Page 3 of 14 FirstFirst ... 23413 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 105 of 456

Thread: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    8,677

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Nope.

    They didn’t say quark.
    Tru dat! :-)

    To be fair, I don't think Keith's really denying your point either--though I do think his default setting is to prioritize modern science over other ways of knowing.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    36,525

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Well Glen, I tried.
    Rattling the teacups.

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    19,636

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Tru dat! :-)

    To be fair, I don't think Keith's really denying your point either--though I do think his default setting is to prioritize modern science over other ways of knowing.

    Tom
    Oh, I agree. I often seem angry or snarky, myself, and itís hard to see. And it makes me feel like an asshole.

    Iím just giving and taking, as we would do over rum.

    There are some cats here I feel safe to be me with, and I hope they know Iím not super offended as I often seem to be.

    My replies are 99% smart ass and 1% bull****.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    57,761

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    To be fair, I don't think Keith's really denying your point either--though I do think his default setting is to prioritize modern science over other ways of knowing.
    Damn right. What else works reliably?

    And really, there's a perfectly good 'physical world' on the scale we operate on. Newton's laws work quite well for sending a spacecraft to Mars. An electron may 'really' be just waveforms and probabilities, but we can predict their behavior in the aggregate very well indeed. I can write stuff on my computer, and you can read it on yours. Science is always approximate, incomplete, and subject to revision, but what else works?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    19,636

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Damn right. What else works reliably?

    And really, there's a perfectly good 'physical world' on the scale we operate on. Newton's laws work quite well for sending a spacecraft to Mars. An electron may 'really' be just waveforms and probabilities, but we can predict their behavior in the aggregate very well indeed. I can write stuff on my computer, and you can read it on yours. Science is always approximate, incomplete, and subject to revision, but what else works?

    To some people, Keith, there is more to life than arbitrary systems devised by man to order things.

    I hope you know that, and feel them.

    Thatís Human.

    Itís always been so, and to dismiss our elders for a lack of tools, to literally piss backwards on the very base of knowledge you profess to adore? Well, letís not do that.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    8,677

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Damn right. What else works reliably?

    And really, there's a perfectly good 'physical world' on the scale we operate on. Newton's laws work quite well for sending a spacecraft to Mars. An electron may 'really' be just waveforms and probabilities, but we can predict their behavior in the aggregate very well indeed. I can write stuff on my computer, and you can read it on yours. Science is always approximate, incomplete, and subject to revision, but what else works?
    Well, if by "What else works?" you mean "What else has allowed humanity to over-run the earth like a virulent plague, utterly divorced from any conception of the interdependent web that (barely) sustains them, completely disrupting the ecological balance to the point where the lack of biodiversity threatens, conceivably, all life on the planet?"...

    I guess you got me. Science wins!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    27,439

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Well Glen, I tried.
    Valiant effort, Sir...thanks!
    Your reward shall be in heaven!

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    43,866

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Nah, my reading of Genesis is conventional among most mainstream scholars. My iteration derives from what I learned growing up in the United Church of Canada (mainline, much like the UCC in the States), in which my dad made a point of keeping up on the then current biblical scholarship in the moderate-left stream. But in addition, it reflects how the conservative rabbi (Rabbi Cohen) taught us in a course at the seminary on Torah, and in how our other professors in Hebrew Scripture taught too.

    The scholarship they had us ground ourselves in was the solid, mainstream stuff respected in our time there (early 1990s), most of which had been published by outfits like the Oxford University Press or the Fortress Press in the previous 50 years or so. This was a time when the Environmental movement was gaining steam, and there was considerable biblical study especially into terms like "Have Dominion Over" and "Subdue the Earth," which were then re-worked in different theological approaches to caring for Creation.

    But the notion of humans as creatures was there from the start. As is the notion of humans created in the Image of God (Imago Dei), understood largely as characteristics and hence roles associated with consciousness (homo sapiens, eh?) which we traditionally thought distinguished us from other species.

    So was the notion of this going bad - "The Fall" - rooted in some expression of human pride, hubris, self-aggrandizement.

    The language of "having dominion over" and "subduing" creation has desperately impacted how Westerners have treated the world, and it's very problematic ... less so when one explores the original Hebrew more deeply. What's there in Hebrew is "ruling over" certainly, but in the sense that a steward is responsible for keeping an owner's business in good profitable and sustainable shape, or a tenant farmer is responsible for the fruitfulness and solid husbandry of the soil and flocks. Not "ruling over" in the sense of ruining through strip-mining, or oppressing/enslaving/inflicting cruelty.

    The linguistic choices by translators reflect the ideology and context of their times, how the Hebrew words made the most sense in their ears and minds. Translation is always, to a degree, interpretation - as anyone who wrestles with more than one modern language at a time can tell you too. "Dominion Over" sounds horrible in our ears, but the phrase derives from "domain." Canada is a "Dominion," a geographical territory claimed by the Crown - but her "dominion over us" doesn't involve slavery - and the term is archaic enough to modern ears that when we talk about Canada's governance structures we'll describe the nature of the relationship as accurately, but differently.

    This is little different. St. Francis' theology of creation is very similar, for instance.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    36,525

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Longino View Post
    Valiant effort, Sir...thanks!
    Your reward shall be in heaven!
    HA!

    The old bait and switch!
    Rattling the teacups.

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    57,761

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    To some people, Keith, there is more to life than arbitrary systems devised by man to order things.
    Sorry, here we have a real disagreement. The testable and verifiable ideas of science are the precise opposite of "arbitrary systems devised by man". They have to be carefully tested against reality, and if they don't fit, they're discarded. While we certainly get things wrong quite often, this is as far from 'arbitrary' as you can get.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  11. #81
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    32,887

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    While I don't believe for one second that a man named Noah built a wooden boat ...
    There actually is geological evidence of a great flood involving the Black Sea and many cultures have similar flood stories. You can Google it. Smithsonian magazine has information on it.

    Two of every kind of animal on earth? I doubt it. A family that survives and feels it was the hand of God? I can believe that.

  12. #82
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    57,761

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Well, if by "What else works?" you mean "What else has allowed humanity to over-run the earth like a virulent plague, utterly divorced from any conception of the interdependent web that (barely) sustains them, completely disrupting the ecological balance to the point where the lack of biodiversity threatens, conceivably, all life on the planet?"... I guess you got me. Science wins!
    Accurate knowledge of the world lets us do things. It gives power. Now, we can use that power to do good things or bad, intelligent things or stupid. And the more we know, the less likely we are to do stupid and distinctive things out of ignorance. We can still do them on purpose, of course. Our choice. I'd rather have the choice, myself, rather than have ignorance limit our choices.. And since you're writing this on a computer connected to the internet, I presume you don't entirely disagree.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  13. #83
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    8,677

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Nah, my reading of Genesis is conventional among most mainstream scholars. My iteration derives from what I learned growing up in the United Church of Canada (mainline, much like the UCC in the States), in which my dad made a point of keeping up on the then current biblical scholarship in the moderate-left stream. But in addition, it reflects how the conservative rabbi (Rabbi Cohen) taught us in a course at the seminary on Torah, and in how our other professors in Hebrew Scripture taught too.

    The scholarship they had us ground ourselves in was the solid, mainstream stuff respected in our time there (early 1990s), most of which had been published by outfits like the Oxford University Press or the Fortress Press in the previous 50 years or so. This was a time when the Environmental movement was gaining steam, and there was considerable biblical study especially into terms like "Have Dominion Over" and "Subdue the Earth," which were then re-worked in different theological approaches to caring for Creation.
    In other words, it is a subversive re-interpretation of the traditional perspective... Now, I could swear that someone just posted something about that...

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  14. #84
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    32,887

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    So was the notion of this going bad - "The Fall" - rooted in some expression of human pride, hubris, self-aggrandizement.
    Human imperfection - the real original sin, no?

  15. #85
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    8,677

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Accurate knowledge of the world lets us do things. It gives power. Now, we can use that power to do good things or bad, intelligent things or stupid. And the more we know, the less likely we are to do stupid and distinctive things out of ignorance.
    OK, Pollyanna!

    Your faith is strong. To what degree it is well founded... I don't even think we can call it an open question anymore. Knowledge does not lead to an increase in moral or ethical behavior. All of history tells us this.

    Scientific knowledge increases just enough to increase arrogance far enough for certainty, with all its attendant dangers, to set in, with disastrous consequences.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  16. #86
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    43,866

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    In other words, it is a subversive re-interpretation of the traditional perspective... Now, I could swear that someone just posted something about that...

    Tom
    I dunno about the subversive part. I tend to think, actually, that the "smash and burn and subdue" versions which the West used to justify colonization and slavery were the readings which subverted the original.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  17. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    8,677

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Sorry, here we have a real disagreement. The testable and verifiable ideas of science are the precise opposite of "arbitrary systems devised by man". They have to be carefully tested against reality, and if they don't fit, they're discarded. While we certainly get things wrong quite often, this is as far from 'arbitrary' as you can get.
    Yes. And.. maybe.

    It's not that physical reality as observed by science is arbitrary. You're entirely correct about that.

    But the fundamentalist certainty that science as a way of knowing trumps all other ways of knowing... That's arguably an arbitrary paradigm. I trust science, and what it tells us. But I'm open to the possibility that the scientific method may at some point need to be modified or rejected, and that non-scientific modes of knowledge can offer insights that science cannot.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  18. #88
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    8,677

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I dunno about the subversive part. I tend to think, actually, that the "smash and burn and subdue" versions which the West used to justify colonization and slavery were the readings which subverted the original.
    Yep, could be. Particularly if your point about the intent of the original Hebrew is correct. More of a noblesse oblige relationship demanding real stewardship, in other words.

    Subversion and counter-subversion and re-subversion--is that not the very picture of the evolution of religious thought? Of all thought? Thesis-antithesis-synthesis, ad nauseam.

    It is when formal religions (or other institutions) have the arrogance to believe that their latest synthesis is THE truth that they are at their most offensive. From what I know of your thinking, that doesn't describe you, or a fair number of other Christians. It does, however, accurately describe the fundamentalist Wisconsin Synod Lutheran sect I grew up in.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 11-24-2020 at 01:24 PM.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  19. #89
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    19,636

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Sorry, here we have a real disagreement. The testable and verifiable ideas of science are the precise opposite of "arbitrary systems devised by man". They have to be carefully tested against reality, and if they don't fit, they're discarded. While we certainly get things wrong quite often, this is as far from 'arbitrary' as you can get.
    Right. We’ve been over this. Unless a quark is a quark, then the person is wrong! Truth!

    Hubris personified, Brother.

    Get over yourself, and the rest of us.

    You think Saturn disappears without a meter? You think the periodic table MAKES elements exist?!

    Arbitrary. As arbitrary as language. The descriptions are always the “truth” as is ascertainable with the perceptive devices and knowledge base and language, but everything we have done is as arbitrary and capricious as our very existence.

    Which is why your suggesting ancients were “wrong” is silly. That was their truth, as they were able to perceive it. Same as we’ve moved on from reed rafts. Doesn’t diminish the truth of the raft, does it?

  20. #90
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    43,866

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Human imperfection - the real original sin, no?
    I don't think imperfection is a sin - an imperfect run of grain in a board is often what makes it a desirable piece of wood for the front of a dresser. Thomas Hardy wrote that the imperfection in how Tess of the D'Urberville's mouth was shaped is what made it breathtakingly beautiful.

    I think that imperfection is part of what makes us unique, gives us particular voice. I think that imagining that our imperfection isn't real is the original sin. That we are fully complete and competent and knowledgeable in and of ourselves. That's an offence against our actual gifts, and denigration of the actual gifts which others have where we have gaps.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  21. #91
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    70,481

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    SO much incomprehension. TOO much of it stubbornly ill-informed.

    "We are not a rational species. We are a rationalizing species" -- Robert Heinlein
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  22. #92
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    32,887

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I don't think imperfection is a sin - an imperfect run of grain in a board is often what makes it a desirable piece of wood for the front of a dresser. Thomas Hardy wrote that the imperfection in how Tess of the D'Urberville's mouth was shaped is what made it breathtakingly beautiful.

    I think that imperfection is part of what makes us unique, gives us particular voice. I think that imagining that our imperfection isn't real is the original sin. That we are fully complete and competent and knowledgeable in and of ourselves. That's an offence against our actual gifts, and denigration of the actual gifts which others have where we have gaps.
    I tend to agree. I also think that "sin" is tossed about too often without "empathy" and "forgiveness" attached.

    What I meant was that original sin was the imperfection of humans wanting be gods (ignorance and hubris), thereby limiting us to this imperfect world where we are called to learn the lessons that we learn with such difficulty.

  23. #93
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    64,347

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    What an interesting thread this is turning out to be!

    Man is an evolving creature, physically and intellectually, we are not set in stone. But it does seem that we may be at the point that we can stop that, by burning down the house if we are not careful.

  24. #94
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    57,761

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    OK, Pollyanna! Your faith is strong. To what degree it is well founded... I don't even think we can call it an open question anymore. Knowledge does not lead to an increase in moral or ethical behavior. All of history tells us this.

    Scientific knowledge increases just enough to increase arrogance far enough for certainty, with all its attendant dangers, to set in, with disastrous consequences.
    You missed my point - I said 'out of ignorance'. If you know more, you can still behave badly, but it won't be because you think the Jews are poisoning the wells or the local witch put a spell on you.

    But with all respect, this is objectively false. Over the past, say, 300 or 400 years, moral and ethical behavior (I think we'd more or less agree on the definition) really has increased, often to a truly surprising degree. Really. All of history tells us this, unless we ignore the evils of previous times. If you pay attention to the numbers, this is not a debatable point. War is much less frequent, even with the two world wars, and is now almost universally condemned, rather than accepted as normal behavior, or even glorified. Private violence is at unprecedentedly low levels. Democratic governments, far better than the alternatives despite all their faults, are now far, far more common that in past centuries. The idea of universal human rights is generally recognized as the ideal, if far from perfectly applied. Women have made huge progress toward equality, although there's a long way to go. Slavery is illegal everywhere, and only persists in a few isolated backwaters. We're a very, very long way from utopia, but compared to any other time in all of recorded history, human beings really are being less horrible and more virtuous.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  25. #95
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Tulsa, Okla.
    Posts
    27,309

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    In the end there is death, case closed.
    "para todo mal, mezcal, y para todo bien tambiťn" (for everything bad, mezcal, and for everything good, as well.)

  26. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    43,866

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    I think, CW. Herself once remarked to me that "sin" is way too often immediately pigeonholed into things salacious or financial or etc. It's better understood maybe with Jesus' parable that he (God) is the vine, and we are the branches. The branches don't tend do so well cut off and piled into a heap.

    The nature of Sin isn't that it rebelliously breaks a rule, or flouts some regulation; something is sinful when it messes with one's connection to the vine. When it impedes the flow of life into you, and through you into your community. That's the metric.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  27. #97
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cant„o - Brazil
    Posts
    13,465

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    If we are skeptical of the tales of ancient goatherds in the Levant, why should we not be just as skeptical of the tales of ancient swineherds in the Far East? Have the people that follow that philosophy done any better in living a good life and not fouling the nest?


    So many people reject the religion they were raised with only to adopt a more exotic one...

  28. #98
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cant„o - Brazil
    Posts
    13,465

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby of Tulsa View Post
    In the end there is death, case closed.
    And that's OK.

  29. #99
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    52,084

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    There actually is geological evidence of a great flood involving the Black Sea and many cultures have similar flood stories. You can Google it. Smithsonian magazine has information on it.

    Two of every kind of animal on earth? I doubt it. A family that survives and feels it was the hand of God? I can believe that.
    Especially as it was seven of the clean (Kosher to eat) ones and two of all the others.
    The ancestors of the Jews probably borrowed the Gilgamesh legend when they were captives in Babylon. A scholar has worked out the size of the Ark and had a replica built based on Babylonian texts.
    Babylonian Captivity, also called Babylonian Exile, the forced detention of Jews in Babylonia following the latterís conquest of the kingdom of Judah in 598/7 and 587/6 bce. The captivity formally ended in 538 bce, when the Persian conqueror of Babylonia, Cyrus the Great, gave the Jews permission to return to Palestine.
    https://www.britannica.com/event/Babylonian-Captivity
    Bible scholars believe that the Jews learned to write in Babylon, so the original text of the Testament was written down from the mishmash of the oral tradition during their exile.
    1. Flood myth section

      Lines 1-203, Tablet XI [8] (note: with supplemental sub-titles and line numbers added for clarity)
      Ea leaks the secret plan
      1. Utnapishtim tells Gilgamesh a secret story that begins in the old city of Shuruppak on the banks of the Euphrates River.
      2. The "great gods" Anu, Enlil, Ninurta, Ennugi, and Ea were sworn to secrecy about their plan to cause the flood.
      3. But the god Ea (Sumerian god Enki) repeated the plan to Utnapishtim through a reed wall in a reed house.
      4. Ea commanded Utnapishtim to demolish his house and build a boat, regardless of the cost, to keep living beings alive.
      5. The boat must have equal dimensions with corresponding width and length and be covered over like Apsu boats.
      6. Utnapishtim promised to do what Ea commanded.
      7. He asked Ea what he should say to the city elders and the population.
      8. Ea tells him to say that Enlil has rejected him and he can no longer reside in the city or set foot in Enlil's territory.
      9. He should also say that he will go down to the Apsu "to live with my lord Ea".
      10. Note: 'Apsu' can refer to a freshwater marsh near the temple of Ea/Enki at the city of Eridu.[9]

      Building and launching the boat
    2. Carpenters, reed workers, and other people assembled one morning.
    3. [missing lines]
    4. Five days later, Utnapishtim laid out the exterior walls of the boat of 120 cubits.
    5. The sides of the superstructure had equal lengths of 120 cubits. He also made a drawing of the interior structure.
    6. The boat had six decks [?] divided into seven and nine compartments.
    7. Water plugs were driven into the middle part.
    8. Punting poles and other necessary things were laid in.
    9. Three times 3,600 units of raw bitumen were melted in a kiln and three times 3,600 units of oil were used in addition to two times 3,600 units of oil that were stored in the boat.
    10. Oxen and sheep were slaughtered and ale, beer, oil, and wine were distributed to the workmen, like at a new year's festival.
    11. When the boat was finished, the launch was very difficult. A runway of poles was used to slide the boat into the water.
    12. Two-thirds of the boat was in the water.
    13. Utnapishtim loaded his silver and gold into the boat.
    14. He loaded "all the living beings that I had."
    15. His relatives and craftsmen, and "all the beasts and animals of the field" boarded the boat.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth
    The small(ish) replica built with reeds and bitumen
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  30. #100
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    57,761

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby of Tulsa View Post
    In the end there is death, case closed.
    One thing we know for sure, nobody gets out of here alive. People don't like it much, which explains a lot.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 11-24-2020 at 03:13 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  31. #101
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    43,866

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Conservation of matter, conservation of energy. I doubt that it's over when it's over.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  32. #102
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    52,084

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    SO much incomprehension. TOO much of it stubbornly ill-informed.

    "We are not a rational species. We are a rationalizing species" -- Robert Heinlein
    "The Storytelling Ape" - Terry Pratchett.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  33. #103
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    57,761

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Conservation of matter, conservation of energy. I doubt that it's over when it's over.
    Yeah, but patterns, i.e. information, isn't conserved. We are the patterns. The matter and energy remain, but arranged quite differently.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  34. #104
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    43,866

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Yeah, but patterns, i.e. information, isn't conserved. We are the patterns. The matter and energy remain, but arranged quite differently.
    Depends how far down one goes, I should think. The arrangement of matter into specific molecules - of carbon, iron, hydrogen etc - will largely be conserved, which is a form of patterning of electrons and etc. held in place by bonds which remain intact.

    It's speculative but still plausible that the energy invested in a particular pattern is also conserved, but that we know neither how to observe nor measure it.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  35. #105
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    the hills
    Posts
    59,549

    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Conservation of matter, conservation of energy. I doubt that it's over when it's over.
    “it”? Kinda a funny how we can conceive of death and make up a work around to deny it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •