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Thread: Vendee Globe Race Thread

  1. #1
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    Default Vendee Globe Race Thread

    For a sailing community, a little surprised no one has started a thread. They left 3 days ago.

    vendee-globe-2020-preview-apivia-running-shot-credit-Maxime-Horlaville-polaRYSE-disobey..jpg


    https://www.vendeeglobe.org/en

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Thanks much for the reminder - it's a great endeavor!
    I first became aware of it from Derek Lundy's excellent book "Godforsaken Sea" <- highly recommended....
    Sometimes you've gotta leave the kibble out where the slow dogs can get some....
    ... Roy Blount, Jr.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    It is awesome but it sure doesn't look like fun. Interesting to finally see them realise that the sailor needs some protection from the elements to function properly. Blondie Hasler might even approve.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    I watched the live streaming of the start and look at the updates several times each day.I am still sad that I didn't get the chance to go and look at the boats preparing as they are quite inspirational.I wouldn't want to be out there doing it but the people who do are superstars in France and hundreds of thousands normally turn out to watch the starts.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    must love the french
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flobart View Post
    For a sailing community, a little surprised no one has started a thread. They left 3 days ago.

    vendee-globe-2020-preview-apivia-running-shot-credit-Maxime-Horlaville-polaRYSE-disobey..jpg


    https://www.vendeeglobe.org/en
    Well... this is a wooden boat forum. Not a whole lot of brightwork on those boats.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Well... this is a wooden boat forum. Not a whole lot of brightwork on those boats.
    Or much wood at all I'd have to think.

    'Least that craft's got a hull, even if it just holds the foils together most of the time.

    Sure hope they keep an eye out for almost-floating shipping containers....
    Last edited by sp_clark; 11-11-2020 at 08:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    While we like traditional boats, the technology on these racing machines is impressive. Our house is cheering for one team.

    boat.jpg

    sam.jpg

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    I've lost interest since they became so specialised, and so bent around the class rules. Foiling is quite fun but personally, I think the hassle factor increases more than the fun factor.

    The main issue for me is that elitism of this sort harms the perception of the sport, and makes people think that sailing is not a sport for them. Sailing thrives when it is promoted as something the average person can do, and it suffers from the perception that it's expensive, difficult, elitist and dangerous. The more the Vendee shoves itself into that corner, the less I'm interested.

    The other interesting thing is that the shorthanded boats have been pushing extremes of design since the '60s, and yet grass-roots shorthanded racing has only recently become popular - and the boats the grass roots uses are pretty normal fixed-ballast no-foil racer/cruisers like Jeanneaus, J 111s and JPKs. I suppose it depends on how one approaches spectator sports.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    I've lost interest since they became so specialised, and so bent around the class rules.

    The main issue for me is that elitism of this sort harms the perception of the sport, and makes people think that sailing is not a sport for them. Sailing thrives when it is promoted as something the average person can do, and it suffers from the perception that it's expensive, difficult, elitist and dangerous. The more the Vendee shoves itself into that corner, the less I'm interested.

    Class rules are suppose to level the playing field.

    Development at the pinicle of the sport often trickles down to mainstream. How about carbon ceramic brakes used in F1, now a standard fit on top end cars.

    There are plenty of classes for differing levels of budget, though racing around the world seems to be on a Volvo boat as crew, or a Golden Globe event, both not exactly cheap. Dons new Class Globe 580 event might be more to your liking, it does seem to be more accessable as you can build your own boat.

    https://www.classglobe580.com/


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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flobart View Post
    Class rules are suppose to level the playing field.

    Development at the pinicle of the sport often trickles down to mainstream. How about carbon ceramic brakes used in F1, now a standard fit on top end cars.

    There are plenty of classes for differing levels of budget, though racing around the world seems to be on a Volvo boat as crew, or a Golden Globe event, both not exactly cheap. Dons new Class Globe 580 event might be more to your liking, it does seem to be more accessable as you can build your own boat.

    https://www.classglobe580.com/

    Class rules don't always "level the playing field", and these ones don't. These are very expensive boats, and the foils are making them a lot more expensive from what I can find out. Sure, they fly on a reach, but they are one-trick ponies to a significant extent. What do you do with one if you live in Auckland, Sydney, San Francisco, or Naples? They are very specialised machines, and a class that can only really be sailed competitively in a tiny portion of the world is inherently elitist.

    Development often doesn't trickle down. How many "top end cars" have one seat, no roof, and F1 style wings? And even in F1, development is actually heavily restricted - where are the fan cars, the ground effect cars, the engines that only last for qualifying, and the many other performance-enhancing features that even F1 banned?

    The idea that development trickles down hasn't done much for sailing, arguably. The bleeding edge classes remain a very small minority. Even the most popular foiling boat is selling only 250 per year. The Moth and A Class are pretty stagnant in terms of numbers. The former bleeding edge classes are often dead or close to it. Meanwhile, the mass market keeps on using and buying boats without foils, high apparent wind assys, wings, canting keels, water ballast, and the other features that were seen on "leading edge" classes and have resolutely failed to be adopted by the typical sailor, who rightly values practicality and accessibility.

    Don's new boat isn't accessible in my terms. To do the race, one is going to need to get a whole new boat that will only really be much good at class racing. Class racing is only going to occur in a small corner of the world, so suddenly using the boat for what it's OK at will require a container, shipping, and air fares. The main event will take more than a year away from career and family, so it's very far from accessible.

    In the days when sailing was growing, the "grand prix" in boats of that length was classes like Mini Tonners. You could race them at your local club with success, race them at Cowes Week or Kiel Week or the Centromiglia or Block Island with success, then play at the top level with Olympic medallists by just spending a few weeks preparing and doing a world title. The boat could then return to local racing. That was a far more accessible model, and the sport boomed when playing the game at top level didn't involve living in one tiny corner of the world and giving up your job, your family and your normal life.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Don's new boat isn't accessible in my terms. To do the race, one is going to need to get a whole new boat that will only really be much good at class racing. Class racing is only going to occur in a small corner of the world, so suddenly using the boat for what it's OK at will require a container, shipping, and air fares. The main event will take more than a year away from career and family, so it's very far from accessible.

    .
    That boat is based on an already existing home build design for cruising, so the suggestion that it is only good for class racing is total nonsense.

    I believe the idea of local or national events are for the owners to organise if they wish to sail in class races of their own making. Don seems to be focusing on a Transatlantic and round the world event. It would be a lot easier to find sponsorship to campaign one of these than find 6 million sterling for a Hugo Boss.

    Would you have ever called a French Muscadet a boat for elites and a one trick pony?

    Anyone wanting to partake in a round the world race is going to have to be giving something up for that experience, whether its a 5metre or 50m boat.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flobart View Post
    Class rules are suppose to level the playing field.

    Development at the pinicle of the sport often trickles down to mainstream. How about carbon ceramic brakes used in F1, now a standard fit on top end cars.

    There are plenty of classes for differing levels of budget, though racing around the world seems to be on a Volvo boat as crew, or a Golden Globe event, both not exactly cheap. Dons new Class Globe 580 event might be more to your liking, it does seem to be more accessable as you can build your own boat.

    https://www.classglobe580.com/

    Damn it!

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flobart View Post


    Who is and why is the guy in the water trying to stop the boat? Is he about to get run over? Maybe he's holding the bow for a cold start... sort of the way they begin crew races. He seems to be standing on the bottom, so that boat's sailing in pretty thin water! Maybe the boat had already run aground... he's in there shoving her free. Yeah. That's gotta be the story here. But it sure seems like an odd way to advertise a new sail boat!

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    I think it’s a very clever way to demonstrate the scale the entire boat, actually. Shows the draft and overall size in relation to an “average” person well.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Lots of lead changes over the last day.It also look like two of the well fancied competitors who took time out for minor repairs are getting back to the bulk of the fleet.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flobart View Post
    That boat is based on an already existing home build design for cruising, so the suggestion that it is only good for class racing is total nonsense.

    I believe the idea of local or national events are for the owners to organise if they wish to sail in class races of their own making. Don seems to be focusing on a Transatlantic and round the world event. It would be a lot easier to find sponsorship to campaign one of these than find 6 million sterling for a Hugo Boss.

    Would you have ever called a French Muscadet a boat for elites and a one trick pony?

    Anyone wanting to partake in a round the world race is going to have to be giving something up for that experience, whether its a 5metre or 50m boat.
    Since the entire discussion was about racing, I thought it was obvious that's what I was referring to. Designs of the "Open style", even the more conservative ones like the 580, are rarely competitive in local racing under rules like PHRF, IRC, ORC, etc, so from a racing point of view the 5.8 seems unlikely to be "much good" for anything but class racing. When you get down to this sort of craft, things like the centreline assy also create significant issues when trying to be competitive. At 5.8 metres, it's also too short to be eligible in local offshore races in many areas, unfortunately.

    Sure, owners can organise local events - but owners in the other specialist shorthanded classes haven't done so outside of a corner of one continent. Sure, the 5.80 is cheaper, but it's not really set up for the sector of the shorthanded and offshore racing scene that seems to be growing the fastest, which is racing with standard ORC/IRC/OSIRIS/PHRF types. You don't have to be over the top with your response when someone is presenting a reasoned case, based on years of experience including occasional shorthanded racing for decades.

    What local shorthanded and other racing do you do, may I ask?

    I certainly wouldn't call the Muscadet an elitist boat or a one trick pony, because it's not. Its not proposing a main event that takes 390 days; it has a main event that takes three days. The Muscadet is a great boat for local racing under OSIRIS and with local fleets and regattas; the 580 doesn't look like a great boat for local racing.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Using a tropical depression to sling-shot South.......

    PICT6682.jpg

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Since the entire discussion was about racing, I thought it was obvious that's what I was referring to.



    What local shorthanded and other racing do you do, may I ask?

    the 580 doesn't look like a great boat for local racing.
    I do not take part in racing anymore, but once took part in Junior Offshore Group events. It may not suit "your" local racing, it may suit others, waters around the UK and Baltic are not the same found in your location. A one design programme is often enjoyed by those who want to compete against others in the same craft, rather than on a handicap, and buying into a Figaro or Mini 6.5 Class is beyond many. The Micro Class is still running in Europe, but are not targeted at offshore events.
    Why be negative about a new class that might bring newcomers into the sport?

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    At 5.8 metres, it's also too short to be eligible in local offshore races in many areas, unfortunately.

    .
    That is why this is a one design class, people building these in over 25 countries are probably not thinking about mixed fleet events, if they were, as you suggest, they might find a more suitable boat. The "one design" to some, is part of the attraction. I know a lot of people who think sailing around in circles and getting stressed about it is a complete polar opposite to why some people go to sea. I try not to make judgement calls.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flobart View Post
    I do not take part in racing anymore, but once took part in Junior Offshore Group events. It may not suit "your" local racing, it may suit others, waters around the UK and Baltic are not the same found in your location. A one design programme is often enjoyed by those who want to compete against others in the same craft, rather than on a handicap, and buying into a Figaro or Mini 6.5 Class is beyond many. The Micro Class is still running in Europe, but are not targeted at offshore events.
    Why be negative about a new class that might bring newcomers into the sport?
    I am VERY aware of the fact that waters and racing in other areas are different to my local waters and racing - why else would I have mentioned rules or sytems such as PHRF (mainly US) and OSIRIS (French) that are half a world away from my local waters?

    JOG, to use your example, races under IRC. It is generally found that small offshore style boats with asymmetric kites and "Open" style boats are not very competitive under the rules the JOG uses, which is why I said this boat may not be "much good" for racing like that.

    I am quite aware of the joys of one design racing, thank you. My point was the shorthanded racing that was growing the fastest was the racing that did not use one design classes, but used boats that are more competitive under IRC, ORC, etc than experience indicates that any 5.8m assy "offshore" boat will be.

    These boats are not just used for going around in circles, but for events like the Fastnet and trans-Atlantic events.

    Why ignore such issues when discussing new classes? Is this a forum in which we are supposed to suspend critical examination?

    I was NOT making a judgement call, but trying to discuss an issue. The negativity and judgement calls came from the person who used terms like "total nonsense".
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-15-2020 at 04:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    I've lost interest since they became so specialised, and so bent around the class rules..
    Says the man who goes on to say......

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    I was NOT making a judgement call, but trying to discuss an issue. The negativity and judgement calls came from the person who used terms like "total nonsense".
    I think you made it clear you are not a fan, and this thread is about the Vendee. Should you wish to discuss the merits and disadvantages of other forms of racing groups, you are free to start your own thread.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Flobart, thanks for starting the thread. I can't stand the foiling scene, but these new Vendee globes have one hull, so I am still in. Been tracking them and watching the dual between Alex and Le Cam.
    Clinton B. Chase
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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton B Chase View Post
    Flobart, thanks for starting the thread. I can't stand the foiling scene, but these new Vendee globes have one hull, so I am still in. Been tracking them and watching the dual between Alex and Le Cam.
    I would have thought someone else may have, i know these are not wooden boats as someone liked to point out, which is why it is in "misc" catagory.There is a foiling tri possibly due to leave the same port next week for a Jules Verne record attempt; they predict they may reach the Cape of Good Hope before any of the Vendee boats!! To me that is another level, something that actually looks like a boat, but is mostly flying permanently on foils.

    Quite something to see LeCam where he was, but he is an old salt in a strong boat. I expect the conditions now will favour the foilers, and they may extend a substantial lead.........if nothing breaks. Alex was told to put in a gybe near the centre of the depression Theta, as the readings from sensors showed he was pushing a bit too hard. A long way to go.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    The idea that development trickles down hasn't done much for sailing, arguably. The bleeding edge classes remain a very small minority. Even the most popular foiling boat is selling only 250 per year. The Moth and A Class are pretty stagnant in terms of numbers. The former bleeding edge classes are often dead or close to it. Meanwhile, the mass market keeps on using and buying boats without foils, high apparent wind assys, wings, canting keels, water ballast, and the other features that were seen on "leading edge" classes and have resolutely failed to be adopted by the typical sailor, who rightly values practicality and accessibility.
    ... I'd argue otherwise - laminate sails, fin keels/spade rudders, carbon spars & spinnaker poles, sailing instruments, geared winches, assymetric spinnakers, dyneema rope, foul weather gear... Just about everything that is either standard or becoming standard on a modern production cruising boat is related to kit initially developed for racing.

    It's unlikely that the Vendee boats are going to be a physical representation of the next generation of general purpose sailing boats and I agree that they are ultimately an evolutionary dead-end, but I'm certain that a the next generation of 'everyman boats' will be that much better for some of the cutting edge racing technology of today.

    I'm unlikely to ever have the chance to sail on one, or even see one in the flesh, but the fact that the Vendee boats exist, in all their flamboyant extravagance, surely has to be good for the sport in the long-term?

    It's an exciting race. I'm delighted a thread has been started on it...!

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    BTW, for anyone who wants to race their own Vendee (albeit from the comfort of their own living room), have a play on Virtual Regatta Offshore.

    https://www.virtualregatta.com/en/offshore-game/

    There are currently around 800,000 sailors from all around the world racing the Vendee online. You can join whenever you like, it will create a boat for you in the mid-fleet somewhere.

    The software can be a bit lumpy, I think their server is struggling with the number of people currently racing, but it's quite fun to dip in and out once of twice a day and work out your tactics using real-time weather.

    (I'm not related to Virtual Regatta in any way)

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    The gap widens. 21:00hr report. Hugo Boss with a 51nm lead over Le Cam, but the third place boat is 85nm behind in LeCams wake. Given the speeds, if Alex has a problem, LeCam will be on him within 2 hours. Is it better to chase or to lead?

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Le Cam has been doing a wonderful job so far.Interesting that there are 800,000 n the virtual race.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AndanteEd View Post
    ... I'd argue otherwise - laminate sails, fin keels/spade rudders, carbon spars & spinnaker poles, sailing instruments, geared winches, assymetric spinnakers, dyneema rope, foul weather gear... Just about everything that is either standard or becoming standard on a modern production cruising boat is related to kit initially developed for racing.

    It's unlikely that the Vendee boats are going to be a physical representation of the next generation of general purpose sailing boats and I agree that they are ultimately an evolutionary dead-end, but I'm certain that a the next generation of 'everyman boats' will be that much better for some of the cutting edge racing technology of today.

    I'm unlikely to ever have the chance to sail on one, or even see one in the flesh, but the fact that the Vendee boats exist, in all their flamboyant extravagance, surely has to be good for the sport in the long-term?

    It's an exciting race. I'm delighted a thread has been started on it...!
    Sure, racing developments in general have certainly trickled down, but the developments that do so are normally (as far as I can see) those that were created in classes closer to the "mainstream" rather than the major developments in "bleeding edge" or "extreme" classes like foiling Open 60s are, or which are easier to transfer to cruisers than foils are. I was taking the OP's reference to "pinnacle" classes in this context as referring to the "extreme" types like Open 60s, rather than "mainstream" types like ORC/IRC boats.

    For example, there were wingmasted tris and water ballasted monos in shorthanded racing as early as the 1960s, but such things are still very rare on cruisers. Canting keels have been around in Open classes for 29 years but remain extremely rare on cruising yachts. In branches of the sport like windsurfing and dinghy sailing the top selling classes are the ones that largely eschew the technology of the "bleeding edge" extreme high performance boats.

    Studies in the social construction of technology and issues like "technological overshoot" show that flambuoyant extravagance can be bad for a sport in the long term, as demonstrated in sailing as early as the sailing canoes of the 1800s and more recently, for example, in windsurfing.

    I just wrote my original post as a form of reply to the OP's surprise that no one had posted a thread on the Vendee earlier and because I have done a lot of research into issues like technoligical overshoot in sailing.
    Last edited by Chris249; 11-15-2020 at 04:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Corum was dismasted this morning, first rig failure and retirement. Heading towards the Cape Verdes under power.

    Hugo Boss extending a slight lead of 92nm over LeCam. Alex had a worried look on his face after hearing about the dismasting, as he shares the same rig.

    Leading boats may have an advantage crossing the doldrums before it extends, and likely will separate the fleet in a big way.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Amazing to see that the leaders have averaged 20 knots for the last 24 hours.The moderate winds of the first few days will have had an effect on the total elapsed time which could still be incredibly fast,but not the ultimate dash round the planet.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Interesting to see the Japanese entry ripped his mainsail badly a few days back, video on you tube showed his starting the repair, he had removed the sailcloth base from the sail locker for material & was preparing to patch with sikaflex as glue. If that works & gets him round the world it will be a pretty good boost for sika products!

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    ^ I saw that, if the prep work, sanding and cleaning is good enough and he can maintain some clamp pressure on the repair, it "might" hold, but i think its a big ask and i hope i am completely wrong.

    I see Linked Out has been slowly reducing the gap the last 48 hours, now only 71nm behind Thomson. Nice to see Charal left yesterday into a good weather system.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Doldrums in French apparently is"pot du noir" or "broyer noir". Pot of black or black crush.

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    Default Re: Vendee Globe Race Thread

    Woke up to find Hugo Boss in 3rd place this morning and only doing 5 knots. A quick look at his web page bought up this sad notice.

    "
    At approximately 19:00 UTC on Saturday 21st November, British Skipper Alex Thomson notified his team on shore of a possible structural issue onboard the HUGO BOSS boat.
    At the time, Thomson was located approximately 800 miles east of Rio de Janeiro in the South Atlantic ocean, and was 13 days into the Vendée Globe round-the-world yacht race.
    Thomson and his team, together with their appointed naval architects and structural engineers, are now working together to assess the extent of the structural issue and to determine a repair programme and timeline.
    Thomson is safe and well onboard, and in regular dialogue with the team. The Vendée Globe race organisation has been notified and is being kept well informed."

    He is still heading on a race course line and into the South, so i wonder on the extent of the damage. Only 4 hours since the alert, so things may change over today.

    Should you be able to break a boat that cost 6,000,000?

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