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Thread: lazy lines

  1. #1
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    Default lazy lines

    looking through a list of rigging requirements there is a call for 2 jib lazy lines and 2 main lazy lines.
    What exactly are those.?

    It is not a sheet as they are specified as well.
    The only lazy line I know is with the spinnaker.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    What sort of boat, what sort of rig? Does the jib have a club at its foot?
    The only thing that I can guess at are lazyjacks, but those are very rig specific.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    When you have two sheets for a sail, the weather sheet which is not in use is the lazy sheet.

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    Default Re: lazy lines

    The rigging is for the Herreshoff 12 1/2 [1926]

    Thats perhaps the answer,are they are attached to the jib boom?
    what about the main lazy lines/
    Jib sheet and main sheet are specified separately .
    Appreciate the difference between lazy and guys


    T

  5. #5
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    The rigging is for the Herreshoff 12 1/2 [1926]

    Thats perhaps the answer,are they are attached to the jib boom?
    what about the main lazy lines/
    Jib sheet and main sheet are specified separately .
    Appreciate the difference between lazy and guys


    T

    Yep, usually called topping lifts.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Thanks. both for the reply but also the picture.Lovely boat,Is that yours?
    It often comes down to nomenclature.
    Where are the topping lifts attached,please don't say on the mast.I can't really see any on that boat
    I have two topping lifts on my gaff cutter boom ,do I need two for the H12.
    And two for th ejib boom?

    I have been thinking where to put a topping lift block for the main
    are your shrouds wire spliced and parcelled before the rigging screws?
    Is there a turnbuckle on the forestay?
    have you a pic of the top of thismast

  7. #7
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Frobisher, you may be interested in the "official" rigging rules of the H Class Association:

    https://www.herreshoff12.org/h-class-rules/

    My own Somes Sound boat is rigged very similarly to an H12. I chose the marconi rig. I do not have lazy anythings. I do have a topping lift on the main boom but none on the club. I cannot fathom why anyone would think lazy jacks or a topping lift would be necessary on the jib. It's really a small affair. I do have a downhaul rigged on mine to help control it in windy conditions when I have my hands full doing other things and can't go forward. I sail by myself most of the time. Consequently, I rigged my boat for me. Double ended jib sheet, clew outhaul on the stb. side of the main boom, reefing clew outhaul on port side of boom. That's plenty of string to mess with.

    Jeff

  8. #8
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    Thanks. both for the reply but also the picture.Lovely boat,Is that yours?
    It often comes down to nomenclature.
    Where are the topping lifts attached,please don't say on the mast.I can't really see any on that boat
    I have two topping lifts on my gaff cutter boom ,do I need two for the H12.
    And two for th ejib boom?

    I have been thinking where to put a topping lift block for the main
    are your shrouds wire spliced and parcelled before the rigging screws?
    Is there a turnbuckle on the forestay?
    have you a pic of the top of thismast
    Not my boat. I did a Google once you had identified the class/design to clarify your question.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Thanks Jeff,helpful again. and Nick
    I have read the class rules but they only pertain to gaffed rigged boats.I have looked for the racing rules for marconis without success.
    I wasn't necessarily thinking I had to have them but curious as to why and where they were specified.
    I also will end up with a Marconi rig .Certainly would want to incorporate the other mods you mention
    Have you a solid or birdseye mast.
    I am playing with a Haven at the moment ,one problem I find is the weight of the mast when lifting from the tenon hole and trying to keep it under control.
    do you keep your shrouds attached but perhaps loosened?
    Frobisher
    Last edited by Frobisher; 10-13-2020 at 12:35 PM. Reason: grammar

  10. #10
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Jeff,
    what do you use on the mast head for the topping lift,A deck bow or cheek block or?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Hate to confuse things, but I would guess it was referring to "lazy jacks" not topping lifts. That is why there are two for the jib and two for the main.

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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Interesting .
    so lazy lines are just lazy jacks? Lazy jacks are part of the topping lifts.
    I have them on my gaff cutter.
    Quite useful for the gaff though in any cross wind they always manage to tangle.
    Haven't noticed them in any photos of old boats.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    Interesting .
    so lazy lines are just lazy jacks? Lazy jacks are part of the topping lifts.
    I have them on my gaff cutter.
    Quite useful for the gaff though in any cross wind they always manage to tangle.
    Haven't noticed them in any photos of old boats.
    No. Lazy jacks help when dropping sail, they act like a net gathering in the folds of sail cloth. Those two lines from the end of the jib club cannot do that, they are topping lifts. Topping lifts are often double so that they do not make the boom or club twist and roll by lifting from one side only.
    Lazy jacks are more of a US thing.
    These are typical lazy jacks
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 10-13-2020 at 02:36 PM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Now that we know she's a Doughdish, my reference to the lazy sheet was wrong. It's clear that the reference is to simple lazy jacks for each sail.

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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Now that we know she's a Doughdish, my reference to the lazy sheet was wrong. It's clear that the reference is to simple lazy jacks for each sail.
    Really?


    There is no way those topping lifts on the jib club can gather the sail as it is lowered
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 10-13-2020 at 04:06 PM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    Thanks Jeff,helpful again. and Nick
    I have read the class rules but they only pertain to gaffed rigged boats.I have looked for the racing rules for marconis without success.
    I wasn't necessarily thinking I had to have them but curious as to why and where they were specified.
    I also will end up with a Marconi rig .Certainly would want to incorporate the other mods you mention
    Have you a solid or birdseye mast.
    I am playing with a Haven at the moment ,one problem I find is the weight of the mast when lifting from the tenon hole and trying to keep it under control.
    do you keep your shrouds attached but perhaps loosened?
    Frobisher
    Being curious, I did a bit more noodling around online looking for a marconi rigged H12. I can't find any. There are marconi rigged Doughdish boats. Ballentines offers that rig as an option. But the race rules for the H12 call for gaff rigs but they don't specifically exclude the marconi. Yet, in all the photos posted on the H Class Assoc. site, there are not any marconi boats racing with the gaffers. But if one isn't going to race... anything goes.

    I built my mast using the birdseye method. It weighs 36 pounds fully rigged, ready to step. I'm in my early 70's and find that it gets a little bit heavier each year although the scale says otherwise. But why else would it get a little bit harder to step each year? A mystery for sure. To thwart this aberration of nature I have a few ideas on how to incorporate a hinged and raised step to aid the raising/lowering of the mast. I might do this during the coming winter season while the boat isn't being sailed. I don't think I'd need to do this if my boat didn't have a centerboard trunk because the mast could just be lowered while still in the step. Because my c/b is in the way, I have to lift the mast while vertical, move it to the side, then let it tilt down. That lifting and moving is the crux.

    I remove the shrouds and forestay from the chainplates before lowering the mast. The partner keeps it upright until I open the gate.

    I'm posting a photo of my topping lift block. I use dyneema with a short length of braided line at the cleat end. Just to keep weight down.

    Jeff

    IMG_3482.jpg

  17. #17
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Is the white pulley your clew outhaul?
    What arrangements do you find best on the mast for the topping lift?double block with main [not possible if sheave in mast] or cheek block?

    I just couldn't hold the mast when a side wind caught it.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    The photo shows the top of my mast. The white sheave is the main halyard. The topping lift is the bronze cheek block.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Thank you.senior moment

  20. #20
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Some boats use "Lazy Jacks" in place of the topping lift. When not in use they are cleated near the goose neck and pass under the boom until needed for dropping the sail. Then they are led aft and the after one is takes the place of the topping lift. That is at the option of the skipper. Diffent boats, different "lazy Jacks".
    Jay

  21. #21
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    That makes a lot of sense. but I am still not quite sure how they are rigged.
    The specification call for 2 lazy lines of 20ft. Marconi rig.
    frobisher

  22. #22
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Here's a pic of Marmalade with the most powerful iteration of my LazyLifts. The photo is a little confusing because the shadows of the port side show through.



    If you follow from near the mast head a pair of lines go down to the boom. It's actually one line that passes under the boom through a fairlead and located about 6" forward of where the peak and gaff lay when the sail is struck. Thus the gaff is always between the lifts. Both sides go through cheek blocks on the mast and down to a hanging block on each end. In the pic these are at the upper batten.

    A similar arrangement happens with the next line - passing under the boom at about it's mid point and up through those upper hanging blocks and down a ways terminating in a hanging block at each end. In the pic these blocks are near the second reef point of the second reef.

    And then again except this time the lines end at a cleat on each side of the boom, at the second tied reef point in the pic.

    If you draw the plan, you will see that this amounts to a 6:1 tackle but incredibly inefficient due to friction and the spread along the boom. The good thing is that the most stress is on the aft most lines so they work as quarterlifts when the sail's leach is not holding things up.

    Because the LazyLifts pass freely under the boom, the whole thing can shift side to side. This allows the lifts to be set such that once the sail is up the leeward side lies against the sail and the weather side is reasonably trim. When you tack, the sail pushes the lifts to allow the new leeward side to lie flat. Were the lifts attached to the boom, unable to slide under, the formerly weather side would crease into the sail while the formerly leeward side your have all sorts of slack. Conventional lazy jacks are usually set up so that both sides have enough slack that they don't crease the sail when on the lee side, but they flog about on the weather side.

    On Marmalade I liked to have the boom and gaff a little higher when he sail was struck, easily handled by giving a tug on one side or the other of that forward part that ends in boom cleats

    Marmalade's boom weighs almost 200#, and the sail was 590 sq ft, hence the need for all that power. Most boats today have much lighter booms and with a marconi rig reducing by one stage (two separate lines making 3:1) is just fine.

    For a wee boat like the Doughdish I'd go for real simplicity with a single line passing under the boom at just forward of where the gaff lies down, up at about 45 degrees to cheek blocks each side of the mast, and down to a cleat on the starboard side of the boom. Have the port side end in an eye splice that passes under the boom to the cleat.

    If you want something to keep the jib boom under control, a line passing through a shackle up on the mast or the tang holding the head stay and down one end passing through a fairlead under the boom at about midway should do. The part that passes under might then end in an eye splice so the other end can meet it forming a becket bend.

    Because jibs tend to 'self hoist' in high wind, add a light line as a down haul. It should be passed through the sail clips so's not to flog about. You might need to lash on small rings if the line and stay through the clips are too tight.

    This sort of rigging is for sailors who don't mind a slight loss of sail efficiency from the lifts lying against the sail. And that loss is nothing compared to the ability to single handedly reef in boisterous conditions.

    G'luck

  23. #23
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    This pic illustrates how with shortened sail I could dock Marmalade under sail. Shortened to make all things slower and because at full sail the gaff sometimes would not drop when the peak halyard was eased. At least not quickly enough.

    The full length battens are totally wonderful with lazy lifts.

    My friend Phil is lowering the sail and I'm on the port side (the lump about at the skylight) ready to step to the dock with lines.

    The shot also gives a view of the lifts in lifting action.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: lazy lines

    Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed reply.
    I really like fully battened sails for a number of reasons [different thread]
    To go back to my original question as to what is a lazy line I can now understand the Herreshoff rigging.
    To recap that called for 2 off 20 ft lazy lines.They must have been fixed on the mast,cleated at the partner and brought back to a cleat on the boom when required.
    Very simple. Not exactly the easiest solution when wanting to reef single handed but at least I understand both the term and the spec
    Thank everyone for the input
    I am putting up a picture of my gaff cutter
    FrobisherIMGP1671 (2).jpg

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