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Thread: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

  1. #1
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    Default "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    First sentence of The Holy Bible!
    Anybody else need a shot of Mescal to wash that lie down?
    Please discuss rationally.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    So a century and a half after Darwin wrote the Origin of Species and the following years of Science (yes I believe the world is not flat) and you would like
    a discussion about what exactly?

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Note that it doesn't say how.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Note that it doesn't say how.
    In 6 days? must of been more than mescal I guess...

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    I have a rule that I try to live by. I don't read cookbooks to learn about geology. I don't read quantum mechanics textbooks to learn about reproduction of birds. And I don't read the Bible looking for science.

    That doesn't mean I can't learn a great deal from cookbooks, or quantum mechanics textbooks, or the Bible. I just read them each for what truth they have to offer.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I have a rule that I try to live by. I don't read cookbooks to learn about geology. I don't read quantum mechanics textbooks to learn about reproduction of birds. And I don't read the Bible looking for science.

    That doesn't mean I can't learn a great deal from cookbooks, or quantum mechanics textbooks, or the Bible. I just read them each for what truth they have to offer.
    Not bad at all, but after 12 years of catholic school ,personally, I'll pass on that last book.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    I think the origins of that sentence are considerably older than the book Glen, and I'm sure I'm not the first to extrapolate it as the bible's 'big bang'.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    first two sentences of the tao, a much older and perhaps wiser spiritual text than genesis. . .

    Tao, the subtle reality of the universe cannot be described in words.
    That which can be described in words is merely a conception of the mind.
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 11-24-2020 at 04:17 AM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Thank you Paul, tonights reading.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    The key lesson of that chapter of the Bible is: ignorance is strength, knowledge is evil, learning will be punished.

    Note that the "knowledge" we are not allowed to have is moral knowledge. Don't worry your pretty little head about what's good and what's evil, just do what the Lord orders without questioning it.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    The bible must be a powerful book - it is able to upset people who don't believe in it.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    ^ it's not that book per se. It's the people who attempt to force their interpretation of it on others which generates the response.



    " Tao, the subtle reality of the universe cannot be described in words.
    That which can be described in words is merely a conception of the mind. "


    Wait!

    What?

    Where's the dawg.. er dog.. er god part!?

    T'Hell (oops 0-: ) with that mamby pamby mumble jumble - we need Certainty!

    or not. Perhaps a recognition that not all needs to be tied down is a Good Thing©.

    'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaoR5m4L80'

    meanwhile, in a universe where change is the only constant, 'rules of the tribe' require flexibility.
    Last edited by Durnik; 11-24-2020 at 04:22 AM.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    ^ it's not that book per se. It's the people who attempt to force their interpretation of it on others which generates the response.



    " Tao, the subtle reality of the universe cannot be described in words.
    That which can be described in words is merely a conception of the mind. "


    Wait!

    What?

    Where's the dawg.. er dog.. er god part!?

    T'Hell (oops 0-: ) with that mamby pamby mumble jumble - we need Certainty!

    or not. Perhaps a recognition that not all needs to be tied down is a Good Thing©.

    'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaoR5m4L80'

    meanwhile, in a universe where change is the only constant, 'rules of the tribe' require flexibility.
    Sounds rather like science, always questions…and doesn't that pi55 off the franchisees, and their clientele eh?

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    How is Science going at creating life from a collection of the essential elements? .....like an amoeba? or a paramecium? ........or maybe some grass? ....or a tree?
    Or how about an animal that does wee? .......
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    ^@Jeff..

    yet even *science tries to tie things down. Maybe more like spirituality, recognizing experiences are valid for themselves.. and life is not about 'making profit' (toys/destruction/whatever) for the furtherance of gratification of egos.

    It seems to me the single biggest problem w/ the word 'spirituality' is the gawd followers all claim ownership - while doing everything in their power to stop the experience.

    *science - as we know it, and perhaps that's because science - in a religious world - is doomed to be warped by the trappings of religion.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Thats because we are human Durnik………
    Trapped within the capacities of our minds, which vary……………..

    and even I as a complete unbeliever have had an experience…… odd, but I do think it was secular and a product of my own brain.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Thats because we are human Durnik………
    Trapped within the capacities of our minds, which vary……………..

    and even I as a complete unbeliever have had an experience…… odd, but I do think it was secular and a product of my own brain.
    I am rereading the Science of Disk world books. The first one deals in part with out of body experience, alien abductions and so on. The current best bet is that they are the brain trying to rationalise the experience of sleep paralysis
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    How is Science going at creating life from a collection of the essential elements? .....like an amoeba? or a paramecium? ........or maybe some grass? ....or a tree?
    Or how about an animal that does wee? .......
    About as good as it is at creating a rocky planet with oceans out of a collection of cosmic gas and dust. Which proves...

  19. #19
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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Thats because we are human Durnik………
    Trapped within the capacities of our minds, which vary……………..

    and even I as a complete unbeliever have had an experience…… odd, but I do think it was secular and a product of my own brain.
    I am rereading the Science of Disk world books. The first one deals in part with out of body experience, alien abductions and so on. The current best bet is that they are the brain trying to rationalise the experience of sleep paralysis
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Longino View Post
    First sentence of The Holy Bible!
    Anybody else need a shot of Mescal to wash that lie down?
    Please discuss rationally.
    There is a very thought-provoking book https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/B...-srp1-_-title1


    Synopsis: 'What a fine long pedigree you have given the human race.' - Charles Darwin to Charles Lyell, 1863. How is the Royal Family descended from fish? How distantly are we related to dinosaurs? How much of your DNA came from Neanderthals? How are the builders of Stonehenge connected to your great-grandpa? According to science, life first appeared on Earth about 3,500 million years ago. Every living thing is descended from that first spark, including all of us. But if we trace a direct line down from those original life forms to ourselves, what do we find? What is the full story of our family tree over the past 3,500 million years, and how are we able to trace ourselves so far back?From single-celled organisms to sea-dwelling vertebrates; amphibians to reptiles; tiny mammals to primitive man; the first Homo sapiens to the cave painters of Ice Age Europe and the first farmers down to the Norman Conquest, this book charts not only the extraordinary story of our ancient ancestors but also our 40,000-year-long quest to discover our roots, from ancient origin myths of world-shaping mammoths and great floods down to the scientific discovery of our descent from the Genetic Adam and the Mitochondrial Eve. This is the amazing story of our ancient ancestors, as told by one of Britain's leading genealogists.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    first two sentences of the tao, a much older and perhaps wiser spiritual text than genesis. . .

    Tao, the subtle reality of the universe cannot be described in words.
    That which can be described in words is merely a conception of the mind.

    This is The Way.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Where was God before he created everything???

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Who created God?

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Catholicism was invented, from whole cloth, at a meeting. It was subsequently split into a bunch of sects, but “Christianity” had its official start date recorded in history.

    We know when it started, and it isn’t very old. It is based on the cultural and spiritual histories of some peoples, and as such many of the stories are simply retellings.

    It was also compiled in different language than the original texts. With a bunch of stuff left out...

    And, the one most people use as the reference point was re-written to suit ONE dude. Who talked weird.

    Think about it; most folks don’t even catch the allegory in Shakespeare!

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Who created God?
    Man. The many discussions/debates I've had over my life with believers, I've found they eventually tell me everything has to have a beginning. So I ask them when God began, and they tell me he was always. Which says some things don't have to have a beginning.

    I was always content with not knowing in/when/how all the life on this planet began. I often made the analogy that if we were stuck on some island, it wouldn't matter much if it was the result of a plane crash or a boat sinking.

    Science and religion have often disagreed. Why would God let his believers treat Galileo as they did, and let them believe what was wrong? That, among many other things, speaks as to there not being a God, or the God they worship simply doesn't really care about us.
    Hope the door hits him on the way out.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    2000 years ago a lot of stuff we see on Penn & Teller's show would seem like miracles. Today we know they are tricks and illusions.

    We also live in a world full of marvelous things science has given us. Yet, when science tells us something that we find 'inconvenient' we choose faith over fact.

    It seems people who like to advise me they are Christians, are usually not very nice people. It's not that they don't sin, but that God will forgive them of those sins. Kind of a blank check.
    Hope the door hits him on the way out.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    As a Christian, one thing I don't do is ridicule other peoples religion just to start a fight.
    Ratus ratus bilgeous snipeous!

    You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    I study and explore religions and cultures as a hobby, as I studied anthro in college.

    I endeavor to always be sensitive to others beliefs when discussing them, but also to discuss things candidly.

    I hope I am always respectful of people’s inner lives.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    The key lesson of that chapter of the Bible is: ignorance is strength, knowledge is evil, learning will be punished.

    Note that the "knowledge" we are not allowed to have is moral knowledge. Don't worry your pretty little head about what's good and what's evil, just do what the Lord orders without questioning it.
    No George. The key lesson of that chapter of the Bible is: Chaos preceded the formation of the world we experience - the world of matter, land separated from water, sky separated from earth. Living things and dead ones, rather than merely dead stuff. Moreover, we experience that version of "Order" we live within as "very good" compared with the preceding Chaos - so we'd do well to appreciate it, and tend it. The Genesis story conceives of humans as gardeners, stewards of the place.

    Moreover, knowledge about one's charges isn't a bad thing at all for a gardener. And in general, for a species which across all cultures has considered itself unique in that it is self-aware, it's a good thing to learn stuff. Keeps us happy, and occupied. The Genesis story calls that characteristic of ours "very good" too.

    But even self-aware species are only species, after all. No matter how many grand things we learn, or how innovative our thinking, we still actually function within the bounds of reality - within the bounds of how the universe is actually Ordered. How biology works, how physics work, how chemistry works, etc. And we can't simply make up different rules of physics, biology or chemistry to suit ourselves (like throwing the carbon cycle way out of whack, for instance. Or killing off swatches of species within an ecosystem); a species within an ecosystem doesn't have that power. If we try to do that, chaos will start to re-assert itself in one way or another, de-creating stuff.

    I'd think, George, that your experience as an environmental advocate rather bears that last bit out.

    The point of the various stories contained in the Bible is rarely if ever (in fact, I can't think of a single place) to give scientific factual knowledge, but instead to suggest that we humans aren't actually Gods in charge of the place. And we all tend to get on better within the world when we acknowledge that.
    Last edited by TomF; 11-24-2020 at 09:15 AM.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    I suppose we should be thankful that Christians only think that their religion should be above scrutiny, which they call "ridicule" because they don't like the result.

    Muslims think you should be beheaded for even drawing a stick figure and labelling it "Muhammed".

    Then again, Christians were not so nice back when they actually ran things.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    things go far better if they cooperate with the way the universe is "ordered,"
    Sure, but in reality, the Bible tells people to cooperate with the way authorities say the universe is ordered.

    I see the message coming through very strong: the "Lord" (convenient double-entendre) is the sole authority, and he ordered people to not figure out good and evil for themselves but just obey him blindly. They disobeyed, and got the ultimate collective punishment, applying to all their descendants forever.

    Later we get 10 commandments, most of which are concerned with establishing the "Lord's" total authority, and of parents as his proxies - a bit of Confucianism, anyone?

    Yes, we humans aren't godlike creatures in charge of the place - on the contrary, we seem to be no better at it than pond scum. But what we need is the humility to see ourselves as equal with the rest of the nature, and not as having the right to submit it all to our will as long as we ourselves submit to the "Lord" - which is what the Old Testament teaches.

    I like the New Testament a lot better, except for Paul.

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Who's saying that Christianity should be above scrutiny? I've been "scrutinizing" and rejecting/affirming various Christians' thoughts about Christianity as long as I've been conscious. And am entirely ordinary and orthodox in that practice.

    I think you need to meet a better crowd, George. I'm entirely pissed off with the "Christianity" you describe too.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    I still remember listening to the title of this thread being broadcast from Apollo 8 as they orbited the moon, Christmas Eve, 1968.
    Ratus ratus bilgeous snipeous!

    You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Any resemblance between Tom's religion and that of those who wrote Genesis is, if not coincidental, tenuous at best. That's as it should be. Tom, aside from being a very bright guy, benefits from millenia of people trying hard to figure things out, and sometimes succeeding. We know a LOT more than they did then. That's one major trouble with ancient sacred texts, and taking them too literally. (I might say 'seriously' as well, but I'm not quite ready for that argument this morning.)

    And Tom, I'm quite impressed how you managed to put in the second law of thermodynamics, a fundamental truth about the universe that the folks 4000 years ago understood very, very dimly. if at all
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    I think people back when were smarter than we give credit.

    Chi, for example. Or Qi. Probably sounded crazy way back when. It’s hard science, now...

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