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Thread: Brexit - the never ending tale

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    You may all paint me as you wish, but please, if you think I am a Brexiteer, provide ONE SINGLE quote from me to support that theory. I assure you you will find none.

    Interesting that anyone with a balanced point of view is the enemy...
    Not 'the enemy' at all. However, somewhere along the line I have gained the impression that you are very much pro-brexit. I'm not about to trawl through all the old Brexit threads looking for quotes. Perhaps I got you mixed up with somebody else.
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    I really couldn't give two ****s about wetherspoons.

    It actually pisses me off that you lot, despite my efforts still refuse to have à balanced point of view and even worse label me as a Brexiteer. I have only ever given you a view that Brexit is not the démon you all apparently think it is.

    30% youth unemployment in Spain anyone?

    Italies national debt at 170% anyone?

    German federal control of everything? Don't kid yourself the EU is equal all around.

    Geonocide of 100,000 people 200km South of Munich in the 1990's anyone...? Wasn't the EU supposed to prevent that kind of nasty ****? Oh, they didnt sign a piece of paper? OK then... Let it happen.

    Loss of economic sovereignty of poorer states kow towing to the might of the the EU Bank? Care to explain to the Greeks how they can no longer live in their houses?

    Or why Spanish vaccum ships put Cornish (and Welsh PISN) fishermen out of business?


    I have way more to lose than any of you, I have lived in 4 different eu countries and stand to lose my work and business from Brexit, yet still remain sceptical. I live and speak 3 and a half European languages. I am more, European than any of you apparently, yet still am highly dubious about this forced federal experiment.


    There, seems to be no balanced factual debate about this issue at all here. I know the campaign was based on emotional pandering lies, but none of you have the erudition to dare to look 50 years into the future and foretell what you see, so here's hoping you might just try, and report back what you see.

    Or are you just in love with the habit you grew up with?

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    The thing is, none of you lot see Europe for what it is. You all see Europe as à big market... Something useful for the UK. I see it as dozens of completely different and ancient cultures forced together by a flimsy contract most of them were dragged into, started by a good idea, tariff free steel trade, but accelerated beyond recognition into the eu.

    You all see it in terms of what it can give to the UK, which is a lot, but ignore the ideas of what Europe as a whole loses, which is bigger.
    Last edited by lupussonic; 12-22-2020 at 05:29 PM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    I'm not pro Brexit Isla, more anti EU.

    But,

    Pro Europe. I live love and breathe, Europe, celebrate it and have lived in it since I was 8 years old.

    Theres à différence, it's complex and takes effort to understand, beyond the Black and white simplicity of tabloid UK journalism.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    And certainly beyond any visible attempt to explain.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Eight words this time PISN, that's progress for you I suppose.

    Care to expand? Or are you going to leave us on that dazzling high there?

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I'm not pro Brexit Isla, more anti EU.
    Because Europe was doing so well before the EU...

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    [...]
    I [...] stand to lose my work and business from Brexit, [...]
    If I understand this rightly, that was my concern long ago. Sorry to hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I am moving to France, where I will sell my wares to the UK, and the rest of Europe in equal measure. [...]
    I was asking myself wat means "ware" while I was thinking your business is providing service.

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    [...]
    Interesting that anyone with a balanced point of view is the enemy...
    Everyone or nearly everyone will estimate her or his point of view "balanced", other people may disagree.
    Gruß, Günter

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post

    It actually pisses me off that you lot, despite my efforts still refuse to have à balanced point of view and even worse label me as a Brexiteer. I have only ever given you a view that Brexit is not the démon you all apparently think it is.
    Not so many open minded here. If you do not take a side, they will pick one for you. Much wrong with the EU, but the amount of EU supported projects in the UK that was not funded by UK councils in deprived areas was something noticable.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    It's only fair to say, that the EU can be further improved. And doing so may be a never ending quest. But a worthwhile quest as well. If you consider, that today - well, let's imagine a today without Covid - you can travel from the south of Spain or south of Italy to the north of Norway (Schengen, not EU) without visa, that is quite an acchievement. An acchievement, that a bit more than 100 years ago was pretty much unimagineable, that was unimagineable 80 years ago as well. Would it be a good idea to scrap the EU and such acchievements and go back to uncontrolled nation against nation in Europe?

    As for some of the tensions mentioned - yes, they exist. And they are not easy to overcome. One example: While some European countries have a background culture of low inflation, this is not true for some other parts in the EU. Such differences in culture create tensions when you share a currency. True. The one side counts on inflation to pay of its debt while the other side counts on stable currency for old age savings. There are many such differences, creating many tensions. But giving up on trying to overcome these tensions would also mean giving up the acchievements.

    As for Greece - there are quite a number of people in Germany and elsewhere in norther Europe who have themselves or whose parents or grandparents have come from Greece. And they have stayed and are well integrated. One reason, why they have stayed, is, that they can work their way up in the countries they have choosen to live (certainly, they have not come for the weather). Which - for what I have read about Greece - may not have been and may still not be possible in Greece. From what I have read about Greece - corruption and lack of fair competition was or is a problem there. Which may explain a certain unwillingness in other countries to pump money into Greece. It is not, that there is no wealth in Greece. But its distribution is extremely unequal.

    Lupus, welcome to the EU. Are you going to change flag? A lot of formerly British EU residents have done in the past months.
    Last edited by Henning 4148; 12-23-2020 at 06:38 AM.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I really couldn't give two ****s about wetherspoons.

    It actually pisses me off that you lot, despite my efforts still refuse to have à balanced point of view and even worse label me as a Brexiteer. I have only ever given you a view that Brexit is not the démon you all apparently think it is.

    30% youth unemployment in Spain anyone?

    Italies national debt at 170% anyone?

    German federal control of everything? Don't kid yourself the EU is equal all around.

    Geonocide of 100,000 people 200km South of Munich in the 1990's anyone...? Wasn't the EU supposed to prevent that kind of nasty ****? Oh, they didnt sign a piece of paper? OK then... Let it happen.

    Loss of economic sovereignty of poorer states kow towing to the might of the the EU Bank? Care to explain to the Greeks how they can no longer live in their houses?

    Or why Spanish vaccum ships put Cornish (and Welsh PISN) fishermen out of business?


    I have way more to lose than any of you, I have lived in 4 different eu countries and stand to lose my work and business from Brexit, yet still remain sceptical. I live and speak 3 and a half European languages. I am more, European than any of you apparently, yet still am highly dubious about this forced federal experiment.


    There, seems to be no balanced factual debate about this issue at all here. I know the campaign was based on emotional pandering lies, but none of you have the erudition to dare to look 50 years into the future and foretell what you see, so here's hoping you might just try, and report back what you see.

    Or are you just in love with the habit you grew up with?
    "200km South of Munich in the 1990's" What? Does not compute.
    If you are alluding to the Yugoslav civil war, the EU has no authority over domestic politics, that is called Sovereignty. Nor foes the EU have an army that it can deploy for peace keeping, again Sovereignty of member states.

    Fishing rights. The British fishing industry sold its licences and quotas to foreign fleets, but you blame the EU. A bit of Boris's kipper in your argument.

    Greek bankruptcy? So you are saying that was not because the Greek national sport was tax avoidance on an epidemic scale?

    Seeing into the future? It is happening now. Panicky last minute ad campaign on the TV telling British businesses to prepare (in a fortnight over the Xmas bank holiday during Covid lockdown) for "Australian" Trade Deal by Jan 1st. Did you see the queues of lorries at Dover BEFORE France closed the border?
    How many businesses have left Britain for Europe already? I do beg your pardon, I have already pointed that out to you, post #9.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Yes Nick, Yugoslavia, where 100,000 people died, in Europe 200km South of Munich, not 50 years, after the end of WWII. Are you saying that the idea of the EU charter was only designed to stop one country genociding another, but internal domestic genocide in Europe is absolutely fine?

    How people buy or sell their fishing quotas above the table is one thing. Illegal fishing by breaking the rules is quite another. Every summer Spanish and French boats come to Cornwall, Mount's Bay, St. Ives Bay etc, and scoop up every damn fish in the sea. You will NOT catch anything for the rest of the year.

    You should look deeper into the Greek question, not only about why it got into difficulties but how it was treated by the EU and the World Bank afterwards. I lived there for 4 years, and still have many friends and contacts that give me information that is not posted on BBC media.

    Henning, I am considering my options, I fancy a change of work and base. The UK has for over two decades been an absolute rip off in property prices, and most of everything as far as consumer goods also. I find the workforce obstinate and often lazy, the culture often pessimistic and moaning, infrastructure abysmal, culture mostly lacking, and a frustrating appetite for right wing tabloid gutter journalism. The UK does make the best beer in the world under our grey skies however, so maybe I'll stay.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I'm not pro Brexit Isla, more anti EU.
    So I didn't have to trawl through the old brexit threads, Anti-EU says it all really.
    Essentially you are opposed to the idea of European nations joining a unified trading bloc, with laws, regulations and policies decided in a European parliament, made up of elected members from the various countries. You would prefer that each nation be in control of its own laws, regulations and policies, decided in their own elected parliaments. That is essentially a nationalist ideology, and when applied to the UK = pro-Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post

    30% youth unemployment in Spain anyone?
    Would leaving the EU fix Spain's youth unemployment problem? Almost certainly not, because it has been an issue since long before the EU came into existence.

    From a paper published in 2011..
    The unemployment rate among the active population under 25 years old has doubled that of the over-25s for the last four decades.

    Which suggests the problem existed in the early 1970s. Spain joined the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1986. The EU as we know it today came into existence in 1993.
    Much of the blame for high youth unemployment has been attributed to Spain's poor education policy..

    Spain stands out for its high early school leaving rate, which is taken to be the percentage of the population between 18 and 24 that has not completed higher secondary education (or second stage secondary education) and that is not participating in any kind of training.

    Bear in mind that nation states are responsible for their own education policies.
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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    I want to see a United Europe.

    The past few years have pretty much cured me of the belief that Britain is in some way “better” than other nations.
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  15. #50
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    The UK has for over two decades been an absolute rip off in property prices, and most of everything as far as consumer goods also. I find the workforce obstinate and often lazy, the culture often pessimistic and moaning, infrastructure abysmal, culture mostly lacking, and a frustrating appetite for right wing tabloid gutter journalism.
    Sounds like you'd be quite comfortable here if you came to the U.S.!

    Except you'd find out what "abysmal infrastructure" really means. Public transit? Forget it, except maybe in a few of our larger cities; nothing like the UK's lovely rail options. Health care? Nope, unless you're wealthy.

    And culture "mostly lacking"? I can assure you that is NOT how the UK is viewed from here by those who have been there.

    The grass is always greener, I guess. Except sometimes, it's really not.

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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Yes Nick, Yugoslavia, where 100,000 people died, in Europe 200km South of Munich, not 50 years, after the end of WWII. Are you saying that the idea of the EU charter was only designed to stop one country genociding another, but internal domestic genocide in Europe is absolutely fine?

    How people buy or sell their fishing quotas above the table is one thing. Illegal fishing by breaking the rules is quite another. Every summer Spanish and French boats come to Cornwall, Mount's Bay, St. Ives Bay etc, and scoop up every damn fish in the sea. You will NOT catch anything for the rest of the year.

    You should look deeper into the Greek question, not only about why it got into difficulties but how it was treated by the EU and the World Bank afterwards. I lived there for 4 years, and still have many friends and contacts that give me information that is not posted on BBC media.

    Henning, I am considering my options, I fancy a change of work and base. The UK has for over two decades been an absolute rip off in property prices, and most of everything as far as consumer goods also. I find the workforce obstinate and often lazy, the culture often pessimistic and moaning, infrastructure abysmal, culture mostly lacking, and a frustrating appetite for right wing tabloid gutter journalism. The UK does make the best beer in the world under our grey skies however, so maybe I'll stay.
    For an European your geography is out by a factor of 4, hence the confusion that you created.
    You also fail to understand the role of the body that you are criticizing. The EU is about fair trade and easy movement of workers, it does not have any influence in politics, it is about commerce. It does not have any means nor the power to stop a civil war, that is not its remit.
    Fishing rights? We do not own the big boats licences, we sold them, so we cannot stop them fishing here, how can we stop a boat that owns the licence to fish our waters from doing so?
    Greece, what would you have had the EU and World Bank do? Wash their hands of Greece and let the nation collapse into anarchy?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #52
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Yes Nick, Yugoslavia, where 100,000 people died, in Europe 200km South of Munich, not 50 years, after the end of WWII. Are you saying that the idea of the EU charter was only designed to stop one country genociding another, but internal domestic genocide in Europe is absolutely fine?
    There you are repeating a right-wing nationalist mantra that "They said a unified Europe would prevent future wars in Europe, then we had the Balkans, so they were wrong".
    The EU as we know it was just coming into existence at the time of the genocide you mention, and at the start of the conflict it was still the European Community (EC), which was created in 1957 as a way to foster trade cooperation and reduce tensions in the aftermath of World War II..
    As an economic and trading bloc, I'm not sure what 'muscle' they were expected to exercise to prevent a war in the Balkans.

    Perhaps you should read this, then explain to us what more the EC or EU, as a trade and economic bloc, could have done.

    How Britain and the US decided to abandon Srebrenica to its fate..
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-massacre-1995
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Thank you for putting those words in my mouth Isla.

    I had the opportunity to vote in the referendum, but chose not to, not out of laziness or apathy, but out of it being such a hugely complicated question concerning the next 50 to 100 years, and ultimately this question involves the whole world (America, China, Russia, the ME, and the politics, and forces at play there) not just Europe.

    I'm not a nationalist, I realise that Europe is an ancient, deep and vastly diverse collection of greatly different peoples and cultures however, and a federal state of Europe governing all is doomed to be a beaucratic Tower of Babel that only pleases the fortunate and does not work for the others. I thought this first in 1985, having lived there since a child and travelled all over Europe.

    I think a common bond covering certain things for Europe is a good thing.. NATO, workers rights, environmental laws etc, and yes, I would go back to individual trade agreements that can be streamlined and made fair for everyone. But it has snowballed too big and too fast into a hotchpotch of half baked blanket ideas that is not as tidy as pro EU people make out... Hence my comment about Spain. It really doesn't work for everyone all the time.

    If you want to call me a nationalist be my guest.. It does put me in the same area as racist ignorant St. George waving thugs however, which is not the case.

    I'm a curious example I suppose a UK national on paper, living and working in Europe looking back a cross the Channel.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Hence my comment about Spain. It really doesn't work for everyone all the time.
    Isla laid out the issues behind Spain's unemployment for you.
    The EU respects nations sovereignty, and cannot enforce needful changes in behaviour.
    I was delegated to attend a conference in Trieste organised by the Shipbuilding part of the Economic and Social Committee : https://www.eesc.europa.eu/en/tags/shipbuilding that was called to discuss training for the industry. Ironically the British delegate to the top table bottled out as he was notorious for refusing to support any training in his travel to work area for his yards future. The EU can lead, it can and does facilitate, but it cannot mandate on everything.
    Boris's kipper again. Do not blame the EU for sovereign states failures.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    One wonders why the rest of Europe would want the UK in the EU. By lupussonic's logic it is a drag: terrorism, racism, Irish "troubles", driving on the wrong side, an undemocratic Queen, slow trains, refuge for cleptocrats, Gibraltar, the Falklands, a more viral strain of covid...

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    One wonders why the rest of Europe would want the UK in the EU.

    Every country has issues, and UK fits right in. There's a continuous discussion on where EU should go, towards a tighter integration with less sovereignity or not. My preference is to keep EU fairly loose to better allow variations between countries. This is more or less the official Swedish standpoint and we all tend to march in step (one of our many issues).
    Anyway, EU doesn't have any military muscles. That's NATO's role. You shouldn't expect EU to intervene military in a non-EU country. We don't have the means and those kinds of actions are outside the EU charter. If someone failed except for the Yugoslavians themselves it's possibly NATO.
    My preference would be an integrated EU military arm and mutual guarantees like NATO, but that would be at the expence of a diminished NATO. My problem with NATO today is that I don't see the US as a reliable partner any more.

    /Erik


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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    My problem with NATO today is that I don't see the US as a reliable partner any more.
    Hang in there. The cavalry arrives 20 January.
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Why should NATO care about the feelings of a non-member?

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Why should NATO care about the feelings of a non-member?
    A sense of responsibility?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    A sense of responsibility?
    Then maybe Sweden should join NATO? Claiming that NATO is the military force when many of the EU members are not NATO members is a cop out.

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Greece, what would you have had the EU and World Bank do? Wash their hands of Greece and let the nation collapse into anarchy?
    The accounting fraud to allow them to join in the first place was on behalf of the EU. There was also a rule about no bailouts for members, but that got side lined. If Turkey can wait 30+ years to become a hopefull EU member, then they could have waited for Greece to have its financial circumstances in a better place.

    Greece has since been gutted. That is on the EU. The tax evasion was well known to everyone before they joined. They call it due dilligence, where was it, and where is Laguarde now?

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    ^ So, you too agree that it was entirely the Greek governments fault that they were on a path to disaster. Having joined the EU they continued down the same death spiral without fixing their problems. Yes?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Over here the media have started speculation that a trade deal is to be reached within hours.
    The white smoke is expected tomorrow. Lupussonic,isla and Nick can cool down in a country that can order EU approved bananas
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commis...C)_No._2257/94
    Last edited by dutchpp; 12-23-2020 at 02:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Then maybe Sweden should join NATO?

    That's my opinion together with quite a few others, but we're not yet a solid majority. It's the idea of collective security that I favour instead of each small nation going alone. NATO membership is better than staying non-aligned, but maybe a more European-centric solution would be better.

    We actually have quite substantial cooperation with NATO and don't pretend to be neutral. Contrary to our past position we've now stated that we will not stay neutral in case of an armed conflict in our neighbourhood. The step to a formalized defence treaty is quite small, but we have problems taking it.

    /Erik

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Over here the media have started speculation that a trade deal is to be reached within hours.
    The white smoke is expected tomorrow. Lupussonic,isla and Nick can cool down in a country that can order EU approved bananas
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commis...C)_No._2257/94
    I was about to suggest, with Christmas just around the corner, that we have a truce. Virtual handshakes all round, agree to disagree, and we will see next year what lies in store for us.
    What say you, Martin and Nick?
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ^ So, you too agree that it was entirely the Greek governments fault that they were on a path to disaster. Having joined the EU they continued down the same death spiral without fixing their problems. Yes?
    When Greece had its own currency, they could print themselves out of trouble, much like the US is doing now. The EU let them join knowing there was already a problem, and also removing their own ability to bail themselves out. Its hard to believe it was not intentional.

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale



    "The BBC reports some 2,850 trucks have been stranded since the border closure. The Dover port handles around 10,000 trucks daily or about 20 percent of the UK’s trade. Trucks were redirected to nearby Manston Airport during the border shutdown. The airport was prepared to hold 4,000 trucks and the views of waiting trucks are absolutely staggering."

    https://jalopnik.com/uk-airfield-bec...ver-1845941016

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    I was about to suggest, with Christmas just around the corner, that we have a truce. Virtual handshakes all round, agree to disagree, and we will see next year what lies in store for us.
    What say you, Martin and Nick?

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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    I was about to suggest, with Christmas just around the corner, that we have a truce. Virtual handshakes all round, agree to disagree, and we will see next year what lies in store for us.
    What say you, Martin and Nick?
    I'm always happy to be cordial, but wasnt aware we were at war.

    I am presently in Southern Africa, and have been for a month. The tensions between the Bantu, Ovambu, Bushmen, Himbah and of course the Whites be they from Scotland, Netherlands or English are ever present and standout even in the smallest interaction. Your comment about me being a nationalist has got me thinking about our debate.. Is it a bad thing to be called a nationalist? Is it out of fashion to live and identify where you are from? Is an English nationalist bad, and a Scottish nationalist good? We are by our very nature tribal and to deny that is like asking a cow to stop chewing the cud... I celebrate and respect different countries differences. You might say I'm a realist, if any kind of 'ist' at all. People are tribal, it is in their DNA; forcing people to group together under one banner artificially never goes well.

    By the, way, I have 4 mixed race people in my family whom I love dearly, so there's one 'ist' I will fight to the last should anyone use that label against me.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Brexit - the never ending tale

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Over here the media have started speculation that a trade deal is to be reached within hours.
    The white smoke is expected tomorrow. Lupussonic,isla and Nick can cool down in a country that can order EU approved bananas
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commis...C)_No._2257/94
    You an advocate of reading the Daily Wail or Deadly Excess then? Just another but older form of Boris's kipper.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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