Trump is Toast

[John Smith]

I agree with you that the MAGA congress critters are absolutely unscrupulous and irresponsible and would seize on a criminal prosecution of Donald Trump to use their control of the U.S. House to retaliate against perceived political enemies. This is why it is imperative to defeat the treasonous bastids. A lot can change between now and November. Should justice be held hostage to such vile threats? Are there any crimes for which an ex-president may be prosecuted, in your opinion? If so, give us an example or two.

It will get interesting if dems win seats in Nov. How might that impact Trump's support?

[John Smith]

But you said that I said this:



I never said he is the law or above the law. And I was not implying that - if you took the inference then you did it on your own. I think you feel that by polarizing the issue you can create more traction for your position. Unfortunately polarization is why we are in the situation that we are in now. What I said was that I don't think it is a good thing (for the country) to prosecutor him for this. There is a big difference between being able to prosecute and choosing to prosecute. I believe the term is prosecutorial discretion. Prosecuting him would only polarize things more and would undoubtedly fuel an impeach Joe Biden push among the GOP when they get control of the house - do not think that would be a good thing either.

The guy has been out of office for over 18 months and everyone is still looking at his failings instead of who will be the best person to lead the country into the future.

I don't think we're incapable of doing two things at once. There's a far greater danger to this country, IMO, if Trump is never held accountable.

[John Smith]

Have you been following this story?

The GOP has dragged it out. And no media outlets except for Fox put the story out there. In fact the New York Times called it Russian disinformation only to legitimize the contents of the laptop a year after the election. It is clear from the emails that Hunter was pedaling his father's influence to Ukraine and Chinese businesses. Now even CNN is following the story. It may very well be that this was big talk from Hunter and Joe built a firewall around his son's business activities, but it sure doesn't look that way. In fact Hunter rode with his father on Air Force 2 on a business trip to China. There are pictures of Joe eating dinner with Hunter and Hunter's foreign business associates. After the November elections you can rest assured that there will be a house investigation of this- it will only serve to divide the political factions even more.



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...henticity.html


Attachment 118635

Even some of the FOX people are now turning on Trump. That tells us something.

[Boatbum]

Even some of the FOX people are now turning on Trump. That tells us something.

Her was NEVER my choice. Very flawed man and far too arrogant for my tastes.

[Boatbum]

I don't think we're incapable of doing two things at once. There's a far greater danger to this country, IMO, if Trump is never held accountable.

We definitely can do two things at once. But that doesn't, in my opinion, mean that we should.

[Canoez]

Tweet of the day:

Just realized Trump's Presidential portrait will be a mugshot

[willin woodworks]

If there is any credible evidence that Hunter Biden broke the law the DOJ must pursue a vigorous and thorough investigation and if he did indeed break the law he should be punished to the full extent of the law. There is no privilege to being the president's son.

If Hunter is guilty and he is not prosecuted there is no justice and no one can claim that TFG should be prosecuted for his crimes.

Equal justice under the law. You ether believe it or you dont.

[LeeG]

We definitely can do two things at once. But that doesn't, in my opinion, mean that we should.

Because applying the law to TFG will upset some people?

[TomF]

Because applying the law to TFG will upset some people?

It will upset more people if TFG skates.

[George Jung]

Willin', I had to check some of your other posts to confirm - to me - where you're coming from.

I've seen no credible evidence - none, whatsoever - that Hunter has 'broken the law'. It continues to be the Repubs 'whipping boy', just to keep their minions in a lather - because they have nothing else. Benghazi!, redux. Undoubtedly, if they had anything of substance, they would have/would be pursuing it, legally. They have nothing.

Where I would take you to task - 'if he is not prosecuted, there is no justice' - sounds very much like there HAS been a production of evidence, and a suggestion this has been suppressed, an investigation hampered. It has not.

OTOH, TFG has enough crimes to write a book, just on the facts. Don't conflate the two. 'Both sides do it', is a lie. There's one 'team' that 'do it' professionally.

[Boatbum]

Willin', I had to check some of your other posts to confirm - to me - where you're coming from.

I've seen no credible evidence - none, whatsoever - that Hunter has 'broken the law'. It continues to be the Repubs 'whipping boy', just to keep their minions in a lather - because they have nothing else. Benghazi!, redux. Undoubtedly, if they had anything of substance, they would have/would be pursuing it, legally. They have nothing.

Where I would take you to task - 'if he is not prosecuted, there is no justice' - sounds very much like there HAS been a production of evidence, and a suggestion this has been suppressed, an investigation hampered. It has not.

OTOH, TFG has enough crimes to write a book, just on the facts. Don't conflate the two. 'Both sides do it', is a lie. There's one 'team' that 'do it' professionally.

Because his investigation has not reached the point of closure or the pressing of charges.

WashingtonCNN —

The federal investigation into Hunter Biden’s business activities is nearing a critical juncture as investigators weigh possible charges and prosecutors confront Justice Department guidelines to generally avoid bringing politically sensitive cases close to an election, according to people briefed on the matter.
While no final decision has been made on whether to bring charges against President Joe Biden’s son, sources say the probe has intensified in recent months along with discussions among Delaware-based prosecutors, investigators running the probe and officials at Justice Department headquarters.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/polit...ure/index.html

[Peerie Maa]

If there was any "there" there about Hunter Biden's laptop, the Republicans would have dragged it out into the light of day ages ago. Hunter Biden's laptop is a macguffin, nothing more. Again. Hunter Biden isn't at issue.

That did not stop them wasting yonks and loads of taxpayer cash on Hillary.

If there is any credible evidence that Hunter Biden broke the law the DOJ must pursue a vigorous and thorough investigation and if he did indeed break the law he should be punished to the full extent of the law. There is no privilege to being the president's son.

If Hunter is guilty and he is not prosecuted there is no justice and no one can claim that TFG should be prosecuted for his crimes.

Equal justice under the law. You ether believe it or you dont.

Willin', I had to check some of your other posts to confirm - to me - where you're coming from.

I've seen no credible evidence - none, whatsoever - that Hunter has 'broken the law'. It continues to be the Repubs 'whipping boy', just to keep their minions in a lather - because they have nothing else. Benghazi!, redux. Undoubtedly, if they had anything of substance, they would have/would be pursuing it, legally. They have nothing.

Where I would take you to task - 'if he is not prosecuted, there is no justice' - sounds very much like there HAS been a production of evidence, and a suggestion this has been suppressed, an investigation hampered. It has not.

OTOH, TFG has enough crimes to write a book, just on the facts. Don't conflate the two. 'Both sides do it', is a lie. There's one 'team' that 'do it' professionally.

Hunter Biden is the new Hillary.

[Osborne Russell]

Because his investigation has not reached the point of closure or the pressing of charges.

That doesn't indicate that there's evidence sufficient to charge, let alone convict. If anything, it implies the opposite. Like Trump, you imply that the fact of investigation is evidence of guilt, and like him the last thing you want is "closure" whether by conviction or refusal to charge, which, BTW, is a matter of those who know aren't telling, and those who tell don't know.

[George Jung]

Yup. Throw poo until something sticks - or, more likely, repeat the un-proven charges until the election. It certainly worked before.

[willin woodworks]

I have no definitive opinion abut Hunter Biden one way or another but I have seen and read some sketchy stuff.

There is no comparison and I didnt mean to make one between the TFG's years of corruption and dishonesty to Hunter's maybe potential shady dealings on the back of his old man's name and stature.

But if there is any substance to the allegations that he is/was dirty then we'd better be damn careful of playing the same game the GOP is playing and minimizing his crimes.

It is essential in my mind that TFG be brought to justice and I dont want to see that compromised by the left protecting the current president's kid.

[Boatbum]

That doesn't indicate that there's evidence sufficient to charge, let alone convict. If anything, it implies the opposite. Like Trump, you imply that the fact of investigation is evidence of guilt, and like him the last thing you want is "closure" whether by conviction or refusal to charge, which, BTW, is a matter of those who know aren't telling, and those who tell don't know.

When did I say Hunter was "guilty" of anything. First you say the Hunter Biden Laptop is a GOP talking point and when I show you that even the more liberal news outlets are picking up and legitimizing the story you resort to "ya but he hasn't been found guilty". Like all investigations, they start by collecting information. As I recall that is what the Jan6 committee did. They did not start by convicting Trump, they didn't start by charging Trump, they started by investigating.

What I did say is that this is exactly what should not happen. I don't think it is good for the country to drag Trump through a trial AND I don't think is good for the country to have a congressional investigation in the Hunter Biden Laptop. I think both acts will further divide the country.

[willin woodworks]

Except that not dragging TFG through a trial legitimizes his criminal behaviour and opens the door to the next corrupt, treasonous thief that might get himself elected. The whole world is watching and if we let Trump skate, we are no better than any tin pot dictatorship and we abdicate all moral standing in the international community; which is what TFG had been trying to do for his four years in office....

If Hunter Biden committed crimes it can be handled by the justice system without congressional hearings. The best thing is for a thorough investigation and let the chips fall where they may. I'd venture to guess that his father will agree and not try to interfere.

[Figment]

... I don't think it is good for the country to drag Trump through a trial AND I don't think is good for the country to have a congressional investigation in the Hunter Biden Laptop. I think both acts will further divide the country.

I view this as a false equivalency.
Trump trial is part of a proscribed legal process.
Congressional "investigation" of hunter biden laptop is political theater.

The notion that these proceedings will further divide the country wanders well into Pollyanna territory. Would a halt to either process actually narrow the divide?

[LeeG]

This guy stalking congresswoman Jayapal is upset. TFG shouldn’t be prosecuted for criminal negligence in handling state secrets because it will upset him more.

What a brilliant argument for excusing the abuse of power.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...eats-stalking/

[Boatbum]

I view this as a false equivalency.
Trump trial is part of a proscribed legal process.
Congressional "investigation" of hunter biden laptop is political theater.

The notion that these proceedings will further divide the country wanders well into Pollyanna territory. Would a halt to either process actually narrow the divide?

I am off for the night. Lets just agree to disagree. Have a good night

[LeeG]

Sandy Berger 2006. Now he wasn’t the great white hope for Christian nationalists so he should be charged. But TFG wandering off with boxes of highly classified material, “storing” it in a store room and other places while obstructing its return should not be held responsible because it’ll upset some people.

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7351422

Sandy Berger, who was President Clinton’s top national security aide, pleaded guilty Friday to taking classified documents from the National Archives and cutting them up with scissors.

Rather than the “honest mistake” he described last summer, Berger acknowledged to U.S. Magistrate Deborah Robinson that he intentionally took and deliberately destroyed three copies of the same document dealing with terror threats during the 2000 millennium celebration.

“Guilty, your honor,” Berger responded when asked how he pleaded.

The charge of unauthorized removal and retention of classified material is a misdemeanor that carries a maximum sentence of a year in prison and up to a $100,000 fine.

However, under a plea agreement that Robinson must accept, Berger would serve no jail time but instead pay a $10,000 fine, surrender his security clearance for three years and cooperate with investigators. Security clearance allows access to classified government materials.

$50,000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Berger

[Keith Wilson]

The DOJ is appealing the decision to have a special master review the documents, hopefully to a judge that isn't a Trump loyalist. More delays, but better than the alternative. News story here.

[Tom Montgomery]

.
I think the danger to the welfare of our Republic would lay in NOT indicting and prosecuting Trump if any other citizen would be indicted and prosecuted in the same circumstances (the illegal possession of government property and the mishandling of classified material). A precedent needs to be set to discourage a future treasonous demagogue pulling the same stunt.

[Figment]

That DOJ response is quite something.

...Furthermore, appointment of a special master would impede the government's ongoing criminal investigation and -- if the special master were tasked with reviewing classified documents -- would impede the Intelligence Community from conducting its ongoing review of the national security risk that improper storage of these highly sensitive materials may have caused and from identifying measures to rectify or mitigate any damage that improper storage may have caused...

I read this as; your Order flies in the face of a lot of settled law and will certainly be overturned upon appeal, and is now compromising national security, so let's walk this back.

[LeeG]

That judge is not showing much expertise in her new position.

[Canoez]

That DOJ response is quite something.

I read this as; your Order flies in the face of a lot of settled law and will certainly be overturned upon appeal, and is now compromising national security, so let's walk this back.

This is a situation in which the people writing the appeal have far more legal experience than the judge sitting on the case. Which is astounding.

[LeeG]

https://www.lawfareblog.com/everythi...cannons-ruling

The Justice Department has now filed a notice of appeal and a motion to partially stay U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon’s Monday opinion granting former President Trump’s request for a special master to review material seized at Mar-a-Lago and enjoining the use of the material the FBI took in the meantime for investigative purposes.

Judge Cannon has been taking a bit of a beating all week for her decision. The criticism, some of it vituperative, has contained a lot of falsehoods and a considerable dollop of conspiracy theorizing, and it has often ascribed partisan motive for the ruling.

All of which might under normal circumstances tempt our contrarian hearts to try to defend the opinion.

But Cannon’s opinion actually defies defense. It is an epic mess, one that manages to do violence to a remarkable number of distinct areas of law in an admirable economy of only 24 pages.

[Keith Wilson]

It is an epic mess, one that manages to do violence to a remarkable number of distinct areas of law in an admirable economy of only 24 pages.

Ouch! That's eloquent.

The article demonstrates it in grotesque detail, if one has the patience to read it all.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I view this as a false equivalency.
Trump trial is part of a proscribed legal process.
Congressional "investigation" of hunter biden laptop is political theater.

The notion that these proceedings will further divide the country wanders well into Pollyanna territory. Would a halt to either process actually narrow the divide?

Did you mean proscribed or prescribed?

[CWSmith]

Every time I see the thread title "Trump is Toast" I think, "I hope so, but not yet!" I feel like the DoJ is taking their time and doing it right, but will he ever be made to pay?

[Jim Mahan]

A small not entirely rational voice in my head keeps suggesting that the longer it takes to bring him to justice, the worse it's going to be for him. The longer it goes on, the more chance he'll do something else even worse, and the more he's likely to lose support and cult worship from the numpties.

At some point, I think, there is a tipping point for that adulation. As more and more individuals realize they've been had rather than rescued by him, and that there is a different R person to throw their support to, the more it will continue, like a reverse snowball. I think he'll always have a hard-core of support, just like HItler does still. And I'm probably overshooting my analysis, or feelings if you prefer. But eventually, he'll lose all his civil and criminal cases, he'll eventually lose all of the support of the big pocket donors and lenders he's accustomed to stiffing, and he'll wind up, hopefully before he's mouldering in a cheap box, with nothing but a very plain place to live out his days, also hopefully, of course, a cell. And have nothing but his diaper, orange jumpsuit, and a tin plate for dinner. If it's hopeless to hang on to that much of it, I still think that he will eventually pay for his worst crimes and be finished having any significant influence. I'll go further and say that, the further he goes down that road, the more any ambitious Rs will begin to treat him and his 'movement' with scorn and eventual contempt. The clock is winding down on trmp and trmpism.

Say a prayer, sing a 'him.'

[John Smith]

Every time I see the thread title "Trump is Toast" I think, "I hope so, but not yet!" I feel like the DoJ is taking their time and doing it right, but will he ever be made to pay?

Ga. looks interesting. So much on tape.

[Figment]

Did you mean proscribed or prescribed?

It appears that my resolution to become less pedantic has been effective.

[RFNK]

One crumb at a time.

[Tom Montgomery]

.
New Poll: 58% of Americans believe MAGA GOP is a threat to democracy. Not good news for Republican mid-term election confidence.

WASHINGTON, Sept 7 (Reuters) - Days after Democratic President Joe Biden gave a fiery speech attacking former President Donald Trump and his Republican allies as an extremist threat, a Reuters/Ipsos poll completed on Wednesday found a majority of Americans believe Trump's movement is undermining democracy.

Fifty-eight percent of respondents in the two-day poll - including one in four Republicans - said Trump's "Make America Great Again" movement is threatening America's democratic foundations.

Biden's Sept. 1 speech marked a sharp turn for his efforts to boost Democrats in the Nov. 8 midterm elections, when Republicans aim to win control of the U.S. Congress. read more

Speaking in Pennsylvania, a key electoral battleground, Biden urged voters to reject Trump and extremism. Republican leaders, including House of Representatives minority leader Kevin McCarthy, responded by calling Biden divisive.

Fifty-nine percent of respondents said Biden's speech will further divide the country, though just about half of respondents said they didn't watch or follow the speech at all.

While Trump remains popular among Republicans, his standing within the party has suffered since a mob of his supporters attacked the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, in a bid to stop lawmakers from certifying Biden's election victory.

Biden's own approval ratings remain low, despite a string of recent legislative achievements. Just 39% percent of respondents said they approve of Biden's job performance as president, a level not far above the lowest levels Trump had during his presidency.

The latest Reuters/Ipsos poll, conducted online in English throughout the United States, gathered responses from 1,003 adults, including 411 Democrats and 397 Republicans. It has a credibility interval - a measure of precision - of four percentage points.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/mos...os-2022-09-07/