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Thread: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

  1. #1
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    Default Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    I'm pleased to introduce the newest member of the fleet, Reliance:

    20200920_140955.jpg

    I understand she is the fifth of approx. 22 of these boats produced by the Concordia Company. This one was built in 1968, when the designer, Pete Culler, worked at Concordia.

    She has a large hole where her keel and stem should meet.

    20201023_214408.jpg
    20200927_181516.jpg
    20201026_175234 (1).jpg

    I've gained a bit of access now and can see that the rot is isolated to just beyond where the previous owner had cut it back. I have 2 decisions to make in the near future.

    1. Laminate a new stem/forefoot/keel in place, OR scarf in larger timbers in the original configuration.
    2. Related: What specie of wood to use? I believe the rotten bits are white oak. I'm in Seattle. What would you use?

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts on the subject. I'll try to keep the repairs updated here periodically. I hope to be back in sailing shape by Spring.
    Last edited by lukes; 10-27-2020 at 01:34 PM. Reason: clarity

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    That's a nice project! I wish you well with the repair work.
    I'd stick with white oak if you can get it.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    There were two Concordia Sloop boats in Seattle. One was owned by Dick Wagner at his Old Boathouse boat livery. I believe it became part of the fleet at the Center for Wooden Boats on Lake Union. The other was owned by the late Land Washburn, owner of the Wooden Boat Shop on Boat Street in Seattle. I painted that boat for Land sometime in the 70s. They are wonderful boats, but somewhat heavy and ponderous. As such, they are not well suited for the inland lakes. Better suited for the Sound...with a bit of a blow.

    Definitely repair with the wood with which it was built. White oak should be easy to get. It is disheartening to see so many people repairing boats with splooge.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    My understanding is that this boat was built for Robert Kaufman in 1968, and he sailed it on Long Island Sound for many years. It was brought to Seattle by his daughter, who passed it to the Center for Wooden Boats. I don't know if it ever got out of their warehouse and into the livery though. It ended up in Idaho for a while after that, before returning to Pt. Hadlock. A couple more owners up that way, and here we are.

    If anyone knows anything else, or thinks I've got something wrong, please let me know. I'm aware of Feather, who is down south if I'm not mistaken. I'd love to know about any others in the area that are still sailing.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Good bones on which to base a restoration.It might take a little longer than you expect,but should be a fine vessel when finished.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by lukes View Post
    My understanding is that this boat was built for Robert Kaufman in 1968, and he sailed it on Long Island Sound for many years. It was brought to Seattle by his daughter, who passed it to the Center for Wooden Boats. I don't know if it ever got out of their warehouse and into the livery though. It ended up in Idaho for a while after that, before returning to Pt. Hadlock. A couple more owners up that way, and here we are.

    If anyone knows anything else, or thinks I've got something wrong, please let me know. I'm aware of Feather, who is down south if I'm not mistaken. I'd love to know about any others in the area that are still sailing.
    It seems likely that some of these boats are the same. All of this was almost fifty years ago! HOW DID THIS HAPPEN!!
    Can't remember the name of Land's boat. It might be the Wagner boat remains in CWB storage since it would be a slug on Lake Union...It is a wonderful and handsome boat, but Lake Union is not appropriate.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Neat boat Luke. Not to derail the thread, but Pat - do you remember the little fishing motor boat that Land owned? It was maybe 25' long I think, with a little cuddy cabin, painted gray. The name of it is buried in my brain somewhere but I just can't come up with it. Pudgy or Pug or something like that maybe? Anyway I always liked it and wonder what ever happened to it. I figured you would know if anyone would.

    I never saw Land's Concordia Sloop but I went sailing on his Friendship sloop a few times. At least I think it was his. As you say, all this was some 40+ years ago now so the recollection is fuzzy.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Neat boat Luke. Not to derail the thread, but Pat - do you remember the little fishing motor boat that Land owned? It was maybe 25' long I think, with a little cuddy cabin, painted gray. The name of it is buried in my brain somewhere but I just can't come up with it. Pudgy or Pug or something like that maybe? Anyway I always liked it and wonder what ever happened to it. I figured you would know if anyone would.

    I never saw Land's Concordia Sloop but I went sailing on his Friendship sloop a few times. At least I think it was his. As you say, all this was some 40+ years ago now so the recollection is fuzzy.
    The name of his Friendship was Clara...his wife's name. The fishing boat was cute...I remember going on a trip out in Lake Washington with Land and his two kids...son sitting on my lap. He works for Bill now.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    The name of his Friendship was Clara...his wife's name. The fishing boat was cute...I remember going on a trip out in Lake Washington with Land and his two kids...son sitting on my lap. He works for Bill now.
    Clara! Yes, I do remember that now. Still can't remember the fishing boat though. Ah well.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Clara! Yes, I do remember that now. Still can't remember the fishing boat though. Ah well.
    It might bubble up.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    If these threads aren't for drifting Chris, I'm not sure what the point is... I bet the Seattle waterfront was a whole lot of fun back in the day. I'm more than a little envious you guys got to be here for that.

    Back on topic: I think I've found part of the cause of the rot. The forward most 5 frames on this boat have no floors, and are not let into the keel. There is 1 fastener through the tapered end of each frame, and beyond that, the only thing holding them in place is the garboard. Over the years, all of these frames have moved down, and away from the keel, leaving a perfect water trap behind the garboard, exactly where the rot is centered.

    20201027_195512.jpg

    Given the shape of the keel, and how far back the rot goes in the rabbet, I plan to cut the scarf in the opposite direction from what I was previously thinking, and I'll keep the entire top portion of the keel. I will also install floors on some or all of the frames to maintain shape, and prevent this failure from repeating. This should also give me an excellent guide for fine tuning the new rabbet when the new keel is in.

    20201027_201024.jpg

    Now I just need to make a trip to the lumber store to see what I can get in the dimensions I need. I'll aim for White Oak, but experience tells me Sapele might be my only affordable choice in the bigger dimensions.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by lukes View Post

    Now I just need to make a trip to the lumber store to see what I can get in the dimensions I need. I'll aim for White Oak, but experience tells me Sapele might be my only affordable choice in the bigger dimensions.
    "lumber store"? Affordable choice?
    This boat was designed by Pete Culler. Before you go to redesigning it you should get the advice of an expert. I would recommend Erick Hvalsoe. You have a valuable boat; I would hate to see it destroyed.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    I came here to get the advice of all the experts... Though Erick is always welcome to swing by the shop, as are you Pat if you would like to come around. I've yet to make Erick's acquaintance, but have long admired his boats. Before this opportunity arose, a new build of his was high on my list of things to do this winter.

    lumber store = crosscut and/or edensaw. I'm not going to slap in some questionable piece of home depot lumber. If you know of another source of good wood in the area, I'm all ears.

    The white oak is well rotted, and while I will probably will replace like for like, I can't help but wonder if the next 50 years would be better served with a more rot resistant timber? If I could get black locust in that dimension, I would use it in a heartbeat.

    I think one could argue that I've taken possession of a boat that had been destroyed, and perhaps I can make it valuable again. I suppose time will tell. But I can assure you that I'd hate to see it destroyed as much as you would.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by lukes View Post
    I came here to get the advice of all the experts... Though Erick is always welcome to swing by the shop, as are you Pat if you would like to come around. I've yet to make Erick's acquaintance, but have long admired his boats. Before this opportunity arose, a new build of his was high on my list of things to do this winter.

    lumber store = crosscut and/or edensaw. I'm not going to slap in some questionable piece of home depot lumber. If you know of another source of good wood in the area, I'm all ears.

    The white oak is well rotted, and while I will probably will replace like for like, I can't help but wonder if the next 50 years would be better served with a more rot resistant timber? If I could get black locust in that dimension, I would use it in a heartbeat.

    I think one could argue that I've taken possession of a boat that had been destroyed, and perhaps I can make it valuable again. I suppose time will tell. But I can assure you that I'd hate to see it destroyed as much as you would.
    What worries me is that you seem anxious to redesign the boat.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    By adding floor timbers where there were none? I suspect if Capt. Pete saw the state of the boat, he'd agree. Worst case, it's belt and suspenders and adding weight to boat that needs a bit of ballast...

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by lukes View Post
    By adding floor timbers where there were none? I suspect if Capt. Pete saw the state of the boat, he'd agree. Worst case, it's belt and suspenders and adding weight to boat that needs a bit of ballast...
    How many other major restorations have you done. Just curious.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Fewer than you I would imagine.

    I can see clearly how this boat failed structurally, and have proposed what seems like a logical solution to the problem. This seems to have you thinking I'm redesigning the boat and at risk of destroying it. If I'm missing something about how adding structure forward to prevent the garboards from peeling away from the keel again will negatively affect something else, please do let me know.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Pete Culler designed this boat; I would be leery of changing his design.
    Last edited by pcford; 10-29-2020 at 03:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    One problem I see here is that Pete's plans have no construction drawings. We don't know what he specified for floor dimensions or their locations. All we can do is look at other models of the same boat, which are rare. Maybe your boat was modified and lost some pieces along the way, maybe not.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by David McCollum View Post
    One problem I see here is that Pete's plans have no construction drawings. We don't know what he specified for floor dimensions or their locations. All we can do is look at other models of the same boat, which are rare. Maybe your boat was modified and lost some pieces along the way, maybe not.
    I believe the Center for Wooden Boats has a Concordia sloop. Apparently this owner has decided to redesign the boat. He needs an expert to look at the boat. I restored wooden boats for something like forty years. Unless the boat was a home job, one has to trust in the original designer.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    David, the plans do lack details, but as this boat was likely built by Pete himself, I think we can assume it is as he intended. I see you're in CT. Do you happen to know when or if the folks at Mystic will be back to work? I believe they have a file on this boat from the original build, and I'd love to see what's in it, but so far no replies to emails. The plans department is up and running though.

    pcford, great news! The frame pairs are staggered fore and aft just enough and the frame ends appear to be in good enough shape that I might not put floors in after all. It looks like removing the wasted fastener and upsizing will do the trick. If any of us are around in 50 years, we can find out if that's a mistake or not. If you have access to another of these boats, I would look at getting a template of the forefoot. I'm sure a fair curve will be just fine, but if I had the chance to lift it off another boat, I would.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Quote Originally Posted by lukes View Post
    David, the plans do lack details, but as this boat was likely built by Pete himself, I think we can assume it is as he intended. I see you're in CT. Do you happen to know when or if the folks at Mystic will be back to work? I believe they have a file on this boat from the original build, and I'd love to see what's in it, but so far no replies to emails. The plans department is up and running though.

    pcford, great news! The frame pairs are staggered fore and aft just enough and the frame ends appear to be in good enough shape that I might not put floors in after all. It looks like removing the wasted fastener and upsizing will do the trick. If any of us are around in 50 years, we can find out if that's a mistake or not. If you have access to another of these boats, I would look at getting a template of the forefoot. I'm sure a fair curve will be just fine, but if I had the chance to lift it off another boat, I would.
    Great. Take it easy and be careful.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    [QUOTE=lukes;6307596]David, the plans do lack details, but as this boat was likely built by Pete himself, I think we can assume it is as he intended. I see you're in CT. Do you happen to know when or if the folks at Mystic will be back to work? I believe they have a file on this boat from the original build, and I'd love to see what's in it, but so far no replies to emails. The plans department is up and running though.

    I don't know if the folks at Mystic are back at work. All I know is that I bought a set of plans for this boat from them. They warned me that they are not complete, and they were right.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Lukes, I bought a sloop boat a couple of years ago. The story I heard from the previous owner is that mine was allegedly built somewhere in Maine in about 1996 by a guy who had been a friend and perhaps protégé of Culler's. Whether or not that's true, it's soundly and traditionally built in cedar riveted over oak, and is traditional in its various details - except that the builder included a forestay and one stay on each side of the mast, whereas Culler's original plans showed an unstayed rig.

    It's in my driveway at the moment, and I could take a couple of photos tomorrow if that would be useful. What would you like to see?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Tom,

    Could you please take a pic of the front looking straight on? And also, I'd like to see a close-up of that odd looking cleat on the forward deck.

    Thanks,

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Will do!
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    I was hoping you'd chime in Tom. How are you liking your boat? It is a bit strange for me to work on a boat that I've never had in the water.

    A side view of the forefoot and stem would be nice to see. I'm not that worried about it, and I have Cullers plans, but more info would be nice. Also, if its not too much trouble, a shot inside showing the stem knee would be nice.

    Dave, if you decide to build one, I'd be happy to help fill in the details missing from the plans.

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Another mystery to me in Culler's plans is the hiking board. I cannot figure out where or how it attaches to the boat. Do you have one on yours?

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Had to shift the boat this afternoon to where it will live over the winter... didnt manage to remember to snap those pictures- sorry gents. Will be visiting her next weekend to put her to bed a bit more securely, and will try to remember then. No hiking board on my version, I'm afraid. Nor any idea how it might work.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Tom, no worries. I'll be just fine without the pictures.

    David, I don't have hiking boards, but looking at the plans, I think he meant for these to be a place to sit at the same height as the coaming. The boards rest on the coaming, and are held there by those little brass straps screwed to the boards, and bent down and screwed to the vertical face of the inner coaming. The dowels just rest on the deck and support the hiking boards. That's how I read it anyway.

    Below are a couple of the pictures you asked Tom about. Of course my bow is a bit disassembled at the moment, but you get the idea.


    20201101_191608.jpg
    20201101_191639.jpg

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance


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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Lukes,
    there's another Concordia Sloop from 1967 for sale here: https://www.offcenterharbor.com/dream-boat-harbor-good-boats-for-sale/18-concordia-sloop/. Perhaps the owner can share some info and photos.
    J

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Mitzi is beautiful; I reference those photos often. Someday I hope to have Reliance in that good a shape. In the mean time:

    20201113_204650.jpg
    20201114_132452.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Default Re: Concordia Sloop Boat #5: Reliance

    Culler was a genius. Not just the building, nor even the design, but his choice of colors, and the rigging, and the unique solutions to problems that mixed common sense and frugality with the exigencies of boatyard economics.

    Following your progress!

    Kevin
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