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Thread: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    So far, we're in agreement. Here's where our conclusions diverge:



    That comes across as extremely condescending. Why? Because you don't have any basis on which to judge my motivations, and yet you are making the huge assumption that I am operating in bad faith. And your conclusions on this are, quite frankly, dead wrong. So, you've started off on a bad foot. But I'm still listening.



    OK, although my initial reaction is to disagree, that's certainly open to debate. The usual course of action for someone making such a claim would be to provide some specific examples of my paraphrasing and offer an explanation of what makes them "bad." One good procedure for doing that would be to compare models of varying levels of effectiveness and discuss what makes each one good or bad. I'll certainly be interested if you ever do something like that. Until then, however, you're just making pronouncements without evidence--a particular rhetorical weakness of yours I've pointed out to you numerous times. But I'm still listening.

    So, this:



    OK, you're using qualifiers like "seemingly" and "appears to be" here, which I appreciate. But again, your conclusions about my motivations and intentions are wrong. You aren't in any position to know that, of course, but I am. I'd ask that you provide specific evidence of bad faith or dishonesty before believing it exists. I consider that a basic courtesy that I am willing to extend to most posters here, and I'd appreciate the same in return. Your post, even with the qualifiers you were careful to add, does come across as very close to an accusation of dishonesty on my part.



    Yes. Some of my posts certainly appear to trigger adverse reactions from certain WBF members. On the other hand, other WBF members have often noted some of my posts as reasonable, honest, and accurate. Some here have even admitted to changing their minds because of things I've posted.

    So, are there arguments and disrespect? Yes. To what degree its origins are in my posts vs. in my readers' interpretations is an open question. I would be very skeptical of anyone claiming the basis is completely one way or the other. I feel that you, for one, are very quick to place the blame on me. You seem determined to interpret my words in the least positive way possible--that's probably a result of our history, eh?

    OK, this:



    First, I see that, again, you seem to be making the unwarranted assumption that I don't try to paraphrase accurately. Unless you have evidence that I am trying to be dishonest--and you don't--please assume I'm acting in good faith. I do the same for you and other posters, and I'd appreciate that basic courtesy.

    You're also making assumptions that I don't read carefully. In fact, I'll warrant that I am one of the more careful readers in the Bilge.

    I think where you go wrong here is that I often respond to the unspoken assumptions, implications, and the inevitable logical conclusions of what someone has posted--things that the original poster probably didn't say explicitly, but can be reasonably inferred if one is willing to think analytically. That's just my default mode of operating, for better or worse. When someone advances a claim, my mind instantly reacts by thinking "If THAT is true, then THIS must also be true" or "When you say _______, you seem to be implying ______."

    I also assume--wrongly, I suppose--that everyone recognizes that all of my conclusions are provisional, and remain susceptible to evidence--even though I don't always include explicit qualifiers in my posts. And so, when I paraphrase what someone else said, I do it to present a hypothesis. If someone thinks I've paraphrased them incorrectly, and reached the wrong hypothesis as a result, I expect them to tell me so, and explain how I've not accurately restated their views.

    A pipe dream, I know! But then, you already knew me to be somewhat Quixotic, I think.

    Tom
    Gosh that's a lot of words to avoid confronting the issue. The issue is - when you 'paraphrase', you do it poorly. Inaccurately. When you do THAT it frequently becomes a 'Straw Man' situation.

    That's a fact.
    David G
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  2. #72
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Tom, paraphrasing is fine, but with all respect, sometimes when you summarize or paraphrase something that you disagree with, you do it in a way that distorts it and makes it sound more extreme or sillier than it is. Not always, but often enough that several people have pointed it out. It may not be intentional, as you seem to be unaware of it. It often looks from the outside like constructing a straw man. I think it would help clear and amicable discussion if you tried to be careful not to do that - or maybe just quoted the original words rather than paraphrasing (electrons are plentiful).

    Back to the original topic - note that this is a disagreement over tactics. I don't think any of us would have too much trouble if Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris were crowned queen, and could implement whatever policies she wanted without opposition. We don't agree 100%, but the real disputes tend to be about how to get things done in the face of utterly intransigent opposition, not what things to try and do.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Gosh that's a lot of words to avoid confronting the issue. The issue is - when you 'paraphrase', you do it poorly. Inaccurately. When you do THAT it frequently becomes a 'Straw Man' situation.

    That's a fact.
    No, that's your opinion--still unbacked by specific examples.

    And it's a lot of words precisely because I did NOT avoid confronting any issues.

    Tom
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  4. #74
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    No, that's your opinion--still unbacked by specific examples.

    And it's a lot of words precisely because I did NOT avoid confronting any issues.

    Tom
    As you wish.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Tom, paraphrasing is fine, but with all respect, sometimes when you summarize or paraphrase something that you disagree with, you do it in a way that distorts it and makes it sound more extreme or sillier than it is. Not always, but often enough that several people have pointed it out. It may not be intentional, as you seem to be unaware of it. It often looks from the outside like constructing a straw man. I think it would help clear and amicable discussion if you tried to be careful not to do that - or maybe just quoted the original words rather than paraphrasing (electrons are plentiful).
    I'll think on that--thanks. Again, specific examples, with explanations? Those do seem to be in short supply.

    I don't think it's possible, or even desirable, to avoid paraphrasing in discussion, though. Re-stating someone else's position in your own words is the process by which a reader can offer up his understanding to the writer and check for accuracy, and also sometimes to show the writer what they have implied, or to demonstrate the necessary logical outcomes of a particular claim or belief--things that the original writer may not actually be aware of.

    And frankly, as my earlier exchange with twodot (the 49,000+ forum members posts) showed, avoiding the need for readers to make plausible inferences is virtually impossible anyway.

    Tom
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  6. #76
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    As you wish.
    As it is--and I'm not your Buttercup.

    Tom
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    As I said above, I voted for Sanders in the primary and for Clinton in the general. One in ten staying home in a race that close and that important really is not acceptable.
    My recollection is Sanders was VERY late in conceding and supporting her. Once he conceded, I often heard him say he'd do everything he could to prevent Trump from being president, which was not quite the same as saying he'd do everything he could to make Hillary president.

    I have no doubt at all that he, who claimed he never campaigned negatively, had attacked her speeches, at least, rather mercilessly, in spite of them being perfectly legal. He was unable, although he didn't give it a great effort, to bring his supporter to vote for her.

    Bernie helped elect Trump. I think that's a fact
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Most intelligent, rational people think that "seeing" something without any evidence is NOT rational. If you'd care to explain how you think "it" is present, feel free to do so. The burden of proof is not on the accused.

    Tom
    I don't know. Look at all the seemingly sane, rational people who believe is some God they have no evidence of.

    People who get their information from Lou Dobbs, Judge Jeanene, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. believe Trump won the election.

    I doubt they know of all the court cases Trump has LOST in regards to the elections.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Amen!

    Now, how to do it...

    Tom
    Good question. Getting rid of political parties would be good, IMO, but how to do it? I have no idea.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Most intelligent, rational people think that "seeing" something without any evidence is NOT rational. If you'd care to explain how you think "it" is present, feel free to do so. The burden of proof is not on the accused.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I don't know. Look at all the seemingly sane, rational people who believe is some God they have no evidence of.

    People who get their information from Lou Dobbs, Judge Jeanene, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. believe Trump won the election.

    I doubt they know of all the court cases Trump has LOST in regards to the elections.
    True. But those are not rational people, no matter how rational they appear, eh?

    Tom
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  11. #81
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    I don't know if it is 'something.' On this forum perhaps only two people understand global warming better than I (Orca and Chip). For years I followed the arctic sea ice every day. I worry that AOC is doing more harm by good, by linking the fight against global warming with slogans that the right can easily co-opt to demonize as socialism. I am fascinated that the left CANNOT critique AOC and Bernie on their efforts. I find it fascinating that it is important to the left to NOT BE align with a party, rather to be apart. To me that says that their own identity is more important to them than fighting global warming.
    Dems are not good at slogans or wordsmithing. They need to learn to do better messaging.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    True. But those are not rational people, no matter how rational they appear, eh?

    Tom
    Perhaps rational, like beauty, is subjective. At least, these days, facts are subjective. Which, IMO, is our biggest problem.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Amazing.

    A thread that started as a personal attack - continues 'on topic'.

    Also, some of you folks need to go back and reread WI-Tom's treatise on Ad Hominem.. and come to the awareness that attacking a method used by a person (instead of following the argument) is very much that ad hominem fallacy.




    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post

    .....

    Back to the original topic - note that this is a disagreement over tactics. I don't think any of us would have too much trouble if Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris were crowned queen, and could implement whatever policies she wanted without opposition. We don't agree 100%, but the real disputes tend to be about how to get things done in the face of utterly intransigent opposition, not what things to try and do.
    Opposition which - amazingly enough - is also from (other) Dems.

    And that is why 'policy' people offer & stump for different (policy) people.. as Dems. To get past at least the first part of that utterly intransigent opposition.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by switters View Post
    I see the Bern is still being felt, therefore he is effective. AOC gets better every day, that lady is sharp.

    I'm good with the content, the message or plan, people arguing the semantics appear ill informed.
    Yeah.

    We don't care, just so long as it makes the Dems mad.

    We don't care if we're the only ones who 'get it', either. If people are too stupid to vote for Bernie, then burn it all down.



    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    Amazing.

    A thread that started as a personal attack - continues 'on topic'.

    Also, some of you folks need to go back and reread WI-Tom's treatise on Ad Hominem.. and come to the awareness that attacking a method used by a person (instead of following the argument) is very much that ad hominem fallacy.






    Opposition which - amazingly enough - is also from (other) Dems.

    And that is why 'policy' people offer & stump for different (policy) people.. as Dems. To get past at least the first part of that utterly intransigent opposition.
    Personal?

    You want to say something inflammatory, and then pretend it's all me?

    Good luck with that.

    Also, good luck with selling the Bernie Agenda, which apparently can not be given away.

    You'd have better luck selling high-efficiency central heating in Equatorial Guinea.

    Whining about how unfair it is just sounds more trumpish all the time.

    Seriously.

    It is time to put aside childish things, recognize that this is the best chance the progressive agenda is going to have for decades and maybe the ONLY chance liberal democracy is going to have forever and Carpe Diem one time.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    Pot or kettle--I'm sure you can handle either role with your usual aplomb...

    Jeff C
    My comment was based on observation of the many posts that display duplicity. Your comment appears to be an unfounded allegation. There is a difference.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up


  17. #87
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Spiffy mittens, though.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Oh, the memes. They're wonderful.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  20. #90
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Saw one that honed in on Bernie's "to do" list, allegedly written on the brown envelope.
    • 9:00 drop off dry-cleaning
    • 10:00 Joe's thing
    • 1:30 post office
    • .....
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Saw one that honed in on Bernie's "to do" list, allegedly written on the brown envelope.
    • 9:00 drop off dry-cleaning
    • 10:00 Joe's thing
    • 1:30 post office
    • .....
    OK... you cracked me up with that one.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Berniacs Need To Grow TF Up

    A friend of the local daughter is the woman who knitted the mittens. Seems orders are through the roof.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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