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Thread: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

  1. #1
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    Default Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    I've been away from the forum since completing my Vivier Morbic 11 stripplank but am back to ask about rigging for a Lillystone Phoenix III lapstrake I'm just about done with.

    For background, we started the build as a project with high school students through Wind & Oar (where I am a volunteer instructor) last Feb (2020) but had to shut it down in March after only 1 month of progress due to covid. The boat sat from March-Sept with no progress when another instructor at W&O and I decided to go ahead and finish it. So we've spent 2 months on it and are almost done, maybe 2-3 more weeks until ready for paint/varnish. I've been photo-documenting the build for others that come along here: Phoenix III Build Site.

    We're configuring the rig with a sprit and flying jib. I'm trying to figure out mounting for all cleats, etc, and trying to figure out the best way to run the jib halyard. Other posts on this boat, that I could find, are only rigged as a balanced lug. I looked at some of Lillystone's posts in a thread about a similar First Mate (thread here), but it doesn't address the jib. I'd like to see some other options, so if anyone can point me to other Phoenix III designs where I can see details on rigging I'd sure appreciate it. We could discuss here or you can PM me with information. thanks!
    Gary
    Last edited by garyb; 11-05-2020 at 12:20 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    For my jib I use a low friction ring on a loop of line in a hole at the top of the mast that runs athwartship. I tie the halyard onto the head of the jib with a bowline, up through the low friction ring, and then down to a belaying pin on the mast partner. The tack is attached to a bow fitting with a carabiner. The two sheets go around either side of the mast and through swiveling cam cleats at the locations Ross recommends in the plans.


    The jib isn't rigged, but this is the best picture I can find. You can just see the low friction ring on the forward side of the mast. I highly recommend the brail line too. I originally didn't rig one because it's not strictly necessary, but it makes life so much easier.





    My snotter is a piece of line with a loop in one end that I cow hitch around the mast. The tail goes through a low friction ring tied to the end of the sprit and back up to another low friction ring close to the cow hitch. Then down to a belaying pin on the mast partner which gives me a 2:1 advantage. Eventually I'm going to run it through the mast partner and back to a cleat on the centerboard case so I can adjust it more easily. Not a very good picture, but maybe you can get something out of it.





    I epoxied a wooden catch to my mast to hold the snotter, but it currently sticks out way too far and can jam the sail ties. This winter I'm going to cut it down until it just holds the snotter. You need to get this in the right place so you have room to pull the sprit up high enough. I recommend practicing with a rolling hitch around the mast first.





    My downhaul is currently the tail of the main halyard tied to another belaying pin, but I want to change that to a dedicated line that runs back to a cleat on the centerboard case.

    My sheet runs from a pulley tied around the end of the boom down to a pulley on a bridle, back up to the pulley, forward to a pulley tied with a cow hitch about mid boom, then down to a ratchet block mounted to the thwart. The sail's clew lashing keeps the pulley at the end from sliding around too much. I don't currently have a cleat handy to cleat it off, but that's an improvement I'm getting to.








    I made a website for my boat which has just about everything I've done: sailingmoga.com There's a fittings page that gives you sizes of everything I use. Let me know if you have any other questions about how I do things!
    Last edited by The Jeff; 11-05-2020 at 08:58 AM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    BEAUTIFULLY DOCUMENTED!

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Quote Originally Posted by swoody126 View Post
    BEAUTIFULLY DOCUMENTED!

    sw
    Agreed! Thanks for sharing this.

    Mike

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    To "The Jeff", thank you so much for the pictures, explanations and link to your website. This is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for and is very helpful. If you know of other sites that have Phoenix III pics, please send links for those too. I've seen the Flickr pics from people named Vincent and Jon M, but not much else.

    Mike, Steve, thank you for the kind feedback.
    Gary

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    By the way Jeff, I had never really noticed how far forward the sprit extends in front of mast, very similar to my other balanced lug rig. But I don't have a jib on that. I'm wondering, when you tack does the jib get hung up on the sprit when you come about?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Thanks, I'm glad my website is helpful!

    There's a few good shots of a Phoenix III with a standing lug and jib here: http://gisamateur.blogspot.com/2017/07/ and Ross has some shots of the sprit sail here: https://rosslillistonewoodenboat.blo...d-details.html

    The jib definitely can get caught on the end of the sprit. I've found if I let the jib back as I tack through the wind and then let the sheet go once I'm through I don't have a problem. The wind kind of folds the jib in half lengthways and it just slides across. It can be trickier in light air though because there's not enough pressure on the sail. In that case I can usually shake the sheet and it'll get unstuck.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Jeff, thanks for the additional info, even though it does confirm my fear of the jib getting stuck on sprit during a tack. I'm not so hot on the backwinding trick, as one loses a fair of speed through the turn, but can see how it helps get the jib around the sprit Not sure if it needs solving, but if it gets annoying enough I may experiment with a baby stay attached to the samson post, and run jib sheets outside it. Same principle as tacking a screacher/code0 flying from a bowsprit around a forestay, which I do on other (larger) boats. This little jib should be easy to pull around a baby stay, and it would keep it away from the sprit end.

    Anyone ever try this? Does go counter to my goal of minimixing set up time at the boat ramp..

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Getting the sail stuck really hasn't been a huge issue for me and I don't use the backwinding trick all the time. But I also don't know enough about performance to know if it should be an issue! The closer you can get the heel of the sprit to the mast the better, that's partially why I went with the low friction rings instead of pulleys.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Does anyone have an idea for a adjustable height for the snotter line for the sprit, besides using a rolling hitch on the mast? I'd like something that solidly stays where you put it, but that is also adjustable under way.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    I wrote this in reply to your PM, but thought it might be of interest to other people someday.

    There is one method of an adjustable snotter that I know of: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...53#post2026853 Basically the snotter is on its own halyard although I wonder if it could be attached to the mainsail's halyard to get rid of the extra line. You'd probably want Spectra or something non stretching. He had some good info on his website about Slider, but it seems to have disappeared. I found it on the internet archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20080915...ess/?page_id=2

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    We're not quite done with boat, and still need to paint too, but took a first crack at raising sails, since our daughter, the future owner of the boat, is in town.
    Some pics below and more here: http://brownz.com/phoenix-iii-construction-blog/

    We still need to solve the snotter height adjustment challenge, but presently the plan is to take the line from the heel of the sprit up to a block on the mast and down through a hole in the mast partner where it goes around a turning block (that is bolted to the bulkhead that's just forward of the mast) through some 3:1 purchase and ends at a camcleat mounted on the side of the centerboard case. Will be similarly rigged as the boom downhaul on our Morbic 11 - pic below)

    sails_up_no_people.jpg
    sails_up_2.jpg

    Morbic 11 boom downhaul pic - same as how we intend to rig boom downhaul and snotter line on this Phoenix III.
    downhaul.jpg
    Morbic pics here: http://brownz.com/sailing/morbic-11-...ction-journal/

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    It's looking really good! I've heard spiral lacing can bunch up, did you have any trouble?

    We still need to solve the snotter height adjustment challenge, but presently the plan is to take the line from the heel of the sprit up to a block on the mast and down through a hole in the mast partner where it goes around a turning block (that is bolted to the bulkhead that's just forward of the mast) through some 3:1 purchase and ends at a camcleat mounted on the side of the centerboard case.
    I was thinking about adjustable snotters and it reminded me of a mast traveler I've seen on lug rigs. See this post: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...66#post5328066

    You could attach the block to the hook and a halyard to the eye to make it adjustable, although you'd be limited by the sail lacing. It would certainly help with lowering the sail compared to the hook I have epoxied onto my mast.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jeff View Post
    It's looking really good! I've heard spiral lacing can bunch up, did you have any trouble?


    I was thinking about adjustable snotters and it reminded me of a mast traveler I've seen on lug rigs. See this post: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...66#post5328066

    You could attach the block to the hook and a halyard to the eye to make it adjustable, although you'd be limited by the sail lacing. It would certainly help with lowering the sail compared to the hook I have epoxied onto my mast.
    Thanks Jeff. I agree, the laced main is a pain and I won't use that sailing - it was just to get the sails up for fit and to check out some of the other rigging. I have a friend with a Vivier Ebihim with a Gunter rig, who described to me his version of homemade hoops made from parrel beads threaded on a line and connected into a loop with a shackle. Each loop is then connected to a main sail cringle(grommet). He used fairly big ~2" beads so they have enough mass to drop the sail fast when halyard is released. Previously, with spiral lacing, he had to attach a downhaul at head of sail to wrestle it down.

    This sounds like a decent idea, but still doesn't solve the snotter attach problem. Seems thumb cleats would get in the way of any hoop/loop approach.

    Interesting that you propose considering something like a mast traveler for a snotter attach point. Here's one I made for our Morbic. Perhaps one like it but with 2 loops instead of a loop and a hook.
    mast_traveler.jpg
    I'm not sure how this would work with a hoop/loop system for main sail attach and it would have to be positioned between the right hoops and would not be very adjustable, beyond movement between 2 adjacent hoops. I'm not sure how the mast traveler halyard would route (I guess outside the loops) and I can't see how it would support reefing (maybe with added pendant?). Will think more about this - thanks for bringing it up.

    We decided the solid mast is too heavy so I'm going to build a hollow mast. One idea we discussed is to put a track on the aft side of mast for the main sail, and another short track on the forward side of mast to manage a car with block attached as a snotter attach point (similar to a track on our Beneteau for symmetrical spinnaker pole height adjust). This would solve it, but still would like something simpler.

    We will add lazy jacks to support boom/main_sail/sprit in down position. This will make it easier to attach sail to hoops or track during setup, and keep everything tidy in cockpit when you need to drop everything in a hurry.

    Whatever solution, it needs to include:
    1. Mast that is light enough for my daughter to raise by herself
    2. Setup time from arriving at boat ramp with boat on trailer to mast raised and ready to launch in about 15 minutes
    3. Need to be able to drop all sails quickly in a big sudden blow
    4. Support reefing
    5. Adjustable for good sail shape

    Open to any ideas. I still have some time to figure it out, while I paint.

    thanks!

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Hi Gary- nice looking boat. I'm just down the road in Portland and have played around with rigging boats like this. I'd be happy to stop by and brainstorm from a respectful social distance if that is helpful.

    -Bruce
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Thanks Bruce! I'll PM you.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    I finished up the paint and varnish job, and a bunch of miscellaneous details so calling it done.. At least for today. :-) We're never really done with our boat anyway. I want to build a lighter mast with a better solution to the snotter rigging and reefing. But, in the meanwhile, here she is finished rev 1.

    Posting a few pics below, and the entire build blog is here: http://brownz.com/phoenix-iii-construction-blog/

    Phoenix_transom_front_view_done.jpg
    Phoenix_transom_view_done.jpg
    belay_pins.jpg

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Looking good! I really like those side benches. You're definitely right about boats never being finished... I'm working through a list a mile long for my First Mate. Looking forward to seeing some sailing pictures and hearing how the sprit rig works for you!

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Looks great! I have followed your blog over the last few weeks, it has been fun to watch you making such quick progress.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Thanks guys. I decided to jump on the hollow mast. Couldn't find Sitka in a 13-footer, so went for a tight, straight grained doug fir. $200 for a 1x12x14' - ouch! Got her glued up today. Will be interesting to see how the weight compares to the solid mast I've already built.
    hollow_mast_glueup.jpg
    http://brownz.com/phoenix-iii-construction-blog/
    Last edited by garyb; 01-14-2021 at 08:24 PM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    I'll be interested to see the weight difference. I made my mast out of yellow pine and calculated 13 pounds hollow and 16 pounds solid. It hardly seems worth the effort for 3 pounds, but I guess every little bit helps. I never did get around to weighing my mast to see how close I got.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jeff View Post
    I'll be interested to see the weight difference. I made my mast out of yellow pine and calculated 13 pounds hollow and 16 pounds solid. It hardly seems worth the effort for 3 pounds, but I guess every little bit helps. I never did get around to weighing my mast to see how close I got.
    Yes, will absolutely report back on the mast weight of solid vs. hollow. This will be a good comparison as the masts are for the same boat, and both made from straight-grain doug fir. I don't it partially for the experience and if the hollow-core mast breaks, we'll have a back-up. :-).

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Phoenix III in Oregon - rigging options

    Quote Originally Posted by garyb View Post
    Yes, will absolutely report back on the mast weight of solid vs. hollow. This will be a good comparison as the masts are for the same boat, and both made from straight-grain doug fir. I don't it partially for the experience and if the hollow-core mast breaks, we'll have a back-up. :-).
    The solid mast weighs 19.9 lbs and the 8-sided birdsmouth hollow mast (using 5/8" thick staves, before rounding) weighs 13.6 lbs, so a savings of about 20%. So, you were right on about a 3 lb savings. Was it worth it? This time is was, for the learning as now I know how to build a hollow mast of this technique. If I was the one raising the mast every time, I'd say the weight savings is moot. But, since it's my daughter's boat, I'm sure she'll appreciate any weight savings.

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