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Thread: Van Morrison disappoints

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So the only solid answers are to blindly support all lockdowns or blindly oppose all lockdowns?
    Blindly? Maybe you could open your eyes? lol
    Conservatives. SMH

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by __floater__ View Post
    Blindly? Maybe you could open your eyes? lol
    Conservatives. SMH
    Ok, suit yourself. Remove the word blindly (it is rather unnecessary), the only acceptable answer is to support all lockdowns?

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Yes.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Ok, suit yourself. Remove the word blindly (it is rather unnecessary), the only acceptable answer is to support all lockdowns?
    At this juncture, I'm afraid it is. Why? Because people are too stupid or too selfish to do it on their own. Sad, but true.

    If people gave a crap, we wouldn't need lockdowns.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    I always thought Van Morrison's spirituality was rather eclectic than conservative christian and it's a long bow to draw that his views on covid lockdown laws etc are part and parcel of a conservative christian mindset. By and large I love his music and songwriting, his use of repetition and the emotional content of the music and vocal delivery. I have also always found songs on many albums that i would prefer to bypass, .....easily done in this digital age. He has an opinion with respect to covid that I don't agree with......no big deal in my opinion.
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    At this juncture, I'm afraid it is. Why? Because people are too stupid or too selfish to do it on their own. Sad, but true.

    If people gave a crap, we wouldn't need lockdowns.
    So, at this point, we are no longer entitled to think, or to have open and honest information? Does this just pertain to covid issues, or does it extent to other/all political issues? Watching this past election and the arguments made by many on both sides, it seems to me it does.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So, at this point, we are no longer entitled to think, or to have open and honest information? Does this just pertain to covid issues, or does it extent to other/all political issues? Watching this past election and the arguments made by many on both sides, it seems to me it does.
    I take your point, but my advice is:
    - Know what you don't know. Be willing to recognize ignorance. Some things I am very smart on. Some things not.
    - Listen to and respect the advice of those who have bona fides ("good faith") competency in very specialized fields, with openness and honesty about basis for conclusions, and willingness to change view with new data.
    - Don't be defiant just for defiance sake.
    - Weigh carefully the cost of inconvenience (wearing a cloth mask) versus the cost of infection to you or others of a disease with average mortality upon infection of 5%.

    Mathematicians and scientists can often draw conclusions by looking at extremes; Zero and infinity. Let's do that:

    Zero steps to mitigate the virus: Mass infection, insufficient hospital space to care for people, no business closings, but boy howdy, in the long term, customers are going to DROP. Millions of deaths, and horrible ones. So that's out.

    Full lockdown for a YEAR: Well, infection is quelled, but everything grinds to a halt. That's no good. But what would people do if locked down for a year? They would say, "OK, we need to open back up. What do we need to do that? Hmm... everybody wears masks in public, essential services open, shield people as much as possible where needed."

    NOW. Let's say instead, you do all of that right from the start? THEN, you don't have a massive lockdown, AND, you quell the virus. You just need ALL PEOPLE to accept the MINOR INCONVENIENCE of WEARING A MASK and NOT FILLING BARS AND RESTAURANTS.

    This virus would have been stomped to a low level if people had just done the above. How do I KNOW? Because in countries that did the above, they're doing fine, infection levels plummeted and never rose again, or stayed contained at low levels. And why didn't a lot of people in the USA not do that? Because Trump said not to. That's the long and short of it.

    I'd like to be with family and friends for Thanksgiving. But this is one Thanksgiving. ONE. Not last holiday, and not next. One. ONE. That's a relatively small inconvenience to save a lot of people. I'm doing "MY PART" in this war.

    Discuss.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So, at this point, we are no longer entitled to think, or to have open and honest information? Does this just pertain to covid issues, or does it extent to other/all political issues? Watching this past election and the arguments made by many on both sides, it seems to me it does.
    The boogyman is under your bed and he's coming for your freedom by asking you to help save American lives.
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    If conservatives heard one Muslim was in America and was picking off Americans one at a time, they'd be grunting, dressed in flags, cleaning their guns. yelling FREEDOM and hunting for them day and night until they were found and beaten. To hell with work, family, the beach and holidays...this is war om America!
    But a virus kills HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Americans?
    I'm not helping.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Both Morrison and Clapton are doing two things that deserve comment.

    First, they are discouraging the behavior that saves lives (masks, distancing, and isolation).

    Second, they are politicizing correct behavior and removing it from the real of science and medicine.

    Take your pick. Both are repugnant. Both are ill-informed. And peb is simply wrong.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    ^ Clapton too? That's a shame. He seemed less crazy.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    I'm conflicted now. What do I do with all of their music I have? Love their music - don't love their politics.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    The "Brown Eyed Girl" was his 12 year old neighbour.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Save live music? Oh, go bite a rolling donut!

    You mean save those enormous ticket prices for your wallet.

    If anything, the pandemic could be THE THING that saves live music. Local live music, that is, not flown around the globe live music.
    I mean, in localized populations with virus control, outdoor live concerts would be imminently possible, if folks needn’t travel about outside the bubbles or what have you...

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    I think there is a money-making opportunity in selling masks with these moron's names printed across them.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    So easy to say we don't need restaurants, or bars, of live music, or cruise ships, or movie theaters, museums, plays, etc. Minor inconveniences. As we all work from home and are not waiting for hours inline for food from a good bank. Just leave it all to epidemiologists , who also draw their nice salary from the luxury of their home office.

    Are some lockdowns necessary? Yes. Are these science decisions with a definitive answer provided by science? No. They are policy decisions, in a democracy, this implies politics.

    On one hand, we are not to criticize the science about what they got wrong the last 9 months, as that's the way science works. On the other hand, , it's all science, public policy should be turned over to people with very narrow fields of expertise fumbling their way through something no one has experience in.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So easy to say we don't need restaurants, or bars, of live music, or cruise ships, or movie theaters, museums, plays, etc.
    What’s really easy is to pretend we need those than do everything you can to make sure they go under. Which is what you’ve done.

    9 months in and you still refuse to accept the fact​ that when covid gets bad, those businesses do bad. It’s an article of idiotic faith amongst conservatives that nothing needs to be done. Just empty posturing as the deaths pile up and the business failures pile up.

    eesh, we are now weeks from a vaccine and it’s “full speed ahead!”
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 11-28-2020 at 11:19 AM.

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    Clapton has been outed as a bigot in the past. Now this.

    Of course, he grew up thinking his mother was his sister...

    I am not sure it is greed, as much as feeding their egos. E.g: Look at us helping the poor, starving musicians.

    * I realize many musicians are suffering with venues closed or limited.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Jeesh.. This is like 3 times - admittedly over 4 years, but still! - I agree with Peb (sorta, qualifications apply 0-: ).

    Lockdown.. Funny thing here in the U.S. of A... where the fortunate few - with their healthy stock portfolios and safe 'work from home' jobs can decry the 'essential workers' (essential jobs, actually, the workers are ever more disposable) and artists.. yes, artists.. people the world needs - and if you doubt this, disconnect your netflix/spotify/what-the-f-ever for a week and get back to me, 'k? That music didn't & won't happen in a vacuum - and while you enjoy your 'home delivery' of 'essentials', try to remember the workers doing the dirty work for you make far less money than you - while doing _all_ your dirty work. Melville would have shaken his head over the increasing aptness of his “Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well- warmed, and well-fed.”

    But Lockdown! & Starve/Lose Everything! - but hey, Bezos has added billions while workers lost jobs.. and 'job provided health care'.. just when they needed them most. And y'all have your safe jobs/dividends/stocks, so it's all ok.

    I don't want to hear another g'd' thing about lockdown! until I hear 'here is how we help the poor, the homeless, the 'essential workers', the 'fell thru the cracks' people..'.

    Again, Jeesh - Imma stop now before I say what I really think & get banded.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    Jeesh.. This is like 3 times - admittedly over 4 years, but still! - I agree with Peb (sorta, qualifications apply 0-: ).

    Lockdown.. Funny thing here in the U.S. of A... where the fortunate few - with their healthy stock portfolios and safe 'work from home' jobs can decry the 'essential workers' (essential jobs, actually, the workers are ever more disposable) and artists.. yes, artists.. people the world needs - and if you doubt this, disconnect your netflix/spotify/what-the-f-ever for a week and get back to me, 'k? That music didn't & won't happen in a vacuum - and while you enjoy your 'home delivery' of 'essentials', try to remember the workers doing the dirty work for you make far less money than you - while doing _all_ your dirty work. Melville would have shaken his head over the increasing aptness of his “Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well- warmed, and well-fed.”

    But Lockdown! & Starve/Lose Everything! - but hey, Bezos has added billions while workers lost jobs.. and 'job provided health care'.. just when they needed them most. And y'all have your safe jobs/dividends/stocks, so it's all ok.

    I don't want to hear another g'd' thing about lockdown! until I hear 'here is how we help the poor, the homeless, the 'essential workers', the 'fell thru the cracks' people..'.

    Again, Jeesh - Imma stop now before I say what I really think & get banded.

    We?!

    Lost my job. Well, the ability to do the odd jobs and coaching I do for regular money. Funny you should mention artists, too, as COVID closed the gallery I was supposed to have a show in...

    My wife has been working crazy to keep employees employed and paid, even thought they’re idle. Watching a person watch a business they built die is hard.

    We’ve taken in one person already, and scrape what we can to help three others.

    I am literally selling fruit off a table in the front yard.

    Because, we lost everything paying for medical care years ago, and simply put, can’t afford for either of us to be hospitalized, at all, but ain’t got squat to fall back on.

    But, mouths need food, rent needs payed, lights and all that jazz...

    Which, I’ve allowed before as I don’t fit here.
    Last edited by amish rob; 11-28-2020 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Removed my addendum.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Yeah, Amish.. This country is full of 'gig workers'.. it intentionally made them - put all the pressure on workers and make them fight like rats for scraps to survive.. and comes covid, 'sorry suckas, I've got mine!'.. Oh, and stay home! - even if that's (for some lucky few, parked) under a bridge slowly dying..

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    I don’t blame anyone. It is.

    Still, I ain’t standing on no ivory tower flinging poop with a sliver spoon.

    Aside from that, I have actual skin in the political game this year.

    I think I can opine. Nobody cares anyway.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So easy to say we don't need restaurants, or bars, of live music, or cruise ships, or movie theaters, museums, plays, etc. Minor inconveniences. As we all work from home and are not waiting for hours inline for food from a good bank. Just leave it all to epidemiologists , who also draw their nice salary from the luxury of their home office.

    Are some lockdowns necessary? Yes. Are these science decisions with a definitive answer provided by science? No. They are policy decisions, in a democracy, this implies politics.

    On one hand, we are not to criticize the science about what they got wrong the last 9 months, as that's the way science works. On the other hand, , it's all science, public policy should be turned over to people with very narrow fields of expertise fumbling their way through something no one has experience in.
    Once again, I find myself having to defend a moderate position, which usually satisfies absolutely NO one, since today's world is constituted with extremists, left, right, and every other way (except center).

    First, it would be foolish to say that all scientists always get it right... but we can be reasonably sure that if a non-scientist takes a position, then the chances of him/her actually getting it right are purely statistical. In the course of this pandemic, the early stages were indeed marked with a huge amount of uncertainty... among scientists... and their earliest prognostications deserved to be taken with a grain of salt...

    ...but NOT to the extent of ignoring the potential of a pandemic. History SHOULD have taught us that it would always be wiser to err on the side of excessive caution, since doing so harms no one, while underestimating the potential calamity of a pandemic hurts many... and kills many. History showed this to us in the 1918 'Spanish Flu' pandemic, where, just like 100 years later, there were 'non-scientists' who insisted that taking extreme precautions was unnecessary. The result?

    Before COVID-19, the most severe pandemic in recent history was the 1918 influenza virus, often called “the Spanish Flu.” The virus infected roughly 500 million people—one-third of the world’s population—and caused 50 million deaths worldwide (double the number of deaths in World War I). In the United States, a quarter of the population caught the virus, 675,000 died, and life expectancy dropped by 12 years. With no vaccine to protect against the virus, people were urged to isolate, quarantine, practice good personal hygiene, and limit social interaction.

    Until February 2020, the 1918 epidemic was largely overlooked in the teaching of American history, despite the ample documentation at the National Archives and elsewhere of the disease and its devastation. The 100-year-old pictures from 1918 that just months ago seemed quaint and dated now seem oddly prescient. We make these records more widely available in hopes that they contain lessons about what to expect over the coming months and ideas about ways to avoid a repeat and prepare for what may follow.
    It would be impossible to say how many of the 675,000 Americans who died in that pandemic might have been saved, had there not have been widespread resistance to the measures that public health experts were advocating.

    It is similarly impossible to say how many of the over 250,000 Americans who have died so far in THIS pandemic might have been saved... if it weren't for the fact that nearly half the population apparently doesn't take this seriously... and if it weren't for the fact that right wing politicians have been encouraging people to ignore the warnings of the true experts in this field.

    This is why Trump trusts a radiologist, with NO epidemiological experience or training, more than the nation's leading epidemiologist.

    Now there is an estimate that over 420,000 Americans will have died, by the time inauguration takes place on January 20th, 2021.

    So, is it reasonable to argue that there are some areas of the country with comparatively low infection rates, for which things like mask and lockdown orders ought to be 'unnecessary'? The exact same thing might have been said about areas of the country where the virus is absolutely raging NOW.... at one time, it wasn't... but it changed.

    About the only thing that can be said about this politically-inspired resistance to the virus threat is this: as has been shown by the behavior of Trump, his family, and his staff and nearby acolytes, diminishing the threat brings it's own reward: contracting the virus. As it happens, none of the luminaries in this group died, as a result... but that was purely luck. Had a Trump family member died, does anyone suppose that Trump's rhetoric would have changed?

    My family and I are indeed taking extreme precautions. Necessary? I don't know. I merely know the potential consequences of NOT doing it.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    It would be safer to say all scientists get it right than say they are all full of $hit.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    If you’re disappointed by Van Morrison you’d be offended by Morrissey.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...w-jimmy-fallon

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    Jeesh.. This is like 3 times - admittedly over 4 years, but still! - I agree with Peb (sorta, qualifications apply 0-: ).

    Lockdown.. Funny thing here in the U.S. of A... where the fortunate few - with their healthy stock portfolios and safe 'work from home' jobs can decry the 'essential workers' (essential jobs, actually, the workers are ever more disposable) and artists.. yes, artists.. people the world needs - and if you doubt this, disconnect your netflix/spotify/what-the-f-ever for a week and get back to me, 'k? That music didn't & won't happen in a vacuum - and while you enjoy your 'home delivery' of 'essentials', try to remember the workers doing the dirty work for you make far less money than you - while doing _all_ your dirty work. Melville would have shaken his head over the increasing aptness of his “Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well- warmed, and well-fed.”

    But Lockdown! & Starve/Lose Everything! - but hey, Bezos has added billions while workers lost jobs.. and 'job provided health care'.. just when they needed them most. And y'all have your safe jobs/dividends/stocks, so it's all ok.

    I don't want to hear another g'd' thing about lockdown! until I hear 'here is how we help the poor, the homeless, the 'essential workers', the 'fell thru the cracks' people..'.

    Again, Jeesh - Imma stop now before I say what I really think & get banded.
    Uh, that’s why you pay people to stay home. It takes a special kind of ivory tower to not know waiters don’t get paid unless there are customers.

    All this crap whining doesn’t answer the question - how do you stay open? After 9 months I’m not giving the benefit of the doubt. If you can’t answer that - and peb won’t - you aren’t arguing in goood faith. Whining about concerts, movie theaters, restaurants being “shut down” without answering how the stay in business is not a serious position. Example: movie theatres. Hard to run a theatre chain without new run films. Hard to have new run films if the studio isn’t releasing them, and they aren’t releasing them because they are worried people won’t go AND because they had to stop production of new films in part because of insurance issues. Until that gets resolved “open up” sounds like a toddler whine.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    I don’t blame anyone. It is.

    Still, I ain’t standing on no ivory tower flinging poop with a sliver spoon.

    Aside from that, I have actual skin in the political game this year.

    I think I can opine. Nobody cares anyway.
    This isn't about any of the gig workers, the essential workers, complaining.. they seldom do and aren't listened to anyway - in the days of BLM/Defund the Police, Biden/Hariss? Yeah. It's about the privileged few upset those others aren't just going along with their selfish needs.. and calling those suffering, the selfish. Just so much more gaslighting.

    And Hugh.. where's the help for the poor? Rep Rashida Tlaib offered a working version of Yang's UBI.. but Pelosi signed on at least twice to $6+ trillion for the ATFW. No, you show me how to help the poor, or y'all are the ones 'just whining'.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    Jeesh.. This is like 3 times - admittedly over 4 years, but still! - I agree with Peb (sorta, qualifications apply 0-: ).

    Lockdown.. Funny thing here in the U.S. of A... where the fortunate few - with their healthy stock portfolios and safe 'work from home' jobs can decry the 'essential workers' (essential jobs, actually, the workers are ever more disposable) and artists.. yes, artists.. people the world needs - and if you doubt this, disconnect your netflix/spotify/what-the-f-ever for a week and get back to me, 'k? That music didn't & won't happen in a vacuum - and while you enjoy your 'home delivery' of 'essentials', try to remember the workers doing the dirty work for you make far less money than you - while doing _all_ your dirty work. Melville would have shaken his head over the increasing aptness of his “Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well- warmed, and well-fed.”

    But Lockdown! & Starve/Lose Everything! - but hey, Bezos has added billions while workers lost jobs.. and 'job provided health care'.. just when they needed them most. And y'all have your safe jobs/dividends/stocks, so it's all ok.

    I don't want to hear another g'd' thing about lockdown! until I hear 'here is how we help the poor, the homeless, the 'essential workers', the 'fell thru the cracks' people..'.

    Again, Jeesh - Imma stop now before I say what I really think & get banded.
    Yeah, but if you'd done lockdown once, and done it properly with robust border control/quarantine measures - well, you could have been like us, essentially free of the damn thing in a few short weeks and back to business as usual - short term pain for long term gain that benefits everybody. Instead, the "my rights/freedoms" bs has got in the way. That's all very well and good as long as you're happy to live with the ongoing social and economic consequences.

    Pete

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Exactly.
    Rick

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Agreed, Pete.. But in accord with what Reich said, done properly would be money for the people, leave business to take the zero interest loans offered. Instead, while the ATFW were given trillions, (some) workers essentially got $50/ week for 6 months.. and that wouldn't support anybody.

    America is flat out hateful to all the holders of those essential jobs.

    and this is way more than 'My rights, Freedom!'.. that's what the media wants us to hear. It's really "how the hell can I/we/people survive with out working? Gov is only bailing the rich.". That doesn't make conflict, tho, so it's gotta go.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Yes, that's the real issue. Proper lockdown works but it's only viable in communities that care about each other, all of each other.
    Rick

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Lost my job. Well, the ability to do the odd jobs and coaching I do for regular money. Funny you should mention artists, too, as COVID closed the gallery I was supposed to have a show in...
    It seems like many jobs are back with appropriate precautions (plexiglass separations and such) and I wonder what it would be like if we had jumped to those solutions more quickly. I'd do more carry out at restaurants if more places did it well and safely. I've been surprised that so many people have lost their jobs when it seems that adaptation rather than shut down is the answer. But you do seem to have taken it on the chin and I am sorry to hear that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    It seems like many jobs are back with appropriate precautions (plexiglass separations and such) and I wonder what it would be like if we had jumped to those solutions more quickly. I'd do more carry out at restaurants if more places did it well and safely. I've been surprised that so many people have lost their jobs when it seems that adaptation rather than shut down is the answer. But you do seem to have taken it on the chin and I am sorry to hear that.

    Any plan would have been better than a lying a-hole pretending nothing was wrong.

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    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Yeah, but if you'd done lockdown once, and done it properly with robust border control/quarantine measures - well, you could have been like us, essentially free of the damn thing in a few short weeks and back to business as usual - short term pain for long term gain that benefits everybody. Instead, the "my rights/freedoms" bs has got in the way. That's all very well and good as long as you're happy to live with the ongoing social and economic consequences.

    Pete
    Exactly.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    21,488

    Default Re: Van Morrison disappoints

    I saw him live a couple of times 30 years ago. He came over as a horrible person. I deliberately chose to never see him again.
    I've read stuff about him since. He expected his wife to run a traditional Irish household, he thinks his only peer is Dylan, he expects to eclipse Yeats as a poet.

    I still like his music

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