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Thread: Vendee Globe Race Thread

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Latest update:

    Jean le Cam has arrived in the area and has seen Kevin in his life raft. He is under engine preparing to recover Escoffier. More info to come.
    Escoffier set off his distress signal, reported water ingress. Sounds like the boat is gone. Le Cam is under power to recover Escoffier.
    -Dave

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    A long wait to know if Kevin is ok. There is some news reported from LeMonde that Le Cam had engine failure, and so another 4 boats have been directed to the area. Also a comment that the liferaft was empty.......

    Fingers and toes crossed for all involved and Kevin is picked up alive.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by artif View Post
    Don't see the point in foiling mono's, why handicap yourself. Multis and foils or as already mentioned Sailrocket type vessels are the way forward. After all the whole point of racing is going fast, class racing is for those who cant afford the top end stuff.
    As for windsurfing and dinghy sailing, well, Kite surfing happened and more recently kite/wing foiling.
    Who wants to spend a several £/$K on a slow dinghy stuck to the water with all hassle of a trailer etc, when you can literally fly on or over the sea for less than a couple of £/$k and fit the whole kit in the back of a small car.
    Our local boat club might have a couple of dinghies out on a good day whereas there will be 100's of kite surfers out, they are the new version of dinghy sailors.
    Sorry, I was trying to get away but I can't leave such an utterly incorrect post unanswered.

    It is completely and utterly untrue to say that "the whole point of racing is going fast, class racing is for those who can't afford the top end stuff". Racing is about the challenge of sailing well and testing one's skill and having interesting fun with others; going fast is irrelevant to most people. After all, almost no racing is all about reaching, which is the fastest point of sail.

    To do what you did, and look at my own club as an example, the top four sailors all own catamarans - and all sail Lasers or similar boats. Those sailors include one of the world's top foiling cat sailors, who is NOT sailing a slower class because he "can't afford the top end"; it's actually cost him cash to put his sponsored cat ashore and buy a slower dinghy. He did it because he finds the racing more fun. The top two, incidentally, are both successful in windsurfers and in much faster racing dinghies (ie both have been on world and national championship podiums in each type) as well as in cats, so both of them have clearly made a choice to spend money to sail slower class racing dinghies instead of just sailing their fast stuff.

    Looking further afield shows just how completely wrong your claim is. The guy who has finished 2nd and 3rd the last two years in the biggest national title in the worlds cheapest International class formerly ran a $17 billion merchant bank. You are claiming that a multi-millionaire like that is sailing the cheapest class because he can't afford (say) a $3500 kite...... Really?

    Incidentally, the top sailor in that class (which is about as fast as a Laser) is also a kitesurfer. The guy who is second on the list of national champs is a former kitesurfing national champ. These guys are NOT sailing class stuff because they cannot sail or afford kites, foilers or other types.

    The same sort of thing applies in Lasers; the people whose financial situation I know at national level here include one who has a $8 million house; two medical specialists; one whose dad owns a carbon grand prix 62'er; and one who has just sold a new 36' offshore racer. To claim that such people are sailing class boats like Lasers because they "can't afford top end stuff" is completely and utterly untrue.

    Re the "when it comes to windsurfing"...... jeezers!!!! No, it wasn't as simple as that and some people - including the CEOs of the biggest brands in the industry, academic economists, journalists, people from competitive industries and others have given detailed descriptions of why it was not as simple as that.

    As I said, I'm trying to stop the diversion but it's hard to walk away from completely untrue claims.

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    ...meanwhile, back in the Southern Ocean, Escoffier is in his life raft and has been communicating. Le Cam spotted him but was unable to make the rescue. Apparently due to Le Cam's engine problems, the two lost visual contact.
    -Dave

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Le Cam has rescued Escoffier.

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    ...and it was Le Cam who was rescued himself in a previous race.
    -Dave

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Excellent news on the rescue.

    Apologies for the drift.



    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Sorry, I was trying to get away but I can't leave such an utterly incorrect post unanswered.

    It is completely and utterly untrue to say that "the whole point of racing is going fast, class racing is for those who can't afford the top end stuff". Racing is about the challenge of sailing well and testing one's skill and having interesting fun with others; going fast is irrelevant to most people. After all, almost no racing is all about reaching, which is the fastest point of sail.

    I'll agree in part with that, I should have said racing is about racing. Racing little dinghies is never going to be about going fast, but it is about going as fast as possible within the parameters. A bit like the TDF and Formula (dull) One


    To do what you did, and look at my own club as an example, the top four sailors all own catamarans - and all sail Lasers or similar boats. Those sailors include one of the world's top foiling cat sailors, who is NOT sailing a slower class because he "can't afford the top end"; it's actually cost him cash to put his sponsored cat ashore and buy a slower dinghy. He did it because he finds the racing more fun. The top two, incidentally, are both successful in windsurfers and in much faster racing dinghies (ie both have been on world and national championship podiums in each type) as well as in cats, so both of them have clearly made a choice to spend money to sail slower class racing dinghies instead of just sailing their fast stuff.

    Why race in a slower class, why is it more fun, I suspect its due to there being more competitors/races. Again, I can sympathise with that.


    Looking further afield shows just how completely wrong your claim is. The guy who has finished 2nd and 3rd the last two years in the biggest national title in the worlds cheapest International class formerly ran a $17 billion merchant bank. You are claiming that a multi-millionaire like that is sailing the cheapest class because he can't afford (say) a $3500 kite...... Really?


    Incidentally, the top sailor in that class (which is about as fast as a Laser) is also a kitesurfer. The guy who is second on the list of national champs is a former kitesurfing national champ. These guys are NOT sailing class stuff because they cannot sail or afford kites, foilers or other types.

    The same sort of thing applies in Lasers; the people whose financial situation I know at national level here include one who has a $8 million house; two medical specialists; one whose dad owns a carbon grand prix 62'er; and one who has just sold a new 36' offshore racer. To claim that such people are sailing class boats like Lasers because they "can't afford top end stuff" is completely and utterly untrue.

    I suspect they like the competitive aspect rather than the speed

    Re the "when it comes to windsurfing"...... jeezers!!!! No, it wasn't as simple as that and some people - including the CEOs of the biggest brands in the industry, academic economists, journalists, people from competitive industries and others have given detailed descriptions of why it was not as simple as that.

    Of course its simple, kite surfing is more accessible and easier to get going fast and higher airs. My own experience with windsurfing was less than inspiring, growing up on the coast I had numerous opportunities to try it, but found it tedious in the extreme, kites were a revelation in comparison. Within a couple of hours I was flying across the waves, third time out I was pulling airs. Windsurfing would have taken months/years to get the same buzz, with ideal conditions required.
    A couple of anecdotes re windsurfing. Years ago I was talking to a sponsored pro windsurfer, he sold all his windsurfing kit the day after trying kitesurfing.
    A couple of colleagues are ex/current windsurfers, who are very anti Kitesurfing, mainly because they have invested time and money in their chosen sport and their reluctance to try kites is almost comical.



    As I said, I'm trying to stop the diversion but it's hard to walk away from completely untrue claims.
    You have cited various club races as your bench mark, which is fine, its easier to play around in slow/cheap boats and get a bit of a scene going on locally, not much point racing on your own. Kite racing is still a bit of niche sport, and I hope it stays that way.
    This Vendee race is just club racing on a long route, ie boats that are built within certain parameters to make it a competition. Therefore, why not just give the racers identical boats, the foils looked to have been stuck-on to pretend they are cutting edge, while being drastically slower than multis etc.
    I would rather see the best/fastest boats competing i.e no holds barred innovative sailing craft doing a race around the world, but that is way out of my pay grade

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    What do the rules say about a rescue?
    2 people on board, it that Le Cam out?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    "In four seconds the boat nosedived, the bow folded at 90°. I put my head down in the cockpit, a wave was coming. I had time to send one text before the wave fried the electronics. It was completely crazy. It folded the boat in two. I’ve seen a lot before but this one…

    Boat lost, skipper saved.

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Last time I recall this happening, the rescued sailor just rode out the race with strict rules not to help sail the boat. The racer was credited with the time spent executing the rescue. If this is the plan this time, I hope Jean has a good supply of food. There's still a long way to go.

    Kevin describes on video what happened. His boat split and folded in half. He had very little time to escape. And the breakage occurred despite extensive reinforcing of the hull prior to the race.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Last time I recall this happening, the rescued sailor just rode out the race with strict rules not to help sail the boat. The racer was credited with the time spent executing the rescue. If this is the plan this time, I hope Jean has a good supply of food. There's still a long way to go.

    Kevin describes on video what happened. His boat split and folded in half. He had very little time to escape. And the breakage occurred despite extensive reinforcing of the hull prior to the race.
    Imagine an “extra ballast” penalty, or somesuch!

    These cats are insane. In. Sane.

    It’s amazing to see a sport where competitors will literally risk their lives for each other, though. Amazing.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Last time I recall this happening, the rescued sailor just rode out the race with strict rules not to help sail the boat. The racer was credited with the time spent executing the rescue. If this is the plan this time, I hope Jean has a good supply of food. There's still a long way to go.

    Kevin describes on video what happened. His boat split and folded in half. He had very little time to escape. And the breakage occurred despite extensive reinforcing of the hull prior to the race.
    Right. This incident isn't the first time a competitor's been rescued.

    Le Cam himself suffered a similar mishap (2009) when his mount -

    01215285.jpg

    - turned turtle (around the same point in the race?) trapping him inside until rescued. Ironic in that his rescuer Vincent Riou was piloting PRB back then.

    The forces these designs have to endure it's incredible any survive two months at sea at all.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sp_clark View Post
    turned turtle (around the same point in the race?) trapping him inside until rescued..
    Le Cam was 200 West of Cape Horn when he went over.

    Nice to see a video of Kevin this morning, all smiles, if shocked as to what happened with his boat. Bravo to all concerned. Perhaps Hugo Boss can pick him up on the way to Cape Town. Le Cam was looking ragged this morning, but still all smiles.
    I think Goss got awarded the Legion of Honour for rescuing Raphael Dinelli in 96/97 race.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Clever feature on the (English language) VG tracker website:

    Screen Shot 2020-12-01 at 4.49.34 PM.jpg

    Red-highlighted menu options at right, the bottom one shows surface winds, your cursor location reads out speed and direction.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Looks like Tripon in the big scow has put in the first mega days run of 496nm. He looks to be following the ice limit and the shorter route. Interested to see how this develops.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Bruce Schwab.s boat was wood. I wonder how it would go retrofited with a canting keel.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Both Sam Davis and Sebastion Simon heading for Cape Town due to structure damage, both with hitting objects at speed, in Sams case 20knots to zero.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flobart View Post
    Both Sam Davis and Sebastion Simon heading for Cape Town due to structure damage, both with hitting objects at speed, in Sams case 20knots to zero.
    That’s scary.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    That’s scary.
    Indeed. One would think it is easy enough to design a boat that will be structureley sound running aground or into a rock at "normal" displacement sailing speeds; but the calculations for a boat doing 20knots+ into an object with the lever arm of a keel 12ft down takes some working out. They do have sonar "pingers" on the keels to warn wildlife, so i hope no whales were harmed in that incident, a torpedo shaped lead bulb travelling at 20 knots with 8 tons of momentum behind it has got to hurt . I believe orcas use a ramming technique to take down larger whales.

    Hope she makes it in one piece to CT.

  20. #125
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Yep. Two more foilers out, and Le Cam is working on regaining the ground lost for the rescue. I haven't seen any word on how much time he'll be credited, but with that correction considered, he's probably still in third place. So we're up to four boats out and the tough part of the race has just gotten under way. Yikes.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flobart View Post
    Indeed. One would think it is easy enough to design a boat that will be structureley sound running aground or into a rock at "normal" displacement sailing speeds; but the calculations for a boat doing 20knots+ into an object with the lever arm of a keel 12ft down takes some working out. They do have sonar "pingers" on the keels to warn wildlife, so i hope no whales were harmed in that incident, a torpedo shaped lead bulb travelling at 20 knots with 8 tons of momentum behind it has got to hurt . I believe orcas use a ramming technique to take down larger whales.

    Hope she makes it in one piece to CT.
    I always think about sailboats hauling like that, and striking a container. Hitting a container at 20+ knots would be bad news, I’d think.

    Actually, the whole thing makes me think of the loads sailboats regularly carry or generate. In the rigging and hull and etc. Crazy...

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    I wonder if these monohulls are just too heavily loaded for the current state of materials technology? I know multihulls have their own loading issues and failures but at least they aren't trying to wave 3 tonnes of lead about while doing 20-30 knots. They also generally float quite well even after catastrophic damage - I think they are now inherently safer than these extreme monos.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    I wonder if these monohulls are just too heavily loaded for the current state of materials technology? I know multihulls have their own loading issues and failures but at least they aren't trying to wave 3 tonnes of lead about while doing 20-30 knots. They also generally float quite well even after catastrophic damage - I think they are now inherently safer than these extreme monos.
    I believe it may be as simple as they are racing boats, and some builders take the safety factor margin to its minimum, and take that risk for a faster boat.

    They could make a series of steel, almost indestructible hulls, i would then expect the damages would occur with the masts coming down as they could push the boats harder.

    The leader in the race has been trying to slow his boat down, and that seems to be an issue with boats that can not reduce the foil in the water; they seem to be getting lift and going faster when the skipper wants to slow down. Seems more likely variable foils will be a future choice for those who do not have them already.

    Team Phillips was abandon by its crew after losing half a hull, but yes, at least it still floated.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Bruce Schwab.s boat was wood. I wonder how it would go retrofited with a canting keel.
    Great looking boat, but the dimensions seem to show it wouldn't have a chance. She's almost 20% heavier than the foilers (which are themselves often heavier than the non-foilers) and she's got only 2/3rds the sail area. The stability would also be much lower because of the much narrower beam and the resulting effect, under the Open 60 rules, of dramatically limiting the amount of cant and righting moment the keel can generate.

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Bruce Schwab.s boat was wood. I wonder how it would go retrofited with a canting keel.
    I thought it had a canting keel - at least until they* ripped it off cutting a corner in Goose Rock Passage heading out of Robinhood.

    * I don't think Bruce was aboard when they did that.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    I wonder if these monohulls are just too heavily loaded for the current state of materials technology? I know multihulls have their own loading issues and failures but at least they aren't trying to wave 3 tonnes of lead about while doing 20-30 knots. They also generally float quite well even after catastrophic damage - I think they are now inherently safer than these extreme monos.
    It's an interesting question, although the 2002 Route de Rhum catastrophe indicates that the multis have major issues of their own. I went to a talk with Nigel Irens after that and he said that the 60' tris had just basically become too big for their length; too much rig, too much emphasis on sail carrying power over safety. The MOD 70s were the reaction to that and they may demonstrate that the concept of a class with less sail area for length creates a generally better boat; something which could apply to Open 60s as well.

    The tris that have gone around the world singlehanded and been quicker than the Open 60s are significantly longer boats. I can't recall, or find a mention of, any 60' tri that has gone around the world faster than the Open 60 monos, although in trans-Atlantic races the tris are clearly much quicker.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post

    The tris that have gone around the world singlehanded and been quicker than the Open 60s are significantly longer boats. I can't recall, or find a mention of, any 60' tri that has gone around the world faster than the Open 60 monos, although in trans-Atlantic races the tris are clearly much quicker.
    The ORMA 60ft tris of the 80,s/90,s were not Southern Ocean boats. After the 2002 (i think) Route de rhum, many of the top skippers of the day, including Jean LeCam, pulled out of that class and into the Open 60. The tris went on to the MOD70 class, but has not taken off in the same way. It might appear they are good for record attempts, but for single handed around the world events, the skippers prefer to have a monohull.

    Both Thomson and Davies are now in Cape Town. Sam looking to hopefully repair and continue, if only for the adventure and the charity she is supporting.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    This is clearly all about pushing the limits of both technological possibility and human ability/endurance. Of course it's possible to have a class with limits to LD and sail area, Knox Johnson tried that with the bullet proof steel boats and in an alternative direction there was previously a game where increasingly bigger monos were knocked down in size by smaller/lighter multi's.Foible apparently got to the point that weight reduction of the multis invariably resulted in them getting simply blown away when the wind increased.SO now you have boats with mass enough to handle deep Southern Ocean conditions and they are always going to get broken down there. Making them stronger and a bit heavier is too much an easy way out, which kills speed and stirs the vicious circle where more sail power causes more failure. Comes down to having money/ resources to throw at it and admittedly there is the skipper shooting for invincibility.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    The standings now are quite interesting as far as the current technology goes.
    There are 28 boats left in the race. Five have abandoned the race, all foiled boats.
    Of those remaining, among the 14 in the front half of the fleet 8 have foils, 6 do not. In the back half of the fleet, 6 have foils, 8 do not.
    I expected to see the foilers walk away from the older boats when they got into the higher winds, but this hasn't happened. Mostly likely because the water is too rough down there to get the hulls totally clear of the water and allow the foils do their thing. All boats, foils or not, seem to top out around 16 knots when you look at the four-hour averages.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    In a way I am surprised because my first reaction wen I saw how the foilers sailed was that they appeared to move far more easily than the traditional boats, which seemed to have turned into submarines with extremely heavy rig loadings. What I think I missed was how much extra righting moment the foilers generate and how the loads are concentrated - together with extremely dynamic crash situations when things go pear-shaped.

    Taking a very high level view I think the problem they need to solve is modulating the power from the rig when they transition from displacement to foiling mode - a bit like land yachts, a smaller rig will always be faster as long as it can get moving in the first place. A method of reefing without stopping the boat would be the first step I think?

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    I expected to see the foilers walk away from the older boats when they got into the higher winds, but this hasn't happened. Mostly likely because the water is too rough down there to get the hulls totally clear of the water and allow the foils do their thing. All boats, foils or not, seem to top out around 16 knots when you look at the four-hour averages.
    From the very start, the foilers never got the right conditions that they need to excel, being mainly flat seas. Given that most boats once a weather system ahead are unlikely to get caught, the foilers should have been out into the lead before getting into the Southern Ocean. I was glad to see such a mixed fleet and so many boats in a tight group. Perhaps it does show that the "old" boats are just as effective outside of "perfect foiling conditions", but will never be able to do sustained 30 knot plus like a foil boat is capable of in the right conditions .

    Those 67ft British Steel Challenge boats were pretty bomb proof, and the winners were basically the crew rather than any boat advantage as they were all the same, so more of an endurance test of pushing and routing choices, without bringing the mast down.

    Some of the boats like Hugo Boss were designed for downwind speed as a priority, and its a shame we did not get to see it perform in anger. I believe the 2 leading boats were popped from the same mould, but with different foil packages, one more designed for down wind vs reaching, so it will be of interest to see how that pans out. still a long way to go.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    It's still a "long way to go" ifthe most southerly close to the ice is avoided (I'm not sure if race rules in this one are intended to prevent flirting with ice), but of the shortest circuit is chosen th distance need not be that great. Main problem then will be eminent foil damage and loss....luck might determine the outcome anyway. Since I am not following this by watching the tracker, it will be interesting to hear if any boattries using foiling speed to cut deep South then gybe and northwrds away from the ice in a series of legs to try and maintain some foiling advantage rather than just surfing. Surfing speed (mentioned above as topping 16knts) shows design for planing/foiling is virtually useless in comparison to a displacement multihull down there.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Succesfull transfer of Kevin off Yes We Cam. Did not see any transfer of food going on, so guess Jean has enough to see him through. Video on the Vendee home page.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flobart View Post
    Succesfull transfer of Kevin off Yes We Cam. Did not see any transfer of food going on, so guess Jean has enough to see him through. Video on the Vendee home page.
    A small bag of stuff was transferred just before Kevin jumped off.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Yah, report says pate, crisps & butter:

    https://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/news/...gain-naturally

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