Talk to me about row-cruising

[Alan H]

I've never rowed more than about 2 miles, but the idea of cruising protected water under oars strongly appeals. I'm about a year away from starting a build, and I'm torn between a stitch 'n glue,15-16 foot rowboat....likeFloMo's two sheet designs...and a plywood dinghy cruiser.

Tell us about your experiences cruising in a dedicated row-only boat? What's good? What's bad? What are the challenges?

[john welsford]

I've done a lot of cruising under oars, a week at at time, 125 miles or so, I try for 20 miles a day, tide assisted if at all possible, and have very strong views on oars, much prefer a fixed seat boat, have worked on the nutritional issues, the oar geometry, the relationship between the footrests, seat height and the width between the rowlocks and so on.
There are pages of information, so,
Ask me a question.

John Welsford

[Ian McColgin]

After building Leeward (18' Chamberlain gunning dory) I did a bit of beach camping along the Oregon coast. Weekend hops trailering to nice loop sites rarely more than ten miles a day. Loved sightseeing. Usually hauled Leeward up and camped ashore, especially if an ocean coast, but sometimes in the Columbia I'd sleep aboard if moored to a log raft in a slough. I'd made for climbing a variation on the WWII jungle hammock that worked slung from trees or cover held up by oars and foam pad over planks spanning the thwarts.

But back East I lived on a boat and Leeward was more a tender except for one epic row in companion with another dory Hyannis to Madaket (Nantucket) to Cape Pogue (Chappaquiddick Island) and back.

Once I made Leeward's sailing rig I found that I much preferred to let God provide the power.

But to reinforce John's point - look up in WoodenBoat the article on the doryman's stroke. Fixed seat and open top oarlocks. And be happy with a walking pace. Leeward even heavily laden was an easy row at three knots for seven or eight hours, not counting a break for lunch.

[The Jeff]

But back East I lived on a boat and Leeward was more a tender except for one epic row in companion with another dory Hyannis to Madaket (Nantucket) to Cape Pogue (Chappaquiddick Island) and back.

Now that sounds like an adventure! Have you written about the trip anywhere?

[cstevens]

I have nothing to add to John and Ian’s responses. I’ve done plenty of distance rowing but no row cruising. I’d like to someday though. I’d likely choose a fixed seat boat as well but for those who prefer a sliding seat I think the Angus Rowcruiser is interesting:

https://angusrowboats.com/pages/rowcruiser

[amish rob]

ABOUT?

Really, I prefer canoes or kayaks. But, several years ago I hurt my back and I haven’t been able to paddle the same, since. I can’t roll a kayak reliably anymore, for example, and prying in a canoe makes me white out, so I don’t trust myself for long periods or on trips in either.

Fixed seat (I haven’t had the opportunity to row sliding seat since being hurt, but I suspect the changing hip angle may make that painful for me...) rowing doesn’t seem to bother me at all.

Of course, everybody knows that a bad back is caused by a weak front, right? Barring crushing or bending injuries, like mine, most bad backs are simply weakened fronts.

Anywho. We don’t have great, or even good, sailing anywhere near here. Sailing is something I took up after I got hurt, because it allowed me to travel across the lakes, again.

Rowing came later than the sailing, and I haven’t been doing it for long, but it suits me well. I’ve raced my entire life, and at this point I am generally in no particular hurry to get anywhere. The rhythmic motions tend to quiet my brain, too, like when I’m swimming; which, I like to row with single tholes so I have to concentrate on rowing, which makes my dumb brain shut up.

Rowboats are simple like canoes, which may be their best quality. Boat, sticks, floaty bit, and go!

The few nights I have spent on a rowboat were likely less than romantic to most folk. Waking up under that little tent, though, and sitting up and rowing into the first calm light, with just the clonky thonk chunk of wood on wood, and the drippy slurp of the thin oar blades as they make and leave a series of dimples that lead into the past...

[Clarkey]

ABOUT?

Really, I prefer canoes or kayaks. But, several years ago I hurt my back and I haven’t been able to paddle the same, since. I can’t roll a kayak reliably anymore, for example, and prying in a canoe makes me white out, so I don’t trust myself for long periods or on trips in either.

Fixed seat (I haven’t had the opportunity to row sliding seat since being hurt, but I suspect the changing hip angle may make that painful for me...) rowing doesn’t seem to bother me at all.

Of course, everybody knows that a bad back is caused by a weak front, right? Barring crushing or bending injuries, like mine, most bad backs are simply weakened fronts.

Anywho. We don’t have great, or even good, sailing anywhere near here. Sailing is something I took up after I got hurt, because it allowed me to travel across the lakes, again.

Rowing came later than the sailing, and I haven’t been doing it for long, but it suits me well. I’ve raced my entire life, and at this point I am generally in no particular hurry to get anywhere. The rhythmic motions tend to quiet my brain, too, like when I’m swimming; which, I like to row with single tholes so I have to concentrate on rowing, which makes my dumb brain shut up.

Rowboats are simple like canoes, which may be their best quality. Boat, sticks, floaty bit, and go!

The few nights I have spent on a rowboat were likely less than romantic to most folk. Waking up under that little tent, though, and sitting up and rowing into the first calm light, with just the clonky thonk chunk of wood on wood, and the drippy slurp of the thin oar blades as they make and leave a series of dimples that lead into the past...

I know I am a bit of a stuck record on this but have you ever tried Venetian, stand-up, rowing? I found it a real breath of fresh air after a lot of fixed seat rowing - such a natural posture (and no chafing!). I could row literally all day with no issues or regrets the morning after part from those related to the grappa.

[amish rob]

I know I am a bit of a stuck record on this but have you ever tried Venetian, stand-up, rowing? I found it a real breath of fresh air after a lot of fixed seat rowing - such a natural posture (and no chafing!). I could row literally all day with no issues or regrets the morning after part from those related to the grappa.

I’ve never had a boat large enough that I could stand up and row, I don’t think. I’ve got tiny boats with low sides and relatively narrow bottoms.

I’d love a boat large enough to stand and row. I’ve done quite a bit of kneeling and rowing facing forward, in much the same manner, I’d guess, and it’s awesome.

The duck punt actually rows pretty well that way.

[Clarkey]

I’ve never had a boat large enough that I could stand up and row, I don’t think. I’ve got tiny boats with low sides and relatively narrow bottoms.

I’d love a boat large enough to stand and row. I’ve done quite a bit of kneeling and rowing facing forward, in much the same manner, I’d guess, and it’s awesome.

The duck punt actually rows pretty well that way.

Interestingly the smallest common Venetian boat is a duck punt - the s'ciopon. It is almost exactly the same size as the Mersea punt and carries the mother of all punt guns.



The very smallest seems to be the 'Saltafossi' at about 10'. Neither of them are what you would call seaboats though!

[Ian McColgin]

The Angus is good for sheltered waters. If you're out in a sea or landing through surf, you must have open top rowlocks and be adept at one-handed repositioning, shipping, and unshipping. It helps that the wrist action in proper feathering allows you to use the oar outside the lock like a thole pin, or you could use thole pins if you want to really knock folks' sox off. I like rowlocks better because I don't need to shift the oars for reverse.

It's well to have a rowlock on the transom or for a double ender starboard aft (if you're right handed) so you can scull up those narrow spaces that are too tight to get the oars out and then you can also stand to look over the marsh grasses to see where you are.

The other problem with outriggers is that it's a pain to land at a dock or other boat.

G'luck

[amish rob]

Ugh. I hate replying to these type threads.

I have a 14’ flattie skiff I’ve camped in a few times in some short trips. I ain’t use it all that much, so if you’d like to head over into the valley and pick her up for a trip, you’re welcome.

She’s set up with single tholes, and I have a few types of oars to use with her.

Picking a boat is super personal no matter the type, so I’ll just leave it at the row camping I’ve done has been as fun as the canoe camping. Same type of vibe, for me.

[Alan H]

Ugh. I hate replying to these type threads.

I have a 14’ flattie skiff I’ve camped in a few times in some short trips. I ain’t use it all that much, so if you’d like to head over into the valley and pick her up for a trip, you’re welcome.

She’s set up with single tholes, and I have a few types of oars to use with her.

Picking a boat is super personal no matter the type, so I’ll just leave it at the row camping I’ve done has been as fun as the canoe camping. Same type of vibe, for me.

Amish Rob, come next spring I just might take you up on that. That's a very generous offer, thank you!

[amish rob]

Amish Rob, come next spring I just might take you up on that. That's a very generous offer, thank you!

Of course! I also have the duck punt, which rows fairly well with short oars, but which I’m thinking of adding outriggers to...

And, I have a fair number of plans for rowing boats, if you’d like to peruse and perhaps use one of them that’s unused.

For the record, I have been contemplating exactly this boat for a while, now. Really. I’m interested to see where your search leads you.

[Ben Fuller]

The short removable slide I made for my dory doesn't require a change in oars or locks; doesn't change your speed but it improves your endurance and is especially useful pulling into a head wind. Low windage is important for pleasant rowing.

[Alan H]

OK....clearly I need to provide more information.

where will it get used?

--Sacramento River Delta, where it can get windy, but there are byways to tuck into sort of all over the place. There are also bridges, a very few of which are low enough to prevent any sailing craft from getting in without striking the mast.
--Day-rows in the protected Alameda Estuary, where there's essentially no swell and the wind is usually light, but there can be very large powerboat wakes. ... --Redwood Creek, which is the closest bit of water to my house. There's a launch ramp. It can blow pretty fresh during the summer and parts of the slough are straight to windward. It can build up a pretty good 1-foot chop. Most of the deeper water is more-or-less across the wind.
--I want to do the Puget Sound water trail, either by oar or in a cruising dinghy with oars. I have no time constrains on this, but I would guess that two weeks would be about right. I'm a little bit tempted to do the R2AK's "Prelude"..the 70/48, Tacoma to Port Townsend row, so I suppose that something that will be easy to maintain at speed would be good.

Pace - 3 mph is fine with me. Up at 7:30, hit the water by 9:30, then 2 hours on, half- hour off....two hours on, half- hour off until 4:30 seems good. That's 6 hours of rowing, so I can figure on covering something like 16-20 miles. I have no reason at this point to feel the need for more. When I was younger and was backpacking, I wanted to ~cover miles~. Now I just want to enjoy my time and stop to watch anything interesting that I see. Of course, if I do the 70/48 I'll be rowing for more than that, in a day.

Seat Type: all my rowing experience has been either in a 12 foot aluminum tank that was made for an outboard, with clunky Caviness Oars from West Marine, or in my CLC Skerry which I bought with a nice pair of wood oars. The Skerry was a dream to row after the aluminum thing. So this means that I've never rowed a sliding seat boat. I do, however, spend kind of a lot of time on a Concept II rower at the gym, as I've found that nothing is better for loosening up my lower back and glutes, than 5-8 minutes on the rowing machine.

QUESTION...why do you prefer a fixed seat? Or why do you prefer a sliding seat?

Boat Type: I like building "things" but this will be my first complete boat. I'm pretty sure that I'm interested in a hull that I can get out of 2 pieces of 8-foot plywood, which limits me to about 15.5 feet in length. It'll be stitch 'n glue for sure. The boat can be a little bit heavy-ish as I'll transport it on a trailer, not car-top it. I no longer have a truck, so don't have a way to get racks on my vehicle that are far-enough apart to support a long hull. As of right now, the boats I'm considering are Flo-Mo's two seat designs: the Faering, Big Guide, and ROMAX. I'm going to assume that most people on the forum are familiar with Flo-Mo's boats. I'm also interest in the Butler Projects Pacific Troller Dory. Many of you probably know this boat but here's a picture, just in case.

DSCN0159.JPG

a friend is putting Angus's sliding seat conversion into a 16 foot touring canoe, in order to do the 70/48...so I suppose that's an option. I'm not utterly sold on limiting myself to 15-16 feet, it just seems a handy pace to start. I love the CLC Expedition Wherry but the kit is much, much more $$ than I'm willing to spend. Also, I think the Expedition Wherry is not conducive to sleeping aboard.

Sleeping, Cooking, etc. The truth is that I don't know enough to know if I want to sleep and cook on board. I'm used to camping/backpacking so going light and simple doesn't bother me at all. I guess it would be very handy to be able to sleep aboard. QUESTION: Why do you, or don't you sleep/cook aboard your row-cruiser? BTW, when I think of "sleep aboard". I think of tent-like structures. I'm pretty sure I'd be crazy claustrophobic inside the Angus Row-Cruiser. I'm a very "kinetic" sleeper...I roll over a LOT and thrash about something terrible.

About me:

--63 years old, will be 64 when I start this build
--Many years of weight training, but only moderate cardio. I'm good for about 3-4 hours of truly hard work and then I "hit the wall" and I'm ~Done~. It was nice to be 30 years old and hike all day! However, I'm pretty darned strong for my age. I don't know if I can row at 30% capacity for 8-10 hours at a time. Never tried it!
--300 pounds
--long arms, long torso...relatively short tree trunks for legs.
-- I have some compression issues in my lower spine, and between C7 and T1, that when aggravated result in pain in my upper back and numbness in one finger in my right hand. However, as noted above, spending time on the Concept rower is almost the single best thing I can do for the lower back compression

[rgthom]

-- I have some compression issues in my lower spine, and between C7 and T1, that when aggravated result in pain in my upper back and numbness in one finger in my right hand. However, as noted above, spending time on the Concept rower is almost the single best thing I can do for the lower back compression

I have similar problems, back issues that made lifting heavy objects and sitting for any length of time painful. I could no longer do the sea kayaking I liked, the fixed sitting position in a kayak just was not tolerable. A rowing machine was part of my therapy, that led to taking up slide seat rowing about 15 years ago and still going strong. John Welsford has lots of upper body strength like you, but I don't think he has the back issues so he prefers fixed seat. My legs are good due to cycling, that also helps for slide seat. If you are getting relief from the erg then slide seat is probably going to be what you want in the boat. My seat has a slide lock, so it works both fixed and slide. You are more than welcome to take it for a trial on Suisun Slough for a day to see what works. Really, just let me know when to drop it off.

-Rick

[Gib Etheridge]

Before you go any further go to the gym and see if your back and the rest of your joints can take it.

[Alan H]

Before you go any further go to the gym and see if your back and the rest of your joints can take it.

Yes, I should try the rowing machine for, like....30-40 minutes at about half my usual pace instead of the 6-8 minutes that I usually do. Since a "session" in the gym right now is limited to 50 minutes, that's the longest I can row. I'm a little tight from lifting last week, maybe tomorrows session would be a good time to try this.

[cstevens]

Yes, I should try the rowing machine for, like....30-40 minutes at about half my usual pace instead of the 6-8 minutes that I usually do.

Hm. I think you can be more ambitious than that. 6-8 minutes is a warmup. 30-40 minutes is a sprint workout. 90-120 minutes is just starting to get into a distance rowing workout.

[Alan H]

Hm. I think you can be more ambitious than that. 6-8 minutes is a warmup. 30-40 minutes is a sprint workout. 90-120 minutes is just starting to get into a distance rowing workout.

Up until now, the rowing machine has been a way to get loose and warm up before and cool down, after lifting sessions. Honestly, I can't imagine spending an hour and a half on a rowing machine. I'd die of boredom!

[cstevens]

Up until now, the rowing machine has been a way to get loose and warm up before and cool down, after lifting sessions. Honestly, I can't imagine spending an hour and a half on a rowing machine. I'd die of boredom!

Well, yes. It's definitely more enjoyable in a boat

[cstevens]

Before you go any further go to the gym and see if your back and the rest of your joints can take it.

This is worth doing. Spending 45 minutes on an erg is very different than spending several hours on one, or in a boat. Try spending at least a couple of hours rowing at a moderate pace. 1 km is just about .5 nm so a split time of 3:00 is pretty close to 5 knots and 3:30 is a bit more than 4 knots (in theory at least). Try doing that for a couple of hours and see how it feels.

[amish rob]

Great, thanks! Now I have to suss out some extra tall oarlock deals to plug into the thole rails of the punt.

And, thanks for the info! Those are neat boats I had no idea about.

[Clarkey]

Great, thanks! Now I have to suss out some extra tall oarlock deals to plug into the thole rails of the punt.

And, thanks for the info! Those are neat boats I had no idea about.

Rowing with crossed oars like in the first photo is insanely tricky (I never got remotely close to success despite several attempts with an excellent teacher) and it might be difficult to get enough spread between the rowlocks in a duck punt. There is another way though, from the other side of the Adriatic - the Batana from Rovinj (which is a sea boat):

[amish rob]

Rowing with crossed oars like in the first photo is insanely tricky (I never got remotely close to success despite several attempts with an excellent teacher) and it might be difficult to get enough spread between the rowlocks in a duck punt. There is another way though, from the other side of the Adriatic - the Batana from Rovinj (which is a sea boat):

Oh, I know! I actually row the punt a lot, as it’s ergonomics suit me pretty well, if I sit on the floorboards just abaft the thwart.

With long enough oars to be worth a damn, it’s definitely cross handed, but it becomes second nature; they tell me.

I have actually rowed the punt facing forward quite a bit.

I was actually joking about the extensions. But, I am right there with you. That s’ciopon you posted is just about exactly the thing I’ve been dreaming up for around here.

Somewhat I can pole and row and sleep in, if need be. Somewhat to poke around all the shallow water we got, and maybe find some of the delicious fishes therein.

That picture with the forward rowing station aft like that... of course, you seem to post LOTS of pictures of boats I like.

[Clarkey]

That picture with the forward rowing station aft like that... of course, you seem to post LOTS of pictures of boats I like.

Yes, I love that look too.

[amish rob]

Yes, I love that look too.

Oh, yes! Yes, yes, yes! Are these flat bottomed “three board” boats, or is the shape more sophisticated? They look like nothing more than really lean skiffs.

[Clarkey]

Oh, yes! Yes, yes, yes! Are these flat bottomed “three board” boats, or is the shape more sophisticated? They look like nothing more than really lean skiffs.

Yes that one is - a 'Mascareta', though some varieties have curved sides (all flat-bottomed though). The best places to have a drool are:

http://www.veniceboats.com/eng-fleet.htm

and:

http://www.velaalterzo.com/

The second link is focused on sailing which is, surprisingly, very much a minority interest on the lagoon. Rowing is king.

Another area of inspiration might be further east, I believe that 'Sampan' means 'three planks'?

[WI-Tom]

Yes that one is - a 'Mascareta', though some varieties have curved sides (all flat-bottomed though). The best places to have a drool are:

http://www.veniceboats.com/eng-fleet.htm

and:

http://www.velaalterzo.com/

The second link is focused on sailing which is, surprisingly, very much a minority interest on the lagoon. Rowing is king.

Another area of inspiration might be further east, I believe that 'Sampan' means 'three planks'?

Clarkey,

thanks so much for your Venice-oriented posts here! A really nice change of pace. It wasn't until my wife convinced me to watch a Rick Steves episode on Venice that I had ANY idea just what the lagoon is like, or how big it is, or how many islands and cities it holds. So interesting to see their very different approach to propulsion.

Tom

[Alan H]

I have plans...a buddy gave them to me, for a slightly shortened version of the Caravelle / Caragogne. The French boat that's the one design is just a tich longer than 15 feet. I have plans for a 14' 4" version. The boat is beamy and stable, it's build with inside flotation tanks, and I would probably build it with an offset daggerboard instead of the centerline centerboard. That would open up the space in the middle of the boat for sleeping.

I'm about a year away from the build, so you are all helping me coalesce my thoughts.

Another pic of the Caragogne..

dbf76c7ac82fe8043aac5a1dc50413d2.jpg

it would have oars on it, to do that last two hundred yards into the anchorage or the marina or to the launch ramp when the wind dies, but that is NOT a row-cruiser.

It's one or the other.

[amish rob]

Yes that one is - a 'Mascareta', though some varieties have curved sides (all flat-bottomed though). The best places to have a drool are:

http://www.veniceboats.com/eng-fleet.htm

and:

http://www.velaalterzo.com/

The second link is focused on sailing which is, surprisingly, very much a minority interest on the lagoon. Rowing is king.

Another area of inspiration might be further east, I believe that 'Sampan' means 'three planks'?

3A93D1BA-6317-482C-B5A5-25230900BEB8.jpg

04B76CF6-3B23-4F3B-B11D-51BF214F7534.jpg

Can’t find any pictures of my “proper” sampan. They might be in film. I have sort of a thing for three board boats.

[Clarkey]

Me too, there is something magical in how three flat boards can be bent into such rakish, swooping shapes. I'd say, looking at your fleet, you are more than ready for something Venetian!

If you want lines plans I heartily recommend 'Boats of Venice' by Riccardo Pergolis, the most beautiful book I own.

https://www.amazon.com/Barche-Venezi...5734165&sr=8-1

It has plans of all the main types (and quite a few more obscure ones) with both Italian and English text.

[Gib Etheridge]

There will be times when once committed to a crossing you will need to go for much longer than a couple of hours. Over a few hours time the wind and tides can change radically. Not saying don't go for it, not at all, but you will do well to be prepared which means knowing your limitations and it will be better that you know them ahead of time, like before it's too late.. A small gasoline driven or electric outboard as backup may be required That way you get to come home and continue posting.

[rgthom]

Don't let these guys scare you too much . The Delta has a lot of places to stop and rest. You may need to hammer across an open stretch to get to a sheltered shore a few times, but mostly it is easy cruising in the wind shadow of a levee.

[Alan H]

Don't let these guys scare you too much . The Delta has a lot of places to stop and rest. You may need to hammer across an open stretch to get to a sheltered shore a few times, but mostly it is easy cruising in the wind shadow of a levee.

While I haven't spent that much time in the Delta, generally, I've spent time around Bethel Island. I'm not worried about oar cruising in the Delta, from a "can I get there? Will it be safe?" point of view. Ditto for rowing around Redwood Creek, which honestly will be 80% of my on-the-water-time. I'm not planning to launch off an Oregon coastal beach and row 30 miles up to the next river bar crossing! I've also recently watched some video about the Missouri Breaks and I have to say that looks like a REALLY cool paddling/camping trip.

The only boat I've ever seen that's optimized for row cruising is your boat. Were I to build a row cruiser from one of Flo-Mo's hulls, or from the Butler dory, I would pretty surely include side tanks/seats like your Walkabout, and use a sliding seat system a lot like what you've designed.