Duckworks Scout

[WI-Tom]

But... Chris, what did you mean by "reelable"?

Probably "reefable"?

Tom

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

Yes, Tom, that just occurred to me, so I popped back on here. Heavy Duty Marine quality spell check... ;-) I was just about to post that when I saw your post.

I looked at the Portage Pram rig when I stopped by Duckworks a few months back (great folks!) but didn't like the lack of reefing. Maybe the Scout rig would be something for me to check out. Ductworks didn't have a Scout sail/rig on site when I stopped by with my dinghy on trailer.
Formite Jack Louden was kind enough to send me dimensions for the Pram.

If anyone has videos of their own Scouts sailing in a stiff breeze and especially reefing underway I'm sure they'd be of interest here.
It's a cool rig and I wish that Ductworks would show a better video than the only one I know of "Rigging the Portage Pram". I think they could sell a lot more of them that way! That ghosting action at the end of the rigging video is a bit frustrating!

[JOBBER]

I guess I missed the particulars (other than weight) of the Scout.
The Duckworks and Turnpoint Design websites have nothing, that i could find.
Other than "kits" do actual planes exist? at least study?

[dbp1]

I guess I missed the particulars (other than weight) of the Scout.
The Duckworks and Turnpoint Design websites have nothing, that i could find.
Other than "kits" do actual planes exist? at least study?

No. It's kind of confusing -- like they aren't actually trying to get people to build them. I wonder if the change in ownership has delayed things?

I emailed them asking some (relatively basic) questions about dimensions (freeboard, etc), and they had to go to Turnpoint to get the answers.

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

When I was at Duckworks I asked (last Spring when I brought my dinghy over on the ferry to check the Pram's rig out) if they had any contacts for Scout owners/builders for feedback on the rig, etc. and they didn't know of any. I expressed interest in seeing how the reefing worked under way and seeing a video under sail.

Wondered if this rig is attractive to current balance lug sailors, esp. fully battened lug owners.

[stromborg]

I looked at the Portage Pram rig when I stopped by Duckworks a few months back (great folks!) but didn't like the lack of reefing.

I built my PP as rowing only, while a capable little boat (emphasis on little) taking it out in conditions calling for a reef would not be IMO the best decision a sailor could make.

[dbp1]

When I was at Duckworks I asked (last Spring when I brought my dinghy over on the ferry to check the Pram's rig out) if they had any contacts for Scout owners/builders for feedback on the rig, etc. and they didn't know of any. I expressed interest in seeing how the reefing worked under way and seeing a video under sail.

Wondered if this rig is attractive to current balance lug sailors, esp. fully battened lug owners.

There was some report (maybe on the Duckworks facebook group) of one builder, and I don't think they loved the rig, but it was one person and I have no idea of their experience. The complaint they had, if I remember correctly, was that it was hard to control the sail downwind, and were thinking about putting a boom on it (I think). But again, one person of unknown experience -- and it's sort of hard to imagine the full battens aren't a nicer system than standing lug, which plenty of people like!

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

Steve, In an older thread I was considering the pram rig for a larger (10.5') dinghy so wanted the ability to reef. The Scout rig is the same/similar but offers "some" ability to reef but seeing that in action would be worth a thousand words in a video.

With my boomless sprit main, I sometimes wonder if the battens on the Scout sail would allow more weather cocking dead downwind (sort of like a boom might) to keep the dreaded "death roll" away or at least minimize it. I lean towards "tacking" downwind 99% of the time now...

[Jack Loudon]

The Scout rig is on my 9.5 ft pram. The first photo below shows how the luff sleeve stops about two ft from the bottom, and also the reef grommets at tack & clew and 2 more at mid point. To reef the sail, I release the halyard and lower the sail completely in the boat, then tie in the reef and re-hoist the sail. Easier said than done in rough water but doable. It sets beautifully and sails great on most points, but the boomless rig even with full-length battens must be tacked downwind to keep the sails full. It's likely due to my inexperience but downwind sailing is challenging. I am used to bigger boats and still have lots to learn on this little dinghy. Second photo shows the rig as purchased from Duckworks before the boom (discussed below) was added.

The homemade boom (just a closet rod) shown in the photo is intended for better control of the sail downwind. It also simplifies sheet leads and will make tacking easier, as currently the sheets need to be handled like a jib. It also should make reefing easier if install a cheek block on the boom and set up jiffy reefing like on a bigger boat. The entire reefing process could then be done while seated near the mast, so no moving around in the boat in choppy windy conditions. I just finished the boom and test-fit rig on the boat at home but unfortunately didn't take a photo. It hasn't yet been tested it on the water.



IMG_3326.jpg


IMG_3019 (1).jpg

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

..." but the boomless rig even with full-length battens must be tacked downwind to keep the sails full."

Thanks Jack for your details! A few more questions, please...

l. Could you clarify what you mean about difficulty in keeping the sail full downwind?

I have the opposite problem with my nonbattened boomless sail. It bellows out mightily forward and once the sprit goes forward of the mast at all it gets exciting very quickly!

2 Could you reef without bringing the sail all the way down into the boat? Just to the reef points? Is the halyard able to function if lead back to the helmsman without going forward to the mast?

3 Do your battens do the same if they go forward of the mast causing the "death roll" or does the sail simply stall out like a Junk rig can slowing the boat too much?

4. Do you think the bendy c.f. mast as opposed to a wood stick effects keeping the sail full downwind? Or the square top?

5. Would a single sheet to a single pulley/ rope horse at the stern (traditional) work with this sail? I've seen the double sheeting technique on the Ductwork's video which is what I assume you're referring to when you say yours is sheeted jib like?

There seems to be a fair amount of interest in the rig (and the Scout design itself) here. Greatly appreciate the pics and review!

Thanks again.
Cheers, DP

[WI-Tom]

..." but the boomless rig even with full-length battens must be tacked downwind to keep the sails full."

Thanks Jack for your details! A few more questions, please...

l. Could you clarify what you mean about difficulty in keeping the sail full downwind?

From my own experience with boomless sails, probably this:

A boom allows you to run the sail right out when running downwind, with the boom perpendicular to the boat. The boom holds the sail in this position, allowing the maximum surface of sail area to be deployed for catching the wind. You can duplicate this to some degree in a boomless rig by using an oar to push the clew of the sail farther outboard, and I do this sometimes, especially in light airs. The oar becomes a temporary boom.

As you already noted, with a boomless rig, if you ease the sheet that far, you have no way of holding the clew corner of the sail outboard. As a result, rather than the clew moving outboard, the sail simply bellies out when you ease the sheet, creating a giant bag of sail instead of a relatively flat wind-catching shape. The sail stays loose and saggy, and can create a big bag of wind when you'd rather have a wide flat wind-catching surface.

Another complication (which you also mentioned) is that, when you ease the sheet with a boomless sail, typically there is a LOT of sail twist. So, the tip of the yard (with a lugsail) moves farther than the clew of the sail. This means the tip of the yard moves so far that it moves forward of the mast. This is a very bad thing, as it can lead to a series of uncontrolled oscillations at frightening speed (the so-called "death roll"), often ending in a capsize to windward.

The only way to avoid this is to make sure that the tip of the yard never moves forward of the mast. That means you can't ease the sheet very far. In turn, that means that you are not able to expose much sail area to the wind, making downwind sailing less efficient with a boomless rig. In actual practice, you just can't ease the sheet very far at all if you want to avoid the "death roll."

Happily, none of this matters much at all. It's faster to "tack" downwind anyway, so there's no reason to sail dead downwind unless you're in a narrow channel.

Tom

[Jack Loudon]

Below are some responses to your comments. Please bear in mind that I have no previous experience with boomless rigs or tiny sailboats in general so my responses or proposed solutions must be tempered with this information.]

[Edit to add] I didn't see Tom's post above before sending my response, but he has vastly more experience so his comments should be taken far more seriously than mine!

..." but the boomless rig even with full-length battens must be tacked downwind to keep the sails full."

Thanks Jack for your details! A few more questions, please...

l. Could you clarify what you mean about difficulty in keeping the sail full downwind?

Downwind, the battens aren't flexible enough to keep the sail 'wung out' and the sheet leads back to the transom so if I let out the sheet the sail is billowy and alternately fills then goes slack, which makes for erratic progress. I hope my boom will cure this, especially since the end of the boom can be forward of the mast. I hope the boom won't cause more problems than it solves.

I have the opposite problem with my nonbattened boomless sail. It bellows out mightily forward and once the sprit goes forward of the mast at all it gets exciting very quickly!

2 Could you reef without bringing the sail all the way down into the boat? Just to the reef points? Is the halyard able to function if lead back to the helmsman without going forward to the mast?

The sail needs to be fully dropped, otherwise the wind, blowing across the beam, will blow clew end out over the water, unreachable. Jiffy reefing, with a cheek block would remedy this as it wouldn't matter if the boom end was unreachable, allowing the sail to be partially dropped (to the reef point),

3 Do your battens do the same if they go forward of the mast causing the "death roll" or does the sail simply stall out like a Junk rig can slowing the boat too much?

Maybe not a death roll, but alternately filling and going slack.

4. Do you think the bendy c.f. mast as opposed to a wood stick effects keeping the sail full downwind? Or the square top?

The CF mast isn't very bendy so I don't think it has much effect on that.

5. Would a single sheet to a single pulley/ rope horse at the stern (traditional) work with this sail? I've seen the double sheeting technique on the Ductwork's video which is what I assume you're referring to when you say yours is sheeted jib like?

Yes, my original sheeting arrangement was just like the Duckworks video. It's best if the sheet leads to the stern quarters for better sail shape (with boomless sail) when close hauled, but a sheet horse might work. My new boomed setup currently has the single sheet led to the rudder top, then through a pulley to the tiller, so I can grip the sheet and tiller with one hand. But the sheet leads to the center of the stern which is not as good as going to the stern corners.

There seems to be a fair amount of interest in the rig (and the Scout design itself) here. Greatly appreciate the pics and review!

Thanks again.
Cheers, DP

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

Below are some responses to your comments. Please bear in mind that I have no previous experience with boomless rigs or tiny sailboats in general so my responses or proposed solutions must be tempered with this information.]

[Edit to add] I didn't see Tom's post above before sending my response, but he has vastly more experience so his comments should be taken far more seriously than mine!

Thank you Jack and Tom. It seems that the level of batten flexibility makes the biggest difference in the "equation". I assumed that they were flexible enough to allow more sail curvature downwind and wondered about that, as the Duckworth's video, in very light air made them look pretty stiff but couldn't really tell without a windy demonstration.

I've been able to use a single sheet to a single pulley on a rope horse by using small spring clamps on the horse to keep the sheet in the stern corners. I'm experimenting until I decide whether or not to add thumb cleats along the rail for better sheeting angles until I change to another rig entirely.

Glad to hear that the c.f. mast isn't flexible enough to cause any issues. I wondered about that the day I plopped one into my dinghy at Duck Works to see if it would fit the step. Unfortunately there wasn't a sail on hand that day to see/feel the battens.

Yep. Letting the sprit go forward of the mast has only happened once! The immediacy of the jaw droppingly rapid "death roll" and deciding how to deal with it without capsizing in panic mode made me a downwind tack-er for life!

This is the only aspect so far of boomless mains that I dislike. I'm sure we'll all be very interested to hear how your boomed version works out (or not), Jack. (Especially the reefing).
Thanks again for standing up to the barrage of questions so well !

[dbp1]

In case people are interested, there is someone documenting a (very fast) build of a Scout on Facebook, posting in a group "West Coast Trailer Sailing Squadron [Florida]" but cross-posting them in the "Duckworks" group (searching Lonnie Black will probably find the posts for you).

[Paul356]

Just ordered one. Hoping to see the crate in c. 3 weeks. They had a nice sale over Tgiving and apparently were quite busy. I got the manual today, and it's as straightforward as it looks in the photos above. Lonnie in the West Coast Trailer Sailing FB group has been building one, moving along at a fast clip.

[dbp1]

Just ordered one. Hoping to see the crate in c. 3 weeks. They had a nice sale over Tgiving and apparently were quite busy. I got the manual today, and it's as straightforward as it looks in the photos above. Lonnie in the West Coast Trailer Sailing FB group has been building one, moving along at a fast clip.

I hope you'll document your build here, and even more, the sailing once you're done (as there is very little info available, though on paper seems like pretty ideal compromises for a cartoppable boat)

[Paul356]

I'll certainly try to document. I still need to figure out posting pictures on this site. I'm starting to build my work table now, where the long pieces get laid out, scarfed/finger-jointed, glassed, etc. Lots of glassing and epoxy-coating on this one. Can't wait. Cartop-ability was a big factor. I have other boats, but I'm hoping the quick launch here will get me on the water more often. Plus, "you can never have too many boats," and this time I have access to a heated shop so I can be building during the winter.

[WI-Tom]

I'll certainly try to document. I still need to figure out posting pictures on this site.

1. Store the photos on your computer as jpeg files.
2. Start a new post on the WBF.
3. When you're ready, hit the little "IMAGE" button (it looks like a little image of tree, 3rd button from right on the menu bar when writing/editing a WBF post).
4. A dialogue box labelled "INSERT IMAGE" opens up. Make sure the "From Computer" tab is set, and a "Choose File" button will appear.
5. Hit the "Choose File" button. This will let you browse files on your computer. Find the photo you want and click it. You'll see the INSERT IMAGE dialogue box again.
6. The file name of the photo you chose will now appear just to the right of the "Choose File" button.
7. Click the words "Upload File(s)" (it doesn't look like a button, but you can click there) which appear just below the "Choose File" button.
8. Your photo is now in the post you are writing, at the position where your cursor was when you hit the "IMAGE" button.

It can help to resize photos to a small size--the WBF software doesn't seem to like big photos, and they sometimes won't post, or will post now and disappear later.

Hope this helps!

Tom

[wend]

luomanen, have you taken your Scout out on the bay, or do you consider it a boat mostly for more protected waters?

[Paul356]

Thanks, Wisconsin Tom, wherever you are. That technique is much easier than what I remember from ages ago. I should be able to resize in the saving with a program I have.
Waiting for that dang box to arrive...

[Dinghy Pipedreams]

I'm looking very forward to hearing more feedback (when you get there)- on the Scout sail's abilities and if owners are happy with the battened "pram" style sail on all points of sail and reefed, etc.
Any builders have the rig and are trying it on another already in the "stable" vessel while they're building their Scout? Feedback on this particular sail/rig has been very scanty so far with only one member here who's tried/owns one so far so it would be great to see what others think or have done to make it work better/best for them.

Jack Louden's feedback above, is the only detailed review most of us have seen so far and it would be great to hear from more sailers who are perhaps sailing in challenging waters like the Bay Area, etc.

Looking forward to watching these builds too.

[Paul356]

I'm eagerly awaiting that big box. Meanwhile I've made some sawhorses and I'm getting ready to set up the worktable. I hope to be ready to sail by ice-out next spring. Anticipation......

[Paul356]

My kit is now scheduled to arrive next Wednesday. That's 31 days after ordering. Not too bad at all, especially considering Christmas falls in there, and they apparently had a great deal of business early on with their "Black Friday" sale over Thanksgiving weekend. In any event, it's on the way, FedEx says. The big box weighs only 58 pounds. Details when the box arrives!

[Paul356]

Fed Ex delays. Kit now due Thursday or Friday.

[Paul356]

The fun begins. The first boxes arrived, and inside we find fiberglass cloth, the sail and spar and (not pictured) a box of neat parts and a box of epoxy. The big kit box is supposed to arrive later today, but we'll see. (I also need to make sure I have this loading-pictures-thing down right.)
Boxes.jpgSail and glas.jpg

[Paul356]

Ok, well you wanted pictures:

this is what the kit box looks like. 7.5 feet long, 1.5 feet high, 58 pounds, two rope handles, stuffed with CNC-cut plywood and foam pieces

kit box.jpg

To wit:

inside box.jpg

The next step was building the work table. I built these sawhorses earlier (copied the "Burro" model), and used some scrap 2x4s and some particle board I had left over from the shipping crate from my last build 9 years ago. I put two layers of polyurethane 3 mil film on the top. It is 11 feet long and 40" wide, dictated mostly by materials on hand and by space available at the shop where I'm set up.

beginning work table.jpg

And at long last, I was able to start actual construction. I epoxied together the six planks, which come with CNC-cut finger joints. This gave me a chance to try out the table, try out my gluing technique and check out the epoxy with the fast hardener. Results tomorrow, but it all looks good. There are a number of other finger-jointed pieces to put together, and virtually everything gets laminated on one or both sides with fiberglas set in epoxy.

first glue up.jpg

[Autonomous]

Subscribed.

[dbp1]

keep the pics coming

[Liberty53]

Awesome!
Thanks for the photos of the build.
-Derek

[Paul356]

The puzzle joints require sanding after epoxy is dry. The joint below is sanded, the one above is how it came out of the stack and awaits sanding. Sanding takes just a few minutes. I tried 100 grit and 80 grit, will probably stick with 80, since it was slightly faster and seemed just as smooth. I was worried about sanding through the first ply, but that did not turn out to be a problem, since I was careful to bang home the joint teeth with a mallet and wood block and get them as flush as possible. The joint seems amazingly strong, and it will be laminated on one or both sides with fabric in any event, depending on the piece.

sanding joints.jpg

[Paul356]

I thought I would tackle the transom next, since it would be a good test for laminating foam to plywood. Per the kit instructions, I coated the foam with QuickFair so the neat epoxy would not soak in. Another option will be to coat foam with epoxy thickened with microballoons to mayonnaise consistency. Given how much QuickFair it took to handle the transom, I assume I will be using microballons at some point in the future. In any event, I coated the foam, put neat epoxy on the doubler, put the coated side of the foam on the doubler, coated the other side of the foam, put neat epoxy on the transom itself (in way of the doubler only) and fit it all together with the dowel keys provided, all in one shot. That is, I didn't wait for the QuickFair to dry before assembly. Clamped it the best I could, and it turned out well. The final shot shows the transom propped up on the bottom, where it will fit in place with tabs and slots. The edges of the transom will be beveled to fit the planks and bottom, and then all the edges will get treated with neat epoxy to seal, multiple coats.

One thing I'm learning is that the plywood is so thin and flexible it needs clamping over as much of the surface as possible to hold it flat while the glue dries, so I'll be using boards and blocks and planks under the clamps to try to reach the edges of the plywood and get everything to lie down flat. But the transom seems good.

This closeup shows the transom sandwich: ply transom, foam, ply doubler. The ply is only 4mm, but it all feels very stiff after glueup.

transom lam closeup.jpg

The finished lamination:

transom lam done.jpg

And a quick look at positioning, for fun:

transom position.jpg

[Autonomous]

I'm a huge fan of using a cabinet scraper on green epoxy vs. sanding. It saves time, expensive sandpaper and eliminates epoxy dust. Likely after the scraper you will find areas that need touched up with sandpaper, but you are still way ahead of the game.

[Paul356]

Then it was on to try my hand at laminating cloth and, new for me, using peel ply on the cloth. Let's just say I'm learning.

One thing I discovered right away is that the Fast hardener for the Raka epoxy that came with the kit is REALLY fast. I had the option of fast or slow and chose fast, thinking our shop is usually pretty chilly. I guess it's maybe 60 to 65 this year. Well, the epoxy is going off pretty quick. (DW's epoxy page notes that the more expensive SilverTip epoxy has a longer pot life, even though it sets up in the same time. So I guess what I'm saying is the Raka Fast mix doesn't have much pot life).
This made the laminating and especially the use of the peel ply difficult. It would take 8 squirts of resin, 4 of hardner, to get enough mix to laminate glass onto one of the 11' planks, but the epoxy would be going off by the time I finished, and I don't think I would be able to get the peel ply onto the plank, as suggested, while the epoxy was still wet. I learned this on the first plank, which I actually did in two shots. I'm not sure the photo shows it, but the peel ply is not fully saturated throughout. Call this Plan A.

I am pretty good, imho, at laminating glass to bare wood and pulling the epoxy clean to leave the weave showing through, but use of the peel ply (per instructions in the kit and advice elsewhere) calls for leaving say 15% more epoxy on the board than a "clean" 'glass lamination, and I was having trouble achieving this smoothly before the epoxy kicked. Plus, it turns out the peel ply is extremely difficult to cut with a scissors or razor knife. It's like ballistic nylon. It did cut a little easier if I swerved just a bit from pure vertical, so we'll see. That remains a problem. If anyone has good tips on cutting peel ply, pls let me know.

Plank 2, and Plan B: I cut the PP in half at the midpoint, and treated it as two applications. This went better, since by doing the plank as two applications I could get the first half of PP on the plank while the epoxy was still workable, then turn to the second half. After those two planks, the shop was closing up for the day. So the 3d and 4th planks will wait until Monday.

Plans C and D:

C: Put the 'glass cloth on in the "normal" way, that is, with minimal epoxy and the weave showing through. Come back later (an hour?) and put a modicum more epoxy on and then add the peel ply. This is the technique Eric from Off Center Harbor used in his video. D: Get some slow Raka harder (already ordered) to mix in probably half and half with the fast hardener and use either Plan B ('glass and PP all at once) or Plan C (two step) and see what's what.

I do want to come up with a workable arrangement, since a key component of this whole boat is laminating glass onto plywood, including on both sides of many parts, and a key component in my vision of the build is to use PP followed by minimal additional final coating in order to keep weight down while achieving a smooth final coat.

This photo shows the first two planks. At left is the initial "Plan A" plank with probably moderate peel ply success, and the second shows what I think is satisfactory peel ply application, although there will be a small glitch to sand smooth somewhere in the middle, except it was a fast-paced pain with the epoxy seemingly always on the verge of kicking.

first plank lam.jpg

[Paul356]

Slight progress report: I used Plan B, a minimal first layer to hold down the 'glas, followed a bit later by another layer upon which to lay the peel-ply. That worked well. Also, I rolled on the second layer, and it was so much faster and smoother than using a spreader that I think I will be rolling all layers from now on, despite the slightly higher cost involved. I used a 4" white foam roller, the skinny kind that fits on a bent wire rod.

And, on the issue of cutting peel-ply, a big duh. I tried my old flimsy office scissors, a cheap Fiskars knockoff. scissors.jpg
They worked great. So no issues there any longer. I thought my fancy metal sewing shears from days of yore would be the berries, but they are no longer an option.

On the peel-ply itself: I really recommend it. It pulled up a very substantial second layer of resin above the 'glas weave - perhaps 1 mm - and left a finely textured surface to which I can now apply the first coat of primer for painted surfaces or a thin finish coat of epoxy for bright surfaces. The panels feel strong and sure. The only sanding I envision will be to smooth out little blebs. But as you can see, it's taking a while to work out good technique.

Laminating is progressing and more pictures soon.

[dbp1]

Looking good!