What a joke of a system.

[gypsie]

oped

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ied-documents/

some more

She took the extraordinary step of rejecting, not simply ignoring, a persuasive amicus brief filed by a group of former Republican Justice Department officials that dismantled the notion that Trump has any legitimate executive privilege claim. Perhaps the brief hit its target too effectively, so the judge effectively put her fingers in her ears and waved it off, as if to warn other interested parties not to appear in her courtroom and try to expose her faulty reasoning. How could any person conclude that this judge is dispensing justice fairly or in good faith?
In an alternate reality — in which conservative jurists are concerned about national security, skeptical of the unitary executive theory and wary of judicial activism — it would be a no-brainer for the Justice Department to appeal Cannon’s decision to the notoriously conservative 11th Circuit. But we now have a federal judiciary laced with Trump appointees who cannot be relied upon to render a fair reading of the law. That’s an unpleasant fact and dangerous legacy of the Trump era that we will face for decades to come.

[Boatbum]

In your response to Jim you said

It's not that I think he is innocent, but I'm not sure that is a good precedent. The GOP is about to take the house. How long before the start an impeachment investigation into the Hunter Biden Laptop or some of the missteps for the Biden administration? We could be entering an era where every controversial action of every president becomes fodder for an investigation and prosecution. I think it will make things worse.

I took your reference to “that” being TFG being charged and convicted for criminal behavior and you were making an equivalence between said criminal behavior and Biden’s “missteps”. TFG’s actions aren’t controversial, they’re criminal. The sloppy handling of documents and obstructing their return is criminal. If the TFG is protected from the consequences of criminal behavior because of political fallout then you ARE implying the law does not apply to the president.

But you said that I said this:

In other words the president is always above the law, or he is the law. Hell of an admission.

I never said he is the law or above the law. And I was not implying that - if you took the inference then you did it on your own. I think you feel that by polarizing the issue you can create more traction for your position. Unfortunately polarization is why we are in the situation that we are in now. What I said was that I don't think it is a good thing (for the country) to prosecutor him for this. There is a big difference between being able to prosecute and choosing to prosecute. I believe the term is prosecutorial discretion. Prosecuting him would only polarize things more and would undoubtedly fuel an impeach Joe Biden push among the GOP when they get control of the house - do not think that would be a good thing either.

The guy has been out of office for over 18 months and everyone is still looking at his failings instead of who will be the best person to lead the country into the future.

[Boatbum]

If there was any "there" there about Hunter Biden's laptop, the Republicans would have dragged it out into the light of day ages ago. Hunter Biden's laptop is a macguffin, nothing more. Again. Hunter Biden isn't at issue.

Have you been following this story?

The GOP has dragged it out. And no media outlets except for Fox put the story out there. In fact the New York Times called it Russian disinformation only to legitimize the contents of the laptop a year after the election. It is clear from the emails that Hunter was pedaling his father's influence to Ukraine and Chinese businesses. Now even CNN is following the story. It may very well be that this was big talk from Hunter and Joe built a firewall around his son's business activities, but it sure doesn't look that way. In fact Hunter rode with his father on Air Force 2 on a business trip to China. There are pictures of Joe eating dinner with Hunter and Hunter's foreign business associates. After the November elections you can rest assured that there will be a house investigation of this- it will only serve to divide the political factions even more.

EXCLUSIVE: They're as slow as Joe! Sleepy New York Times FINALLY wakes up and admits Hunter Biden's abandoned laptop IS REAL, a YEAR after DailyMail.com authenticated its contents and broke dozens of stories about his shady dealings

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...henticity.html


Joe.jpg

[John Smith]

Even more depressing is the fact that once a special master completes his/her work, Trump can appeal the decisions made if he doesn't like them. If a special master is appointed, Trump can delay the investigation for years.
I'm beginning to think that those who say Trump will never be charged are correct.
The most we can hope for is that he is denied the WH in 2024.

You may be correct. Then, again, the GA. thing seems to be picking up steam.