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Thread: Rolling Coal

  1. #1
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    Default Rolling Coal

    From the NYT (and Trump's own EPA), it seems that this is a thing:

    Illegal Tampering by Diesel Pickup Owners Is Worsening Pollution, E.P.A. Says

    WASHINGTON — The owners and operators of more than half a million diesel pickup trucks have been illegally disabling their vehicles’ emissions control technology over the past decade, allowing excess emissions equivalent to 9 million extra trucks on the road, a new federal report has concluded.

    The practice, described in a report by the Environmental Protection Agency’s Office of Civil Enforcement, has echoes of the Volkswagen scandal of 2015, when the automaker was found to have illegally installed devices in millions of diesel passenger cars worldwide — including about half a million in the United States — designed to trick emissions control monitors.

    But in this case no single corporation is behind the subterfuge; it is the truck owners themselves who are installing illegal devices, which are typically manufactured by small companies. That makes it much more difficult to measure the full scale of the problem, which is believed to affect many more vehicles than the 500,000 or so estimated in the report.

    In terms of the pollution impact in the United States, “This is far more alarming and widespread than the Volkswagen scandal,” said Drew Kodjak, executive director of the International Council on Clean Transportation, the research group that first alerted the E.P.A. of the illegal Volkswagen technology. “Because these are trucks, the amount of pollution is far, far higher,” he said.

    The E.P.A. focused just on devices installed in heavy pickup trucks, such as the Chevrolet Silverado and the Dodge Ram 2500, about 15 percent of which appear to have defeat devices installed. But such devices — commercially available and marketed as a way to improve vehicle performance — almost certainly have been installed in millions of other vehicles.

    [Continued]

    Here's the EPA report: https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttoo...82ad2/full.pdf
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    "commercially available and marketed as a way to improve vehicle performance"

    That's part of the solution, but it's the opertors own children and grandchildren that will pay the price. Along with everyone elses of course.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    And I will politicize it...I have had more than one diesel pickup with the aftermarket device that enables it to Spew massive amounts of black fumes on the drivers near and behind. Is it any coincidence that almost all of the vehicles doing this were flying large Trump Flags or had Trump stickers prominently displayed..just a coincidence, right?

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    A way to increase performance and blow smoke all over those of us who actually care about the environment
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    The article doesn’t say the defeat devices and the activity of “rolling coal” are the same.
    So while blowing unburned diesel out the tail pipe isn’t good it doesn’t sound like that’s what is going on here.

    from the article:

    At many state and municipal emissions inspections stations, inspectors do not actually test tailpipe emissions, explained Mr. Brooks. Instead, they use computers simply to get readings from a vehicle’s computer.

    With a defeat device, he said, “the computer on the truck tells the computer at the emissions station, everything’s fine.”

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Yeah... it's been a 'thing' for several years.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...t=Rolling+Coal
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    I had someone do that to me as I rode my bike along a 2-lane county road in Florida. He slowed down, then with a loud BLAT!, he left me in a cloud of black smoke. Maybe my reflective vest and flashing lights marked me as a Democrat.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    I fail to see why it shouldn't be illegal to make, install, or use such devices. Is that so damn hard?

    Bah. :-(
    Gerard>
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  9. #9
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    Default

    Rolling coal is nor the same as installing these performance enhancing chips ( which are also widely in use for cars,btw).

    Rolling coal is achieved by a device that the driver activates on demand for short duration. The devices in the op are passive and work all the time once they are installed.

    Kevib


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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    I see my post #11 on the other thread...jerk neighbor is still got a VERY loud diesel truck.He's like, 27 now, still acts like 16.
    He has a Culp sign in his BACK yard. (Culp was our RWW candidate for gov against Jay Inslee). Back yard , mind you...never had the stones to put it on the street, or maybe he stole it the day after election.
    Same guy was arrested a few years ago for carrying fake police lights...

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    From the NYT (and Trump's own EPA), it seems that this is a thing:

    Illegal Tampering by Diesel Pickup Owners Is Worsening Pollution, E.P.A. Says

    WASHINGTON — The owners and operators of more than half a million diesel pickup trucks have been illegally disabling their vehicles’ emissions control technology over the past decade, allowing excess emissions equivalent to 9 million extra trucks on the road, a new federal report has concluded.

    The practice, described in a report by the Environmental Protection Agency’s Office of Civil Enforcement, has echoes of the Volkswagen scandal of 2015, when the automaker was found to have illegally installed devices in millions of diesel passenger cars worldwide — including about half a million in the United States — designed to trick emissions control monitors.

    But in this case no single corporation is behind the subterfuge; it is the truck owners themselves who are installing illegal devices, which are typically manufactured by small companies. That makes it much more difficult to measure the full scale of the problem, which is believed to affect many more vehicles than the 500,000 or so estimated in the report.

    In terms of the pollution impact in the United States, “This is far more alarming and widespread than the Volkswagen scandal,” said Drew Kodjak, executive director of the International Council on Clean Transportation, the research group that first alerted the E.P.A. of the illegal Volkswagen technology. “Because these are trucks, the amount of pollution is far, far higher,” he said.

    The E.P.A. focused just on devices installed in heavy pickup trucks, such as the Chevrolet Silverado and the Dodge Ram 2500, about 15 percent of which appear to have defeat devices installed. But such devices — commercially available and marketed as a way to improve vehicle performance — almost certainly have been installed in millions of other vehicles.

    [Continued]

    Here's the EPA report: https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttoo...82ad2/full.pdf
    Rattling the teacups.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    The article doesn’t say the defeat devices and the activity of “rolling coal” are the same.
    So while blowing unburned diesel out the tail pipe isn’t good it doesn’t sound like that’s what is going on here.

    from the article:

    At many state and municipal emissions inspections stations, inspectors do not actually test tailpipe emissions, explained Mr. Brooks. Instead, they use computers simply to get readings from a vehicle’s computer.

    With a defeat device, he said, “the computer on the truck tells the computer at the emissions station, everything’s fine.”
    Oh... so it's an inaccurate thread title, eh? That's... unfortunate.

    After reading, it seems to be in the same vein - just not as visibly obvious. Perverse sabotage of clean-air measures... just without the YeeHAW factor.
    David G
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Wow. How about getting edumicated a bit before making dumb statements.

    "chipping' a diesel is not even vaguely similar to 'rolling coal". The former is to improve performance & the latter is simply to blow out clouds of black smoke.

    There are a bunch of tuning kits available - from a mild performance increase to "if you run it for long it'll kill the motor". As said above, they are available for gas engines as well - and I bet a lot more of those have been installed & have the potential to cause more pollution than the diesel ones because there are so many more.

    A friend put a mild one on his Dodge Cummins P/U. Cost $300 & bumped his mileage on the highway from 18 to 21. Loaded mileage (trailer with 6K lbs) went from 11 to 15. Those are significant # differences. So - the owner is saving money & buying less fuel. That means less fuel is being sold, so less is being refined. Did they factor that in? Refining is a heavy polluter.

    Not saying it's right, but it sure is a lot different from what's being portrayed on this thread.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Didn't they used to measure tailpipe gasses?
    Obviously, that could be defeated by changing back to the correct chip for the test, but might solve some of the problem, especially for second, or more, owners who may not even know the chip is in the truck.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    I'da thought an engine tuned to get better mileage would be more efficient and therefore pollute less.
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Around here, every other truck is a diesel SuperDuty or Duramax or Cummings Ram, Eastern Shore Caddilacs, but I have never seen rolling coal.
    Steve Martinsen

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    What does it cost to a) modify the truck to do the belch, and b) operate it while belching?

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    I suspect the diesel performance enhancement devices have a similar effect to the VW cheater code when not running in test mode: NOx emissions go up a lot. CO and hydrocarbons are still very low, or even lower than before, so fuel efficiency is very good.

    Diesel smoke is actually fine particulate matter. Really bad stuff to breathe, but it doesn't show up as gaseous air pollution, as it is tiny particles of carbon.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Quote Originally Posted by SMARTINSEN View Post
    Around here, every other truck is a diesel SuperDuty or Duramax or Cummings Ram, Eastern Shore Caddilacs, but I have never seen rolling coal.
    If there are no Prius's or hippies on bicycles to blacken,then there is no point

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Rednecks. Who needs them?

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Oh... so it's an inaccurate thread title, eh? That's... unfortunate.

    After reading, it seems to be in the same vein - just not as visibly obvious. Perverse sabotage of clean-air measures... just without the YeeHAW factor.
    Yeah, yer a smart feller. Accuracy matters.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Wow. How about getting edumicated a bit before making dumb statements.

    "chipping' a diesel is not even vaguely similar to 'rolling coal". The former is to improve performance & the latter is simply to blow out clouds of black smoke.

    There are a bunch of tuning kits available - from a mild performance increase to "if you run it for long it'll kill the motor". As said above, they are available for gas engines as well - and I bet a lot more of those have been installed & have the potential to cause more pollution than the diesel ones because there are so many more.

    A friend put a mild one on his Dodge Cummins P/U. Cost $300 & bumped his mileage on the highway from 18 to 21. Loaded mileage (trailer with 6K lbs) went from 11 to 15. Those are significant # differences. So - the owner is saving money & buying less fuel. That means less fuel is being sold, so less is being refined. Did they factor that in? Refining is a heavy polluter.

    Not saying it's right, but it sure is a lot different from what's being portrayed on this thread.
    Good info - but are you saying that some/all of the chipping results in a net benefit? That modified vehicles will still meet the pollution standards?

    Skeptical here. If that were true... why wouldn't the mfgr's just send them out the door with the software set up that way?? Something doesn't add up, and your leading with snark might be precipitous...
    Last edited by David G; 11-27-2020 at 08:46 PM.
    David G
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Quote Originally Posted by __floater__ View Post
    Rednecks. Who needs them?
    they are all the farmers that feed you.
    Steve Martinsen

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Good info - but are you saying that some/all of the chipping results in a net benefit? That modified vehicles will still meet the pollution standards?

    Skeptical here. If that were true... why wouldn't the mfgr's just send them out the door with the software set up that way?? Something doesn't add up, and your leading with snark might be precipitous...
    Please read the last line of my post - aka please read the whole thing.

    As mentioned above, better mileage does not always mean lower pollution - particularly NOx (can you say VW?). However - better mileage does mean offsetting pollution from refineries - so that needs to be factored in.

    The snark was in regards to people equating "rolling coal" with folks who want better power/mileage. Rolling coal is purely dumping un-/partially burned fuel into the air for visual effect. Not only does in not increase power, it reduces it & absolutely kills mileage.

    I spent years working with a group on developing higher MPG cars. One of the most frustrating things is that - in gas vehicles as well as diesel - higher MPG almost always means higher NOx. Obviously, making cars lighter & more aerodynamic is a way to get better mileage without increasing NOx - I'm referring to increasing mileage by making engine changes.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Please read the last line of my post - aka please read the whole thing.

    As mentioned above, better mileage does not always mean lower pollution - particularly NOx (can you say VW?). However - better mileage does mean offsetting pollution from refineries - so that needs to be factored in.

    The snark was in regards to people equating "rolling coal" with folks who want better power/mileage. Rolling coal is purely dumping un-/partially burned fuel into the air for visual effect. Not only does in not increase power, it reduces it & absolutely kills mileage.

    I spent years working with a group on developing higher MPG cars. One of the most frustrating things is that - in gas vehicles as well as diesel - higher MPG almost always means higher NOx. Obviously, making cars lighter & more aerodynamic is a way to get better mileage without increasing NOx - I'm referring to increasing mileage by making engine changes.
    Gotcha. Clear now. I read the last line. I read it all. It wasn't clear you were agreeing with some of the critique while attempting to be more accurate/nuanced with other parts.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    I fail to see why it shouldn't be illegal to make, install, or use such devices. Is that so damn hard?

    Bah. :-(
    It is, but it’s not enforced.

    And these modified Bro Dozers pollute far more than a Tdi Golf.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    I hate those idiots. I run older diesel vehicles that don't need emission inspection in Maryland. These jerks are going to bring down the boom on all of us. I watched one of them, stack thru the hood, blind himself with smoke and rear end the car in front of him. Utter stupidity.
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Is it difficult to measure tailpipe emissions? Since the onboard computers are evidently so easy to hack.

    That seems like a quick, non-ideological fix.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    Is it difficult to measure tailpipe emissions? Since the onboard computers are evidently so easy to hack.

    That seems like a quick, non-ideological fix.

    Seattle used to have mandatory biannual emissions testing. It got shut down a couple years back.

    When I moved to Seattle, the test procedure was to put a probe in the exhaust pipe and attach a cable to the OBD II port in your car (assuming it had one). Then you ran a course on the dynamometer.

    You flunked if the probe measured exhausted gases that that were out of spec, or, if the OBD II port reported any error codes.

    5 or 8 years back, the exhaust probe was eliminated, and so long as the OBD II port had nor error codes, you were good.

    They finally killed it a couple years back.

    If you're going to test emissions... perhaps you should actually measure emissions.

    Doesn't matter if something is reporting an error, what matters is that you're not pumping cr@p into the air.

    If a required something isn't working right, perhaps you should get an equipment violation, with an order to fix it forthwith or, pay the [expensive] fine and still have to fix it.
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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    I’ve had several Highly modified gas (petrol) powered vehicles. One was pre OBD2, and as such was subject to a sniff test in Atlanta. It easily passed. In fact the tester said it was one of the cleaner vehicles he’d seen.
    A balanced and blueprinted engine, well tuned. Performance can be clean.
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Cost. Testing equipment for Hydrocarbons & Carbon Monoxide is cheap. Equipment for Nitrous Oxides is expensive - as are dynomometers.

    You can't smell NOx. A high performance motor may do really well in HC & CO (HC is what you smell) - but be awful on NOx.

    As far as "enforcing" goes - many of the power/mileage enhancement units are a black box the flashes the vehicle's computer - so there is nothing that stays on the vehicle & there's no sign that it's been done.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    A Diesel pickup "rolling coal" would only be driven by a Trump constituent.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    The rolling coal part would be some kind of injector valve for dumping diesel into the exhaust manifold, with a control in the cab, like an old manual choke?
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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    The rolling coal part would be some kind of injector valve for dumping diesel into the exhaust manifold, with a control in the cab, like an old manual choke?
    It's most commonly done by changing the amount of fuel the injectors dump into the cylinder. This is done by mods to the computer.

    Of course it uses huge amounts of fuel, but it can also damage the engine. What's $3K of engine damage when you piss off some liberals & be cool at the same time?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Rolling Coal

    One of the idiots who trapped my family behind the chump roadblock was revving his engine and pumping out black smoke; from huge vertical smoke stacks like a semi tractor, in the bed of his pickup truck.

    The black smoke billowing from his truck did nothing to fortify his political convictions when challenged with potential aggression.

    Impotent macho rage is hilarious, to me.

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