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Thread: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

  1. #1
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    Default This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    The Republican party of your parents, and my parents, is history.

    It has morphed into something very ugly, that my parents, and I'm guessing your parents, wouldn't recognize, let alone vote for.
    Can we have him keel hauled?

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Isn't that morphing done by Americans? What happened?

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Isn't that morphing done by Americans? What happened?

    yes and no. It was taken over by combination of special interests, very loud private citizens, and greed. Lots and lots of greed.
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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Dad stayed Republican but soured on the party after Gingrich. Mom switched in the early ‘60’s because the Democratic Party was addressing red lining and civil rights and the Republicans weren’t.

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    My mother is a lifeline Republican who has not voted for the GOP (except in a few special individual cases) since Reagan.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    My dad actually was a moderate old-school northeastern Republican. He didn't like Reagan much, although I think he voted for him. What he would say about Trump would be deleted by the forum software.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Isn't that morphing done by Americans? What happened?
    What happened? They got addicted to entertainment. They now live in a Fox News Cinematic Universe and that world of make believe drives everything. If you dip your toes into it everything makes sense. Here in the reality based community, not so much.

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Isn't that morphing done by Americans? What happened?
    Voters moved to the right. The Democratic party followed the Republican. There is nothing to move the voters to the left.

    And moving to the left means a lot of people will have to give up their privilege. (remember those people wanting free college and forgiveness of college debt - mostly white kids who think they are entitled to live better lives than their parents.)
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    but my dad wasn't a republican
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    to borrow from another thread:

    it was a reagan era conservative idea that the work of government to support the indigent and mentally ill should be replaced by charity. in other words, let them beg on your freeway on ramps.
    The Republicans of the previous generation are finally seeing the fruits of their labors.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned what really happened.

    1. See oznabrags writings on how the North failed to actually 'win' the Civil War, instead backing off and allowing the philosophy and practices of the South to pull off a 'soft win'. Which set up the eventual turning point that created the Modern Republican Party. That was the choice to pursue a Southern Strategy and cater to divisive, anti-human, ignorant, anti-Enlightenment, backward racism and authoritarianism... as a matter of policy. They sold their souls for power... and look where it's gotten them.

    2. See my own writings about how the U.S. swings between policies that resemble Democratic Socialism and policies of Pure Capitalism (laissez-faire, libertarian, etc.)... and how we've now swung further in the latter direction than since the Great Depression. And how (hello Acton) one of the many dysfunctional aspects of life at that area of the spectrum is that wealth and power concentrate at the top and gangsterism comes to the fore. This, of course, affects both political parties. But the R's were already well set up and headed in the gangster direction (see #1) and embraced this approach. While large swaths of the D's have resisted it.
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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    money and religion

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    money and religion
    Money & Power.

    The religion bit was just a handle with which to manipulate the proles.
    Last edited by David G; 10-24-2020 at 03:39 PM.
    David G
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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Isn't that morphing done by Americans? What happened?
    Probably more than I should bite off this afternoon, but I'll take a run at it. I'd say the current mess is a combination of three things - an oversimplification, no doubt, but most political theorizing is.

    1. The 'Southern Strategy' and the revenge of the Confederacy. The central divide in US politics for most of our history has been between the agrarian slaveholding anglo-saxon south, and the industrial urban immigration-driven north. This was almost as true in 1920 and 1970 as it was in 1860. From the end of Reconstruction until the 1960s, white southerners voted for Democrats because Abe Lincoln was a Republican. In the late 1960s and 1970s, Republican strategists figured correctly that conservative white southerners were a natural Republican constituency, and convinced them to switch parties. This had several effects: it divided the parties strictly along left-right ideological lines, something that hadn't happened for over a century, and it drove the Republicans farther and farther right as the heirs of the Confederacy swallowed the party whole.

    2. The addictive drug of 'energize the base'. Blame Lee Atwater for this one. He realized that a good way to win close elections without compromising with the center was to increase turnout among the hard core. It worked; the Republicans have been doing it for 40 years with fair success. The problem is that it requires ever-higher doses to be effective. We may now be reaching the point at which it doesn't work anymore. and no amount of fanaticism compensates for smaller numbers - at least in a reasonably fair democracy. Thus the temptation to adjust 'reasonably fair'.

    3. Demographics and Desperation. Every core Republican constituency is shrinking as a percentage of the population; White folks, people in rural areas and small towns, Evangelical Christians, less-educated white people . . . And there's also a generational shift; baby boomers are starting to die off, and the younger generations have much more uniformly liberal ideas. (The Atlantic had an excellent article on this; look here.) The saner Republicans realized this after the 2012 election, and came up with lots of ways to broaden the party's appeal - and then the party did exactly the opposite. Michael Anton's hysterical 'flight 93 election; charge the cockpit or you die' was totally insane about 2016, but has some truth in it over the longer term. Demographics is destiny in a democracy, and if the Republicans don't expand their base of support, they'll be in very bad trouble outside the ex-Confederacy, and some places even there. Georgia is evenly divided this time, and may very well go for Biden (polls here). Georgia! Desperation can tempt politicians to extreme measures.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 10-24-2020 at 01:50 PM.
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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    My dad actually was a moderate old-school northeastern Republican. He didn't like Reagan much, although I think he voted for him. What he would say about Trump would be deleted by the forum software.
    My dear sainted mom has always voted Republican, but with soft midwestern Main Street values. Despite being an evangelical Christian she’s pro-life, pro-education anti-book banning, pro-gay rights, etc. An old school center right open-minded Republican, all of whom are no longer aligned with this party.

    Like your Dad, the things my mom says about Trump shock me. Ive barely heard her say a mean thing about anyone ever, and her vitriol for Trump has no visible limit.

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    This is a very interesting thread, for this transAtlantic observer.

    At the level of the professional political operators, never very numerous, the British Conservative Party has always tended to share ideas with and imitate the Republican Party, as the Labour Party tends to do the same with the Democrats (James Carville had a very visible effect on the Blair Labour Party). My parents were liberal Conservatives. My father’s mother was from Philadelphia.

    I have come to think that the Civil War was essentially un-winnable by the Union. What I mean here is that the war stopped when the North had had enough, and the South was beaten in military terms. The idea of Reconstruction was a completely novel idea. It was, I think, a very good one, but it was eighty years ahead of its time. It took both World Wars before the idea of unconditional surrender followed by a comprehensive rebuilding of the defeated enemy’s economy and changing their hearts and minds was adopted. Reconstruction needed an unconditional surrender of the Confederacy, with war crimes trials, followed by a serious occupation, starting with comprehensive land reform. The will to do this was not present in the North. The North knew it had won the argument, won the war and won the economic future. More than that, its people were not willing to do, and besides, there was Manifest Destiny to occupy people.

    The thing that really should not have been done was the Southern Strategy. That could and should have been avoided, but it was just too tempting, even for many decent Republicans, who were so concerned to fight the slimier sorts of Democrats that they became the thing they most hated.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    This is a very interesting thread, for this transAtlantic observer. . . .

    I have come to think that the Civil War was essentially un-winnable by the Union. . . . The North knew it had won the argument, won the war and won the economic future. More than that, its people were not willing to do, and besides, there was Manifest Destiny to occupy people.

    The thing that really should not have been done was the Southern Strategy. . . . to fight the slimier sorts of Democrats they became the thing they most hated.
    Partially winnable - kept the country together, eliminated slavery, but not much more. They gave Reconstruction a go, but there wasn't enough will behind it. Bringing the ex-slaves into society as full citizens was anathema to white southerners, and was only important to an idealistic minority in the north. U.S. Grant tried as president, but couldn't keep it going, and then the compromise over the contested 1876 election (actually turning the south over to all-white rule and the ex-slaves over to the tender mercies of their former masters) ended it altogether. I'm often amazed that I grew up with Civil War history, reading Bruce Catton and visiting Gettysburg and Appomattox, and the whole end-of-Reconstruction fiasco was completely ignored in the standard histories. Our original sin indeed, that still reverberates in our politics 160 years after the war.

    The Southern Strategy was, I think, almost inevitable. It's very Darwinian; politicians and parties that win elections get power, and are rewarded for doing things that help them win elections. Every party has people whose job it is to figure out how to win elections, policy and ethics and the good of the nation be damned. Conservative white southerners were still reeling from the success of the Civil Rights movement, and felt betrayed by the Democratic party that they'd supported since 1876 - justifiably so, from the segregationists' point of view. Much too tempting a block of voters to ignore. For conservative Republicans in 1968, white southern Democrats were not what they most hated, but people with whom they were happy to make common cause. Abe Lincoln was long, long dead.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 10-24-2020 at 03:01 PM.
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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    The republican party of recent decades focused on "one-issue" voters. Only after university and, equally as important, working around people who were more enlightened than me (stealth liberals in conservative industries, we would hang late after work and talk), did I break out of that and began voting for candidates who did not favor my specific one-issue but were better as a whole. I began thinking of more than just my own self interests.

    My dad is still a one issue voter. When we last spoke about the election over a month ago, he still would not commit to voting against Trump. He's not wealthy. He's not anti-tax. He's not anti-abortion. He's not religious. He's not racist. Guns. Guns were his primary form of recreation. Hunting (ethical and local, for food, not a trophy hunter), target competition at a high level (including medaling in national competition with a semi-auto military-style rifle), reloading for himself and friends. Guns.

    I'm also what would be categorized as "pro-gun", but liberal and very "anti-violence", feeling the larger issues (which have much wider implications for quality of life for all) need to be addressed. And that this is also in the interests of the liberal side. So I'm voting for Biden (easy decision for me), but hoping desperately that he does not make the same mistakes on that issue as Obama, which just further empowered the republicans.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Conservative white southerners were still reeling from the success of the Civil Rights movement, and felt betrayed by the Democratic party that they'd supported since 1976 - justifiably so, from the segregationists' point of view. Much too tempting a block of voters to ignore. For conservative Republicans in 1968, white southern Democrats were not what they most hated, but people with whom they were happy to make common cause. Abe Lincoln was long, long dead.
    (bold) Did you mean 1876?
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    ^ Great analysis, ACB.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob (oh, THAT Bob) View Post
    (bold) Did you mean 1876?
    I certainly did. Thanks, fixed it.
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    As for the religious buy-in to the "Republican" thugocracy, we also have the Koch brother's contribution. They contracted Cambridge Analytica and a software company to create a program that would target the mentally ill and the vulnerable to indoctrinate them into the far right wing.
    "The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed." William Gibson

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    I think a lot changed after the Tea Party took over.

    Let us not forget the senate, not long ago, passed immigration reform twice, but Boehner wouldn't let the first one come up for a vote in the House, then Ryan wouldn't let the second one come up for a vote in the house.

    They invoked the "Hastert"(? spelling) rule. Nothing came to a vote in the house unless a majority of Republicans supported it, and that kept bills that would pass from being voted on.

    Under Reagan the GOP became great at marketing. He 'preached' balancing the budget, but never submitted a balanced budget. Our debt grew a good deal during his presidency. It grew a lot under G.W.'s presidency. Under Trump it's rising faster than ever, and the Republicans in congress NEVER have a problem with the debt going up except when there's a democrat in the White House.

    The republicans of decades ago wouldn't recognize the party today.
    Can we have him keel hauled?

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    Quote Originally Posted by webishop14 View Post
    As for the religious buy-in to the "Republican" thugocracy, we also have the Koch brother's contribution. They contracted Cambridge Analytica and a software company to create a program that would target the mentally ill and the vulnerable to indoctrinate them into the far right wing.
    Cambridge Analytica is a bit like Lee Atwater - someone with a vested interest promoting themselves, who’s perhaps now being given far more credit than due.

    Before there could be a “southern strategy” African-Americans needed to be driven from the Republican Party. Barry Goldwater did that. The National Review supported segregation, the Birchers regularly labeled civil rights activists communists - it was a common trope. Eventually Republicans wised up and actively courted it.

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    My dad was a proud member of the union and a life long Democrat. Damn, I sure do miss him
    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccmanuals View Post
    My dad was a proud member of the union and a life long Democrat. Damn, I sure do miss him
    I wasn't just a union member, I what Chief Steward for three decades. I enjoyed (?) a fairly good track record of winning grievances in arbitration. Mainly because management took action it really had no valid reason to take.
    Can we have him keel hauled?

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Cambridge Analytica is a bit like Lee Atwater - someone with a vested interest promoting themselves, who’s perhaps now being given far more credit than due.

    Before there could be a “southern strategy” African-Americans needed to be driven from the Republican Party. Barry Goldwater did that. The National Review supported segregation, the Birchers regularly labeled civil rights activists communists - it was a common trope. Eventually Republicans wised up and actively courted it.
    Indeed. Lee Atwater was very good at self-promotion, and all the blame for 'energize the base' definitely doesn't belong to him. Although was the Chairman of the RNC and had lots of influence, he died in '91 (age 40, brain cancer).
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Isn't that morphing done by Americans? What happened?
    The Reichista oligarchy invested heavily in media, and were quite open about their plans to do so starting in 1990 or so.

    They went WAAAAAY beyond ol' Tom Harvey.

    US hate radio and TV are followed by tens of millions of USAeans, and their followers exist in an unrecognizable (to us) alternate reality.

    Most of it has to do with the deliberate stoking of racial animus.

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    I'm glad you all took the time to answer the questions, for a European these kind of facts and opinions are hard to find in the news- and information sources available here.
    I have learned a couple of new things from this thread, thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    The Reichista oligarchy invested heavily in media, and were quite open about their plans to do so starting in 1990 or so.

    They went WAAAAAY beyond ol' Tom Harvey.

    US hate radio and TV are followed by tens of millions of USAeans, and their followers exist in an unrecognizable (to us) alternate reality.

    Most of it has to do with the deliberate stoking of racial animus.
    That’s a very good point. The alien landscape of Trumpery was not drawn on the social media in the USA; it began with hate radio, and transferred seamlessly onto the social media.

    Who listens to hate radio? People - mostly men - who drive for a living - truckers, cabbies, sales reps - and people who work on their own indoors - mostly women - housewives, carers, cleaners. But they spread the contagion.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    I remember 2010 and all the town hall meetings disrupted by screaming tea party people, and how poorly the politician handled them.

    The wise thing to do, IMO, would have been to pick a couple out of the crowd, invite them on stage, give them a chair and have a conversation with them.

    Lawrence O'Donnell found a young woman who was part of the tea party crowd and invited her on his show. They talked for 10 - 15 minutes, and she had no idea what Medicare is or that her grandparents are probably on it and like it.

    No way to know, but it's my belief that had the senators/house members holding those town halls invite a couple of the crowd to the stage and had similar conversations, it would have taken a lot of steam out of the tea party movement, and history would have been different.
    Can we have him keel hauled?

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Just read Stuart Stevens "It Was All a Lie", and all will be revealed.

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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    well, we all know the Tea Party was an astroturf movement. It did not spring up naturally, but was funded by a variety of nefarious sources who just wanted to depose President Obama and his ACA. If the Tea Party were a true group of people dissatisfied with government spending, they would be frothing at the mouth over how much the Government is hemorrhaging money at the moment.
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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    Right-wing talk radio was a large factor. I remember one of the salesman for the company I worked for around 1990, who did indeed drive a lot, getting all enthusiastic about Rush Limbaugh. I tried to be polite. I'd call it a subset of a larger phenomenon, the proliferation of sources of information, and the lowering (or elimination) of barriers to entry. We had a pretty anomalous situation in, say, 1960. The economics of newspapers meant they were large and few, unlike 80 or 100 years before. Broadcast technology of the time meant that the spectrum was restricted, and there were relatively few TV stations. Printing your own newsletter or magazine was possible, but distribution costs were pretty high, and there were great advantages to high volume. It seems paradoxical, but greater concentration of news sources produced something of a centrist consensus, at least about the facts. The curve was higher in the middle, a standard deviation was smaller, and the fringes were more fringe.

    Now 'anybody can put anything on the internet', as the saying goes, and they do. Finding propaganda, lies, conspiracy theories, the ravings of madmen, and simple bullsh!t is much easier. OTOH, so is checking for accuracy; two minutes with Politifact or Snopes works wonders - but you have to want to do that. A hypothesis: the current RW hysteria is mainly older people, who grew up in the age of three networks and consensus news. Walter Cronkite may have been wrong sometimes, but he wasn't nuts, and he wouldn't deliberately lie to you. Might these people be more inclined to believe what they read? And right-wing politics among older white folks correlates very well with a lower level of education, which I think would also select against skepticism and fact-checking. Younger folks might be more used to a wide range of nonsense, and be more skeptical and check accuracy more often.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 10-25-2020 at 12:26 PM.
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    Default Re: This is NOT your dad's Republican Party

    The New GOP has a secret success formula that always wins every time.

    First we get a Democrat (i.e. long time Democrat and President of his trade union-Ronald Reagan, Donald Trump...Ivanka), then we register them as Republicans and have them run for president using Democrat Party positions on issues. We then concentrate on the Democrat Party's core constituency, the working class and we win every time...

    When the big banks and China call to give us those Billions, we just pass along the Big Guy's phone number...and Hunter goes and makes the deals.
    "Deconstruction is not a method, and cannot be transformed into one" Jacques Derrida (1930–2004)

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