Vendee Globe Race Thread

[Mark0]

Sure Dave, anything with wings isn't worth messing about with

While I love traditional boats these racing machines are impressive so see in person. We happened to be around in Brest when the fleet was finishing a race. We could barely keep up in our friends fishing boat ! (planing).

Cheers,
Mark

[RFNK]

I don't like reproductions or retro either. I just don't think foils will really do much for sailing in the long-term and I find them ugly, beyond ugly. I can't really see why foils are okay but extra hulls, outriggers etc. aren't. If foils weren't approved for the Vendee Globe, banned along with multihulls, I think it would be a better, more competitive event. I suspect that it won't be long before mainstream, leading edge sailing races, abandon foils.

[RFNK]

A ship lost 83 containers off Port Stephens in 2018. The ship was the YM Efficiency

[sp_clark]

The World Shipping Council did a ten-year study on this and from the data gathered says that an average of just under 1400 containers are lost at sea every year.

https://www.maritime-executive.com/a...s-racing-yacht

Note the comment linked to an NOAA estimate of 10,000 boxes lost annually. Strictly my guess that the real number’s maybe somewhere between 1,400 - 10,000?

Collisions happen.

[RFNK]

I don't think the risk of hitting containers is a reason to abandon foils. I do think the risks to wildlife are, along with their flimsiness, cost, ugliness and detraction from development of more efficient, more robust boats.

[Woxbox]

As to the future of foiling, the real question is at what point are foilers no longer sailboats? The record holder, SailRocket, uses a foil to hold the craft down, to prevent it from flying. Sooner or later we'll see such a boat developed for open ocean work. I find these developments fascinating both from an engineering perspective and as the pursuit of breaking what were thought to be the bounds of what's possible.

The solo round-world record took Francois Gabart just 42 days in a big foiling trimaran. The last Vendee was won in 74 days. The Vendee boats have a long way to go. Gabart averaged more than 30 knots in his 100-foot beast of a boat. How he managed it solo is beyond me.

But what I find fascinating is that the technology used by SailRocket does not require a big boat to work. In fact, the kite boarders aren't far behind SailRocket's speed. As technology and design develop, wouldn't it be something to see boats the size of the Mini-Transats flying across the waves at 30-40 knots? (If they're still to be called boats.) I'm betting they'll get there.

The oceans are still pretty big. I think there's room out there for all sorts of boats.

[RFNK]

I agree with that. Optimistically, the AC and VG boats are a step towards that. Perhaps I'm not optimistic enough to see the link just yet.

[sp_clark]

As technology and design develop, wouldn't it be something to see boats the size of the Mini-Transats flying across the waves at 30-40 knots? (If they're still to be called boats.) I'm betting they'll get there.

The oceans are still pretty big. I think there's room out there for all sorts of boats.

Pearl-UFO.jpg

Something more to a personal scale...

[RFNK]

That's a great shot but it also provides a good example of what, rightly or wrongly, I don't really like about foilers. You have a whole boat which quickly becomes redundant (in effect) once the boat rises on the foils. Not only does it do that, it looks like it does that. Clumsy. The actual boat sort of waving in the air. I know that doesn't really make sense but it's an aesthetic about foilers that I find ugly.

[Chris249]

It isn't just the Vendee Globe thats being affected by breakages.The Jules Verne contenders set off during the week and Gitana 17 has broken a rudder and foil.I have to believe the damage is simply a function of the speed when I remember the equation for kinetic energy is greatly changed by V squared and these boats have a huge amount of V.

I find it a bit sad that there is so much antipathy here to the boats and the race.These people are pushing the boundaries and the fact that 800,000 competitors are involved in the online race should show that lots of people are interested.The competitors are superstars in France and there are lots of younger sailors who aspire to get into this form of racing.Other countries revere other sports,see if you can find any French interest in your own preferred sport.There are,to the best of my knowledge,no French NASCAR drivers.

My other sport is cycling, and the French certainly are interested in cycling. Cycling, even at Tour level, is done on gear that is heavily and specifically restricted so that the pros use the same gear as weekend warriors. I have regularly ridden to work on a bike that is faster than most Tour de France winning bikes (ie a TT bike). Cycling attracts vast audiences and huge fields because the weekend warriors can use the same kit as pros and therefore relate to them.

The problem with pushing the boundaries is that it can push people away from the sport. Most keen sailors in the world cannot sail foilers. They can, however, sail Lasers, ORC/PHRF boats, etc. When even the average keen competitor cannot practically use the same style of kit as the pros do, the sport suffers. One of the world's best foiler sailors is at my club. Even he cannot practically use his foiling cat at our typical club. If even Olympic medallists can't use bleeding edge gear at a typical club, what message does that give to the rest of the sailors?

The term "technological overshoot" has been coined to describe what happens when a sport develops and promotes gear that the typical person cannot use. It's a massive problem for sports, as windsurfing proved. I was windsurfing in Europe when even guys like me would get asked for autographs, and the stars had security guards and barricades to keep fans in line. Some young sailors aspired to get into the "extreme" windsurfing that was evolving then, but far more looked at it and said "I can't do that, so I won't" and walked away. Today, most of the big firms in windsurfing have realised that promoting the extreme end of the sport was wrong. Sailing should be wary of the same problem.

The fact that 800,000 people are doing the online race when sailing is losing actual participant numbers may just prove that online interest does not translate to actual interest. The study of technological overshoot, social construction of technology and other areas related to technology and sports participation show that there are great perils in promoting an elitist, inaccessible view of a sport.

[Chris249]

The last time I checked up, by the way, adding foils to an Open 60 increased cost something like 20% (IIRC) for something like a 2% overall speed gain. Even in Moths, which gain more speed from foils than any other boat, adding foils increases costs by about 100% while increasing overall speed by some 30%. Other issues, such as maintenance, also increase.

The mantra promoted a while ago was that "foils are the future". That means that the average sailor has no future in sailing. Even allowing for hyperbole, that's not good for the sport - a sport that boomed when boats like Snipes, Mirrors and Windsurfers were seen as the future.

[Flobart]

Thomson is heading for Cape Town, his race has ended. I do not see how anyone can suggest his "approach" is to blame, when it appears his rudder damage is due to hitting an object in the water.

To those who do not like foils, there are other classes you can follow. The rules for the IMOCA are made up by vote within the existing teams, similar to a degree that is in F1. If you do not like foils, you can always get a builder and a designer together, join the IMOCA and then you can have a say as to what you want or do not.

Same for the Americas Cup, the winning team get to decide the rules for the following challenge, they obviously have no concern for your feelings regarding their own development and strategy to win.

LeCam still in 3rd place this morning in his "old" boat.

Agree with Woxbox, the ocean is big enough for all and the negative whining will not change the current reality.

[Chris249]

I quite like seeing the best in the business pushing the boundaries and showing what can be achieved.

With much respect, there's part of the issue there. Shorthanded ocean racing in 60' foilers is basically restricted to a small bunch of people, largely European, who can find huge amounts of sponsorship. They are not necessarily the best in the business. To class them as the best means ignoring a large number of very talented people who don't happen to be great at collecting big bucks and at sailing a specialised machine.

When one starts to say that only a very small proportion of people, largely those in a small corner of the world and those who can and will talk big bucks, are " the best" then one is saying that the vast majority of the world's young sailors can never be the best. That is imposing a big restriction on young sailors; effectively one is telling many of them that no matter how good they are at the sport, they are doomed to be also-rans. That's not a very effective way of bringing young people into sailing.

The sports and interests (including computer games, for example) that do really well are those that don't implicitly tell the vast majority of young talent to nick off, as pro foiling shorthanders basically do. The sports that do well are arguably those where the "trickle down" from the pros DOES flow down to weekend warriors.

[Chris249]

Thomson is heading for Cape Town, his race has ended. I do not see how anyone can suggest his "approach" is to blame, when it appears his rudder damage is due to hitting an object in the water.

To those who do not like foils, there are other classes you can follow. The rules for the IMOCA are made up by vote within the existing teams, similar to a degree that is in F1. If you do not like foils, you can always get a builder and a designer together, join the IMOCA and then you can have a say as to what you want or do not.

Same for the Americas Cup, the winning team get to decide the rules for the following challenge, they obviously have no concern for your feelings regarding their own development and strategy to win.

LeCam still in 3rd place this morning in his "old" boat.

Agree with Woxbox, the ocean is big enough for all and the negative whining will not change the current reality.

So, from now on you will never, ever, ever make a single remark that is negative about the politics of any country in which you are not a voter?

You will never, ever, ever, ever again many a single remark that is negative about a single aspect of any boat ever mentioned on this forum?

Some people have spent many hours volunteering to make the sport of sailing stronger and better, often with success. Why should such people be discouraged from exercising their right to free speech, in an area that some may have (for example) done formal study in?

Why should people who have, and do, participate in shorthanded offshore racing be discouraged from discussing issues about a sport in which they participate?

[Flobart]

So, from now on you will never, ever, ever make a single remark that is negative about the politics of any country in which you are not a voter?

This is not the Bilge. Soveriegn politics are not the same as class rules.

Many young people aspire to great races like the Vendee, much as some people dream of climbing Everest. Joe-bag-of-dohnuts is probably welcome to take part if he can afford it. Its not about being excluded, but it is about cost. How many sailing around in MIrror dinghies might complain they can not afford to race in F40 trimarans, that many may actually be able to afford in comparison to an IMOCA?

Surely it is better to find a class of boat you can afford and enjoy, rather than complaining about design asthetics of ones you can not. I have no aversion to people having a matter of opinion, only that it does not have to be repeatedly posted, most people here can read.

[John Meachen]

Well,in summary to several previous posters I do have a few points for consideration.The cycling analogy is an interesting one.I think pro cycling stinks;however hard it tries there is the background image of a "sport" dependant on pharmaceutical assistance.I live on a suburban road that sees heavy usage by recreational cyclists.I would estimate that on an average weekend day no more than three or four minutes passes without one or more going by.Quite often in groups of seven to ten.I know nothing about the technology that might be current in the field but I do notice that about ninety percent look to be equipped with impressive equipment and a good few are wearing the outfits with sponsor's names all over them.Leaving aside the lameness of paying for material that advertises somebody else's business,I note that they don't actually compete.That would lead to the very real risk of not winning and thus becoming a "loser" -which nobody relishes. The fear of such a label being applied seems to be behind the reduction in activity in a lot of sports and our schools discourage too much competition because of the fear of stigmatising those who don't succeed.

If the thought of 800,00 online sailors seems odd,feel free to set up an online game for the North American Snipe Championship.Those who were actually there for the last such event might be glad of the chance to re-run the event with the benefit of hindsight in their locker.The rest of the world?

For the aspirational French sailor the Vendee Globe/Transat Jacques Vabre/Route du Rhum can be the route to great acclaim and a pleasant lifestyle.I doubt it has the same appeal to a daydreamer in North Carolina who has NASCAR on his doorstep.Just as you can't turn up in France and expect to have a competitive IMOCA 60 made available to you,the unknown walking into the premises of Richard Childress/Roger Penske/Chip Ganassi will soon be shown the door.It is a business and to gain admission you need to build a record of success on the lower rungs of the ladder.For the French it would be Mini Transat-Figaro-Imoca and the acclaim grows with improving results-as does the financial reward.You don't just get parachuted in with a competitive boat.

As for dislike of foilers,we all have our preferences and that is probably healthy.I can't help thinking of a quote from Olin Stephens;he was asked what he thought sailing would be like in a hundred years time and I am paraphrasing his answer-"I hope by then we won't be sailing in a element as sluggish as water."Which isn't too far from the state of foilers.If the cost of foils is 20% of the cost of the boat then doesn't it follow that a half decent hull could have a long life by simply having the foils replaced once in a while,rather than junking the whole boat.

The container issue is a bit of a puzzle;presumably only those containers which have a cargo with enough buoyancy to support a few tons of steel can remain near the surface.The rest will be reducing the depth of the oceans or pushing up sea levels.

[amish rob]

The quotes around sport in reference to cycling are just gross.

[John Meachen]

I have no doubt that Rob knows far more about what goes on in cycling than anybody else on this forum.

[amish rob]

Well, I know pedaling a bike and jumping a bike and etc. don’t deserve quotes around sport.


Is there doping/cheating? Omerta. Still. “Sport”? That’s bilge stuff.

I assume sailboat racing is like cycle racing in many ways; one being if you are talented and dedicated there are no hurdles to being one of the elites; however that is defined.

[Chris249]

If the cost of foils is 20% of the cost of the boat then doesn't it follow that a half decent hull could have a long life by simply having the foils replaced once in a while,rather than junking the whole boat.

Looking at the foiling classes, one sees that the developments in foils tend to feed back into developments that change hull shape, wing/rack/tramp design, structural loadings and rig design as well. The result seems to be that modifying an old boat is rarely worthwhile. A while back there was some noise about Bradley Gibson's heavy modifications to an "old" Bladerider Moth, but looking at the results it would seem that the boat is still well off the pace.

Leisure cyclists, by the way, often do have impressive bikes - but my grandmother could ride one of those bikes to the shops, subject to a change of pedals and seat and bar heights. The equipment rules ensure that even the normal Tour de France bikes are very slow compared to the fastest possible bicycle, but very practical and comparatively cheap. At Masters level, for example, you can be competitive at national level with a $1200 alloy bike that can be your daily ride to work. It works; cycling is by far the most popular equipment-intensive sport.

[amish rob]

Looking at the foiling classes, one sees that the developments in foils tend to feed back into developments that change hull shape, wing/rack/tramp design, structural loadings and rig design as well. The result seems to be that modifying an old boat is rarely worthwhile. A while back there was some noise about Bradley Gibson's heavy modifications to an "old" Bladerider Moth, but looking at the results it would seem that the boat is still well off the pace.

Leisure cyclists, by the way, often do have impressive bikes - but my grandmother could ride one of those bikes to the shops, subject to a change of pedals and seat and bar heights. The equipment rules ensure that even the normal Tour de France bikes are very slow compared to the fastest possible bicycle, but very practical and comparatively cheap. At Masters level, for example, you can be competitive at national level with a $1200 alloy bike that can be your daily ride to work. It works; cycling is by far the most popular equipment-intensive sport.

No. No you can’t be competitive at a National level on a cheap bike.

Just, no.

The UCI has strict rules about bicycles, and what constitutes a bicycle, what shape it is, etc, but there is no deliberate slowing or dumbing down.

Bikes in the peloton are as cutting edge as the rules allow.

[Chris249]

Well, I know pedaling a bike and jumping a bike and etc. don’t deserve quotes around sport.


Is there doping/cheating? Omerta. Still. “Sport”? That’s bilge stuff.

I assume sailboat racing is like cycle racing in many ways; one being if you are talented and dedicated there are no hurdles to being one of the elites; however that is defined.

It depends on the definition of "elite" you use in sailing. Getting into the elite pro shorthanded scene seems to be all but impossible for people outside Europe, for reasons including national culture and the marketing aspiration of sponsors. Years ago when I was still a sailing journalist I was in the press room when the ORMA 60 tris finished the OSTAR, and it was almost entirely dominated by French sailors, media and sponsors. Unless one is very adept at PR and speaks very good French, for example, one was said to be up against huge hurdles.

[amish rob]

It depends on the definition of "elite" you use in sailing. Getting into the elite pro shorthanded scene seems to be all but impossible for people outside Europe, for reasons including national culture and the marketing aspiration of sponsors. Years ago when I was still a sailing journalist I was in the press room when the ORMA 60 tris finished the OSTAR, and it was almost entirely dominated by French sailors, media and sponsors. Unless one is very adept at PR and speaks very good French, for example, one was said to be up against huge hurdles.

So, exactly like cycling.

[Chris249]

No. No you can’t be competitive at a National level on a cheap bike.

Just, no.

The UCI has strict rules about bicycles, and what constitutes a bicycle, what shape it is, etc, but there is no deliberate slowing or dumbing down.

Bikes in the peloton are as cutting edge as the rules allow.

Sure, they are as cutting edge as the rules allow - the point is that the rules and the Lugano Charter ensure that the rules are very strict in terms of reducing performance to improve accessibility. A UCI bike has a top speed over 500m alone of about 70kmh, whereas the "fastest possible" bikes (streamlined 'bents) can do over 100kmh on the flat. As you'd know, even a UCI legal TT bike is rated about 10% quicker than a UCI-legal mass-start bike but the UCI bans the TT bikes from mass starts. Tandems, quads etc are even faster most of the time, but banned from most events. So the standard UCI bike is cutting edge, but only within very restrictive rules.

My definition of "competitive at masters level" is being mid pack at national titles. I've done it myself at national and state level on things like a 105 level alloy bike, so I know it's possible to be competitive by that definition.

[amish rob]

Sure, they are as cutting edge as the rules allow - the point is that the rules and the Lugano Charter ensure that the rules are very strict in terms of reducing performance to improve accessibility. A UCI bike has a top speed over 500m alone of about 70kmh, whereas the "fastest possible" bikes (streamlined 'bents) can do over 100kmh on the flat. As you'd know, even a UCI legal TT bike is rated about 10% quicker than a UCI-legal mass-start bike but the UCI bans the TT bikes from mass starts. Tandems, quads etc are even faster most of the time, but banned from most events. So the standard UCI bike is cutting edge, but only within very restrictive rules.

My definition of "competitive at masters level" is being mid pack at national titles. I've done it myself at national and state level on things like a 105 level alloy bike, so I know it's possible to be competitive by that definition.

My definitely of competing at a National or a State level is making a podium. Top five minimum.

There are MANY reasons bents and TT bikes don’t ride mass start events, and safety is one. However, ever gone too far afield here.

Im satisfied that the analogy is apt. With skill and dedication there are no limits to where a person can race. Everyone has excuses, but loads of people make the cut, from all castes and classes, in all sports, regardless of equipment needs.

[Chris249]

So, exactly like cycling.

Nope. Look at the list of podium places in the Vendee, for example. There have been 21 people on the podium; 18 of them are French and three are from an island 25m off the French coast. That's almost utter domination by one tiny corner of the world.

In contrast, look at the list of podium places in the Tour (another French race, of course) or the gold medallists in Olympic sailing. At the Tour, there's been 16 nations on the podium over the same period, from Europe, North America, Australasia, and South America. In the sailing Olympics the USA, South America, Oceania and Asia are all successful.

The dominance of the French - a bunch of sailors I deeply admire - in shorthanded pro ocean racing has been going on for decades and it's not going away. When one nation dominates a sporting discipline so much, and does not dominate the rest of the sport, it seems to indicate that there are hurdles for people from other countries. And I've had friends who did the pro shorthanded circuit, sat in the OSTAR press room talking to the pros and organisers about these issues, and personally spoken to people like Frank Cammas about those hurdles. They do exist, quite definitely, and very much more so that in other sports and in other areas of sailing.

As a TT'er, I'm aware of the reasons why TT bikes, bents, tandems etc are normally barred from major events. That doesn't alter the fact that the world's most popular equipment-intensive sport is one where the legendary athletes and events use gear that is significantly slower and more accessible than other gear, and there seems to be something a fading sport like sailing could learn from that, as windsurfing has done.

Anyway, I'll bail out to avoid further diversion of the thread.

[Flobart]

Nope. Look at the list of podium places in the Vendee, for example. There have been 21 people on the podium; 18 of them are French and three are from an island 25m off the French coast. That's almost utter domination by one tiny corner of the world.

When one nation dominates a sporting discipline so much, and does not dominate the rest of the sport, it seems to indicate that there are hurdles for people from other countries.

If you want to climb Everest, you have to go where the mountain is. Many people who want to have a career in yacht racing move to France. It is all part of the journey.

[Flobart]

A gutted Alex....

[artif]

Don't see the point in foiling mono's, why handicap yourself. Multis and foils or as already mentioned Sailrocket type vessels are the way forward. After all the whole point of racing is going fast, class racing is for those who cant afford the top end stuff.
As for windsurfing and dinghy sailing, well, Kite surfing happened and more recently kite/wing foiling.
Who wants to spend a several £/$K on a slow dinghy stuck to the water with all hassle of a trailer etc, when you can literally fly on or over the sea for less than a couple of £/$k and fit the whole kit in the back of a small car.
Our local boat club might have a couple of dinghies out on a good day whereas there will be 100's of kite surfers out, they are the new version of dinghy sailors.

[Woxbox]

Latest update:

Jean le Cam has arrived in the area and has seen Kevin in his life raft. He is under engine preparing to recover Escoffier. More info to come.

Escoffier set off his distress signal, reported water ingress. Sounds like the boat is gone. Le Cam is under power to recover Escoffier.

[Flobart]

A long wait to know if Kevin is ok. There is some news reported from LeMonde that Le Cam had engine failure, and so another 4 boats have been directed to the area. Also a comment that the liferaft was empty.......

Fingers and toes crossed for all involved and Kevin is picked up alive.

[Chris249]

Don't see the point in foiling mono's, why handicap yourself. Multis and foils or as already mentioned Sailrocket type vessels are the way forward. After all the whole point of racing is going fast, class racing is for those who cant afford the top end stuff.
As for windsurfing and dinghy sailing, well, Kite surfing happened and more recently kite/wing foiling.
Who wants to spend a several £/$K on a slow dinghy stuck to the water with all hassle of a trailer etc, when you can literally fly on or over the sea for less than a couple of £/$k and fit the whole kit in the back of a small car.
Our local boat club might have a couple of dinghies out on a good day whereas there will be 100's of kite surfers out, they are the new version of dinghy sailors.

Sorry, I was trying to get away but I can't leave such an utterly incorrect post unanswered.

It is completely and utterly untrue to say that "the whole point of racing is going fast, class racing is for those who can't afford the top end stuff". Racing is about the challenge of sailing well and testing one's skill and having interesting fun with others; going fast is irrelevant to most people. After all, almost no racing is all about reaching, which is the fastest point of sail.

To do what you did, and look at my own club as an example, the top four sailors all own catamarans - and all sail Lasers or similar boats. Those sailors include one of the world's top foiling cat sailors, who is NOT sailing a slower class because he "can't afford the top end"; it's actually cost him cash to put his sponsored cat ashore and buy a slower dinghy. He did it because he finds the racing more fun. The top two, incidentally, are both successful in windsurfers and in much faster racing dinghies (ie both have been on world and national championship podiums in each type) as well as in cats, so both of them have clearly made a choice to spend money to sail slower class racing dinghies instead of just sailing their fast stuff.

Looking further afield shows just how completely wrong your claim is. The guy who has finished 2nd and 3rd the last two years in the biggest national title in the worlds cheapest International class formerly ran a $17 billion merchant bank. You are claiming that a multi-millionaire like that is sailing the cheapest class because he can't afford (say) a $3500 kite...... Really?

Incidentally, the top sailor in that class (which is about as fast as a Laser) is also a kitesurfer. The guy who is second on the list of national champs is a former kitesurfing national champ. These guys are NOT sailing class stuff because they cannot sail or afford kites, foilers or other types.

The same sort of thing applies in Lasers; the people whose financial situation I know at national level here include one who has a $8 million house; two medical specialists; one whose dad owns a carbon grand prix 62'er; and one who has just sold a new 36' offshore racer. To claim that such people are sailing class boats like Lasers because they "can't afford top end stuff" is completely and utterly untrue.

Re the "when it comes to windsurfing"...... jeezers!!!! No, it wasn't as simple as that and some people - including the CEOs of the biggest brands in the industry, academic economists, journalists, people from competitive industries and others have given detailed descriptions of why it was not as simple as that.

As I said, I'm trying to stop the diversion but it's hard to walk away from completely untrue claims.

[Woxbox]

...meanwhile, back in the Southern Ocean, Escoffier is in his life raft and has been communicating. Le Cam spotted him but was unable to make the rescue. Apparently due to Le Cam's engine problems, the two lost visual contact.

[Chris249]

Le Cam has rescued Escoffier.

[Woxbox]

...and it was Le Cam who was rescued himself in a previous race.