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Thread: Whetstone Set - recommendations

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    I'm a long way from being a neat-freak. But hope-to-shout George, you gotta clean that up a bit!

    Jeff
    The one bit of relief this pandemic isolation business has had for me is knowing you weren't going to stop by and see the disaster area my shop has become
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    I’d say George’s plane’s edge is more at risk from getting nicked by an errant metal bit when it is on its side than if it were on its sole.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    I'm with debenriver on both the choice of stones and which way to park planes.I also have a workshop that isn't a monument to tidiness.One of the best joiners I knew parked his planes right way up-but he did have a slim batten at the toe of the plane to keep the sharp iron off the actual bench surface.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    I'm a long way from being a neat-freak. But hope-to-shout George, you gotta clean that up a bit!

    Jeff
    Yeah – I'm not the tidiest of workers .... but the screw boxes are all organized .....
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Among my customer base are a number of schools tech teachers. Its not uncommon for them to have 40 hand planes and double that many chisels in their tool racks and those need sharpening about every second week. Its pretty normal to take 20 minutes to get a reasonable edge on a Stanley no 4, thats strip it, regrind the bevel, and put the micro bevel on, reassemble the plane checking that the cap iron is properly set, then set the plane to the appropriate depth of cut.
    20 minutes x 40 is way more than 13 hours, and thats before starting on the chisels.
    In effect that means that the students are working with blunt tools so the potential to love woodworking is lost.
    I teach the teachers a particular method, with particular equipment that doesnt cost a bomb.
    First, a cheap 8 in bench grinder, fitted with a 7 in long toolrest that I make and sell, ( very simple, its just a length of 1/4in x 1in mild steel bar fastened to the existing tool rest with a couple of cap screws ground off flush on top, and the bracket ground away to allow the forefinger to run back and forth along the near lower edge).
    The grinding wheel is a 140 grit soft bond aluminium oxide wheel, its dressed to stop glazing and to keep its face flat with a diamond dresser, the tee shaped one not the pointed one. No, because these wheels cut very cool, there is no need to dunk the blade in water to keep it from blueing. Just use very light pressure.

    Thats used to grind the main bevel, from there to the Japanese waterstone, thats an 800 grit one, and from there to the leather strop with green polishing compound on it. The strop being just a piece of split calf, rough side up glued to a piece of plywood with a bench hook on it, the plywood being about 18 in x 3in.
    The waterstone needs about four or five strokes, back, then front, the leather strop, about the same.
    That, with practice will give a shaving sharp edge in two or three minutes, then there is a couple of minutes to set the plane back up.
    Chisels of course dont take long to set up.
    There is some skill and practice required, but once those skills are there the job is easy, and very quick.
    In the schools where I've set them up with this system, there are Tormek and Scary Sharp grinders sitting dusty in the corners of the storerooms.
    I ran an "Essential Skills for the Beginner Boatbuilder" course last weekend, 7 students, we'd done the same course two weeks before and it had been oversubscribed so we ran it again, and there are enquiries for the new year which is encouraging. NZTBS.org.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    The girls have it right!
    (Taught the same way I was at about 10 years old, in a small shop with a stern but patient taskmaster!)
    I want one of those benches...
    *note the adjustable lighting and the chamfer work on the column

    Attachment 74220
    And do you know why columns and beams were always chamfered in old mill buildings?

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    And do you know why columns and beams were always chamfered in old mill buildings?
    yes...

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    And do you know why columns and beams were always chamfered in old mill buildings?
    Have some thoughts on this but never actually been told by anyone...

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Too bad they didn't know about that detail in the 13th century, it might have slowed or even prevented the start of Notre Dame's conflagration

    152BB70A-0CFC-47E2-B108-B4429504A3D7.jpg

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by sp_clark View Post
    Have some thoughts on this but never actually been told by anyone...
    Fire prevention.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Too bad they didn't know about that detail in the 13th century, it might have slowed or even prevented the start of Notre Dame's conflagration

    152BB70A-0CFC-47E2-B108-B4429504A3D7.jpg

    I used to have a carpentry book from the 1860's or so that detailed all those practices (and many more). It was quite an interesting book, it was even from before the invention of the spirit level. What was in use in that book was a wooden framed equilateral triangle of maybe 18 or so inches on a side, and more or less a keyhole opening cut in the middle of the bottom leg. There was effectively a plumb bob hung from the apex and your workpiece would be level when the plumb bob hung in the middle of the keyhole cut out.
    A lot of neat stuff in it. Sadly I lost track of the book and it must have disappeared during a move about 30 years ago.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Not to nit-pick – but the spirit level was invented in France in the 1660's and was in general use in Europe the 18th Century ....

    As a slight digression, we used to use a water level to set big boat hulls up level athwartships, using reference points on the sheer each side.

    But I never knew why columns etc were chamfered, other than to look attractive.

    George
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by debenriver View Post
    Not to nit-pick – but the spirit level was invented in France in the 1660's and was in general use in Europe the 18th Century ....

    As a slight digression, we used to use a water level to set big boat hulls up level athwartships, using reference points on the sheer each


    But I never knew why columns etc were chamfered, other than to look attractive.

    George

    ahh,... Thank you,... about the spirit level. Maybe they were a bit of an “up town” tool that not everyone could afford? ...I don’t know, but they were not referenced or pictured in that book.

    Beams and columns were always chamfered for fire prevention. When you remove the corner it takes a bit more for them to start burning in a fire. Similarly, all the beams that acted like floor joists and had their ends built into the stone and mortar side walls had their ends angled. That was so that if the mill caught on fire and the beams burned through and failed they would simply free fall into the building and not act like huge levers and lever the exterior walls out and knock them down as they fell.
    Last edited by nedL; 11-30-2020 at 07:47 PM.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    I helped build a porch onto a cabin once and we used a partly empty bottle of wine as a level. Does it qualify as a spirit level?

    Jeff

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    Fire prevention.
    Interesting...thanks for that!

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Garden hose with a couple lengths of clear tubing (makeshift water level) at each end serves nicely for leveling things that are really far apart. I used this for laying out the batter boards for the new foundation to a house I was remodeling back some 40 years ago. Cheap and effective as long as you make sure all the air's been pushed out of the length of hose.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Big production shops I have seen all had a sharpening station with wheels, either the old foot or hand cranked 2ft diameter 4in wide waterstone, or the more modern electric bench ginder. Rectangular stones on a bench I have only seen in small shops where every journeyman had his own stones, and in school where every bench had its stones and class started with sharpening.

    I believe the "lay it on its side" thing arrived with powerplanes, otherwise you have to wait for the blades to stop spinning and that is lost production time. Planes laying sideways are a safety hazard, you can cut yourself badly. One can use a felt or leaher pad for hard surfaces but that would be a rare occurrence, you normally have a piece of wood nearby, or the toolchest or the apron pocket. Nobody would just lay the plane on the floor where it can be kicked by mistake.
    Last edited by Rumars; 11-30-2020 at 10:40 PM.

  18. #53
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    Default Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Too bad they didn't know about that detail in the 13th century, it might have slowed or even prevented the start of Notre Dame's conflagration

    152BB70A-0CFC-47E2-B108-B4429504A3D7.jpg

    They did. Notre Dame's roof was "improved" in the 1720s-1730s, and rebuilt in the 1840s-1850s by Eugène Viollet-le-Duc.

    And even then, timber framers knew to chamfer the timbers.

    Whether or not they did... well, it was a government project, let out bid.

    [and I can say from looking at that, that that is NOT medieval timber framing].
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post

    I believe the "lay it on its side" thing arrived with powerplanes, otherwise you have to wait for the blades to stop spinning and that is lost production time. Planes laying sideways are a safety hazard, you can cut yourself badly. One can use a felt or leaher pad for hard surfaces but that would be a rare occurrence, you normally have a piece of wood nearby, or the toolchest or the apron pocket. Nobody would just lay the plane on the floor where it can be kicked by mistake.
    Hardly, I was taught to lay planes on their sides back in the sixties by an ancient woodwork teacher, here in the UK hand power planes even in a professional workshop were extremely rare back then.

    As for injuring yourself, well back then, you were worth a lot less than any plane..
    Just an amateur bodging away..

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Diamond slab, 400/1000.
    i wet it with water to carry away the filings out of the grit.

    I have used the thin cheap diamond plates but found they dull quickly, clearly not diamond.
    I stopped using oil, I just found it too oily.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by The Q View Post
    Hardly, I was taught to lay planes on their sides back in the sixties by an ancient woodwork teacher, here in the UK hand power planes even in a professional workshop were extremely rare back then.

    As for injuring yourself, well back then, you were worth a lot less than any plane..
    I was taught the "on the side" by my dad back in the sixties too. Don't know that he ever saw a power plane up to that time. He was not a tradesman by profession either.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Laying a plane on its side on a wooden bench is nonsense. Do you put your chisels bevel down so the edge doesnt touch the bench? Spokeshave upside down?
    Come on....

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    If it's not the powerplanes fault, then I don't know where the fashion originates. Because logic has nothing to do with it, iron damages wood, not the other way around. No bench will ever damage the plane.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Actually, I do put my chisels bevel down. Particularly when timber framing in green oak. The tannic acid in wet oak will rust/destroy the edge in the time it takes to eat a sandwich. The habit carries over to my bench work.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    Do you put your chisels bevel down so the edge doesnt touch the bench? Spokeshave upside down
    yes. Or hanging.

    if Wood didn’t wear edges we’d never need to sharpen.

    Here’s a drawing from 1895 showing things done both ways in the Hill Violin case shop (so, working with oaks as well as exotic woods)
    [img]https://i2.wp.com/stringsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Hill-Workshop.jpg[/img]
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 12-01-2020 at 06:04 PM.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Dalekid, you ask a clear question and you get a whole bunch of answers you didn't want.
    Welcome to the forum.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Dalekid, you ask a clear question and you get a whole bunch of answers you didn't want.
    Welcome to the forum.
    Part & parcel of asking a question in so public / anonymous a platform. Questioner must prepare themself to 'separate the wheat from the chaff' as posts accrue, whether an answer they're looking for ever appears or not.

    I was taught to sharpen on a bench grinder & oil stone, and to place planes on their sides when not being used. Later on I found it easier and faster to use waterstones for the final edge-forming, while habit of setting a plane down on its side persists.

    There are more wrong ways to do things than there are right ways, for asking questions as for sharpening edged tools.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Don't over think this. As you can see there are myriad ways to get a fine edge on a blade. Use which ever one you choose, one is not better than another.
    As to laying a plane on its side vs blade down on the bench, if you look closely at the pictures of the students and other shops you will see that most of the planes in a blade down aspect are resting on a thin batten so as to keep the blade off the bench. This is how they should be stored when not in use. If you are using the tool and set it down for a moment to check your work then it might not matter. I was taught to lay it on its side, or store it on its bottom on a batten.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    Laying a plane on its side on a wooden bench is nonsense. Do you put your chisels bevel down so the edge doesnt touch the bench? Spokeshave upside down?
    Come on....

    Ahhh, ..... yes.


  30. #65
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    I once made a series of 5 cabinets to test some theories on ancient proportions and finish.
    All were white pine, dovetailed together and no sandpaper was used. Soft pine requires a very sharp edge and the final surfaces were finished with a sharp smoothing plane. I could take only 4 passes across the surface before I noticed a need to tune-up the iron, which was a few passes on the finest water stone I have, #8000.
    (A well tuned wooden "coffin plane" with a thick old laminated iron did the best job. I never set a plane on it's edge, but either on a batten or on it's side. If you note the image above of "the girls" all the plane iron edges are held away from any surface by using the edge of the tool tray to support the nose)

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    And, for wooden bodied wedge tightened planes, you should loosen the wedge after use. Gordon Sylvester, whose father, Charlie, worked for Herreshoff for some 30 years, said his father wouldn't walk past such planes without checking to see if the wedge was loose.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    This thread inspired me to up my game in the sharpening stone department.

    The Razzori set showed up last night, looks nice enough, now soaking before use. Getting them was the easy part, I've always been better at dulling my tools than sharpening them but it's never too late to better yourself, right? I see stems and rabbets in my future and sharp chisels do seem to work better.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    I was taught to lay tools on their side,and have done so my whole working life. On reflection I think that was possibly to create awareness of how and where you were placing the tool, so that knocking it to the floor or somesuch was avoided.
    I would rather have doubt than be certain and wrong.
    Richard Feynman.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    This thread inspired me to up my game in the sharpening stone department.


    .
    Years ago I thought a strop was a good thing but eventually I noticed that if your edge was good and finished with a #5000 water-stone or better, a strop actually slightly dulled the edge.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Whetstone Set - recommendations

    I'll let you know how it turns out. Just put a fairly decent edge back on my kitchen knives, but they were pretty sad to start with. Tomorrow maybe the planes get some attention.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

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