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Thread: Conic Projection

  1. #1
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    Default Conic Projection

    Dear members,

    Does any-one have a suggestion for a source of information about conic projection - the method of designing the forward bottom of a stem and keelson area, and for deciding the amount of round on the forward frames/moulds?

    I have John Teale's book on small boat design, and though he covers this, and though I understand each and every word he says, I cannot make it work for me. Tainternet searches turn up lots of complicated maths and cartography, nothing useful for a bodger like me.

    Thanks,

    Collin

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    FS Kinney's Skenes Elements 8th (1973) edition has a section on it. https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/B...srp1-_-title15

    A how it works picture.



    https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/p...n.24551/page-2
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    Thanks Peerie Maa, I'll be getting a copy shortly.

    Keep safe,

    Collin

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    Quote Originally Posted by CollinR View Post
    Thanks Peerie Maa, I'll be getting a copy shortly.

    Keep safe,

    Collin
    Are you designing from scratch or trying to loft an existing design?
    If it is a new project and you are comfortable working on a PC screen try Freeship
    https://sourceforge.net/projects/freeship/

    Lofting an existing design will require a lot of trial and error to find where the generator locus sits. So it may be easier to input the stem-keel and chines into Freeship anyway.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    So Nick, please expand... the distance of the locus from a fixed point on the hull denotes fineness or otherwise of the bow?

    Although I can imagine a drawn out mathematically (and therefore dimensionally) cone to be a reasonable entry and easier to build that an asymmetrical form, is all there is to it hydrodynamically? A rule of thumb to fall within the limits construction materials, build time and method habits?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    So Nick, please expand... the distance of the locus from a fixed point on the hull denotes fineness or otherwise of the bow?

    Although I can imagine a drawn out mathematically (and therefore dimensionally) cone to be a reasonable entry and easier to build that an asymmetrical form, is all there is to it hydrodynamically? A rule of thumb to fall within the limits construction materials, build time and method habits?
    First off it is not a true cone with a circular base. The conic part is that the straight line generators all sweep around a common locus that would be the a[ex of the surface, or can be parallel, and sweep along the CL profile or the chine. On a true cone, the keel profile would be part of a parabolic or hyperbolic curve.
    The fullness or fineness is affected by the position of the locus. The farther forward/lower, the finer the bow. The further to the side/higher, the lower the dead rise of the bottom and forefoot. Obviously he keel/stem profile has a profound effect.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    developable-surface-boat-designs.blogspot.com

    It is a subject I have been playing with for years.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    Nick's How it Works picture doesn't quite give the whole story for me, nor does Skene. As I was initially a little confused, I decided to mark up the diagram to show how to use the cone to get the actual offsets. The green lines represent one particular mold or frame. The solid blue are the two views of a line on the cone. From these you can lift off the offsets (red). I hope this helps others understand the process as it did me. What is not clear to me is how one chooses the vertex of the cone. It appears that the further forward and higher the position, the softer the sections. And, the further down and out from the center line the harder (straighter) they are. I assume choosing the optimal position is a matter of experience (and experiment).


    conic development (1).jpg
    Last edited by akitchen; 11-21-2020 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Diagram unclear, added to description.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    Peerie Maa, this is the continuing development of a "new" design ("new" as in about ten years from conception!). I tried Freeship, but I will stick to pencil and paper, I can "see" things more easily.

    W Grabow, despite the note about Freeship, above, I'll have a look.

    aKitchen, you seem to have been in the same place as me, I understand theoretically what I'm supposed to do, but so far when I try to draw it, it all goes to nonsense. Thanks for your additional information, I'll keep trying with more hope of success.

    All - keep safe and thanks.

    Collin

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    Quote Originally Posted by CollinR View Post
    Peerie Maa, this is the continuing development of a "new" design ("new" as in about ten years from conception!). I tried Freeship, but I will stick to pencil and paper, I can "see" things more easily.


    Collin
    Freeship really is better, easier, than paper and pencil.

    • It is less wasteful of your time when iterating the design. You do not need to start over from a blank sheet of paper.
    • You can rotate the model on the screen to see it from any direction.
    • It has routines that prove the developability of the panels as well as visualising their curvature.
    • It will calculate displacement and stability.
    • It will output the shape of the developed panels.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Freeship really is better, easier, than paper and pencil.

    • It is less wasteful of your time when iterating the design. You do not need to start over from a blank sheet of paper.
    • You can rotate the model on the screen to see it from any direction.
    • It has routines that prove the developability of the panels as well as visualising their curvature.
    • It will calculate displacement and stability.
    • It will output the shape of the developed panels.
    Nick,

    I realize that what you say is true. But I'm so old fashioned, I just love the visceral feel of drawing lines with pencil and paper. Funny, because in a previous life I taught computer science.

    Andrew

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    Quote Originally Posted by akitchen View Post
    Nick,

    I realize that what you say is true. But I'm so old fashioned, I just love the visceral feel of drawing lines with pencil and paper. Funny, because in a previous life I taught computer science.

    Andrew
    Fairy Nuff. Can I suggest that you stick with round bottoms, and do not go down the hard chine conic projection route?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Fairy Nuff. Can I suggest that you stick with round bottoms, and do not go down the hard chine conic projection route?
    That's my plan. Next project is Doug Hylan's "Siri', and no designing required on my part.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    My copy of the eighth edition of "Skene" finally arrived today (delayed due to Covid, presumably), what a disappointment! Very little information on conic projection, and the notes on the drawing are barely legible, as well as irrelevant as to the "How do you do it?" question.
    On the other hand, there's loads of other stuff of interest, some of which is likely to be directly relevant to my project.
    I've been thinking about this some more, and I'm going to try to get the pen and paper method again with what I've now got in my head, and if it works, I'll post up a "How to" guide here in the next few days.

    Dwedais"Gwirion", nid "Twp"

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Conic Projection

    You might also look up the work of Harry Schoell, and his delta-conic and duo-delta-conic hull forms.

    Here's a good article from our host's sister pub:

    http://trojanboat.com/wp-content/upl...ll-article.pdf


    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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