Results 1 to 35 of 35

Thread: choosing a design and other questions

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    glasgow, scotland
    Posts
    14

    Default choosing a design and other questions

    Hi. I’m wondering what of the two designs you would pick for cruising in the hebrides. The two designs are 19 jola gaff cutter and 18´ft morning tide https://www.selway-fisher.com/PC1620.htm. The crew would be 2-3 persons. How does a fiberglassed plywood hull react to salt water? If you have other designs then please write them in this thread. It does not matter what kind of construction type it uses. I would prefer a traditional built boat.

    stay safe

    Dave.
    Last edited by dave2700; 10-10-2020 at 09:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    49,356

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Glassed plywood (use epoxy) works just fine in any water that's not boiling.

    I like the Jola but better yet a boat with bilge keels or flat bottom (can be narrow like some of the S-F boats pictured) with a centerboard so the boat can stand up in a mud berth.

    Neither boat looks suitable for three.

    Both currents and weather changes can be fierce up there so hoping you are a strong and experienced sailor.

    G'luck

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    3,608

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Ian makes good points. My 19'-9" boat (Iain Oughtred's Eun Mara) is ok with two, but quite crowed with 3 aboard.

    "I would prefer a traditional built boat." What do you mean by this? Plywood/epoxy boats go back quite a ways now but I don't think they've reached "traditional" status. Do you plan on keeping the boat in the water or on a trailer? Is your idea of "cruising" 2-3 days or weeks?

    I'm not trying to give you a hard time here. Your original question was kind of broad, just trying to focus in on what you are after.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    glasgow, scotland
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Ian makes good points. My 19'-9" boat (Iain Oughtred's Eun Mara) is ok with two, but quite crowed with 3 aboard.

    "I would prefer a traditional built boat." What do you mean by this? Plywood/epoxy boats go back quite a ways now but I don't think they've reached "traditional" status. Do you plan on keeping the boat in the water or on a trailer? Is your idea of "cruising" 2-3 days or weeks?

    I'm not trying to give you a hard time here. Your original question was kind of broad, just trying to focus in on what you are after.
    i mean traditional built carvel. 2-7 days.

    does your boat handle strong winds well? she does look nice.
    Last edited by dave2700; 10-10-2020 at 11:53 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    glasgow, scotland
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Glassed plywood (use epoxy) works just fine in any water that's not boiling.

    I like the Jola but better yet a boat with bilge keels or flat bottom (can be narrow like some of the S-F boats pictured) with a centerboard so the boat can stand up in a mud berth.

    Neither boat looks suitable for three.

    Both currents and weather changes can be fierce up there so hoping you are a strong and experienced sailor.

    G'luck
    i was going to use boat legs. are they bad?
    i do not have any experience with boat legs so i dont know.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    glasgow, scotland
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    what do you think of the 18ft version http://www.benford.us/index.html?cruisingsail/?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    49,356

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    I've used legs on two of my schooners, and Alden 43 and an LFH Marco Polo. My cat boat was comfy sleeping given how gently she was heeled when dried out and Meg, 47' LFH leeboard ketch, has a wide enough keel that she stands upright just fine. Legs are good for one tide cycle and even in a larger boat are two more things to clutter your life. Also, legs require robust attachment points and something resembling the basket on a ski pole to keep from slipping into the muck. Finally, in Great Britain there are many boat with permanently attached legs that can be swung up. On a flat mud berth they will go through many tide cycles but the cruiser needs to be ready for uneven ground so adjustable legs matter. Mine were long enough to come about 3' over the gunnel with tackle from the top of the leg to a chainplate. Things will be nicer if you can find a boat that one way or another can stand on her own.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Falmouth England.
    Posts
    432

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    The rig on the morning tide looks much better. Jola has a droopy boom.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,946

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    There's a world of difference between the smaller Selway-Fisher boat and the Benford design. How big and complicated a project are you ready to take on? The cost range is probably considerable as well. In any event, a bigger, more heavily ballasted boat will always feel more secure than a smaller, lighter unballasted or very lightly ballasted boat.

    It's true that many boats under 20' show berths for four. But the reality is that two adults and two small children is the most these designs can really manage. And I think even that would be a squeeze -- the berths are there, but where do all the supplies go?

    As to other designs, Ougthred's Eun Mara comes to mind. But again, overnighting two is all one would expect.

    -Dave

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    1,342

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quite like the Jola, but maybe ask the designer to move the main bulkhead forward a bit to increase cockpit space and delete one of the quarter berths? the other berth could be moved forward slightly and the galley/sink on the other side. Paul Fisher is very adaptable with his designs.
    Also, look about a bit more, there are many other designs out there. George Wisstock for example. https://www.whisstock.com/
    Last edited by Andrew2; 10-11-2020 at 01:52 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,265

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dave2700 View Post
    what do you think of the 18ft version http://www.benford.us/index.html?cruisingsail/?
    I just don't understand the need for that sort of displacement, even allowing for crew, stores, etc. It's a canoe yawl, not an icebreaker. Well, it's called a canoe yawl, but it's arguably a 44 gallon drum being squeezed into a pint pot in a way that Albert Strange etc would not recognise at all.

    Considering boats tend to cost according to their weight and sail area, I confess I can't see the benefit of packing so much weight into a short hull, particularly when the overall length is then extended with a bowsprit.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    glasgow, scotland
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    Quite like the Jola, but maybe ask the designer to move the main bulkhead forward a bit to increase cockpit space and delete one of the quarter berths? the other berth could be moved forward slightly and the galley/sink on the other side. Paul Fisher is very adaptable with his designs.
    Also, look about a bit more, there are many other designs out there. George Wisstock for example. https://www.whisstock.com/
    thanks for the link i like the yawls and the cutter wery much.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    glasgow, scotland
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    I've used legs on two of my schooners, and Alden 43 and an LFH Marco Polo. My cat boat was comfy sleeping given how gently she was heeled when dried out and Meg, 47' LFH leeboard ketch, has a wide enough keel that she stands upright just fine. Legs are good for one tide cycle and even in a larger boat are two more things to clutter your life. Also, legs require robust attachment points and something resembling the basket on a ski pole to keep from slipping into the muck. Finally, in Great Britain there are many boat with permanently attached legs that can be swung up. On a flat mud berth they will go through many tide cycles but the cruiser needs to be ready for uneven ground so adjustable legs matter. Mine were long enough to come about 3' over the gunnel with tackle from the top of the leg to a chainplate. Things will be nicer if you can find a boat that one way or another can stand on her own.
    thanks for the answer i think i will go with a round/flat bottom boat or a bilge keel boat.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Wales
    Posts
    22,791

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    This risks sounding rude - but it's not meant that way - How much sailing experience do you have in Hebridean waters? - Are you including the Outer Hebrides in this plan?
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Location
    Norwich, Norfolk, UK
    Posts
    215

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    I've lived and sailed in the Outer Hebridies (purely on the main land side, the Atlantic side is much too risky, nowhere to hide from the weather) , sailing between Islands was in a Lysander 17, less suitable than the Jola or the little Morning tide. Both boats would be capable of sailing out there ... If you choose the weather carefully.. Having been holed up in a tiny loch during a force 10 it was very uncomfortable, in such a small boat..

    Deliberately taking the bottom is not something you do much of in the Hebridies as most of it has a very rocky bottom. However it is useful to have bilge keels, as you generally have a shorter draft, so much easier to launch and recover. Sandy beaches in the Inner and Outer Hebridies tend to be exposed, so not a good place to beach.
    Last edited by The Q; 10-12-2020 at 03:00 AM.
    Just an amateur bodging away..

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    glasgow, scotland
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    This risks sounding rude - but it's not meant that way - How much sailing experience do you have in Hebridean waters? - Are you including the Outer Hebrides in this plan?
    i dont plan to do the outer hebrides it will mostly be the coast. i have experience coats sailing and i go sailing with my friend and his boat who has experience. i dont mean to be rude either but im just wondering what you would say would be the biggest problem?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    1,253

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Your boat length limit will be dictated by either your building space length or how much you're prepared to pay for annual mooring or launch fees. Do we assume your looking at max 20ft?

    Your boat weight limit is going to be set by your cars trailer limit (minus the trailer weight) assuming you're wanting to trailer it home in the depths of winter unless you are intending to keep it in the boat yard and craned out and pay for that every year?

    Are you building this yourself or paying someone to build it. You broadly seem to be looking at around 20ft trailer sailers of which there are many good ones. Sleeping 3-4 is going to be a squeeze for light displacement and 20ft but can be done.

    This Dudley Dix Cape Cutter for example sleeps 4 adults, is relatively easily buildable from a CNC Jordan Boats kit (£3k) and is well designed to be fun to sail and safe. It would be suitable for prudent use 9 months of the year in protected water.





    If you want more 'sea keeping' your going to need more weight and more depth...then you have to accept boat yard fees, cranage and antifouling etc year on year. And have time for all that. On the good side, these costs are still quite reasonable in Scotland compared tot he rest of the UK where it's become onerous.

    I'd advise against carvel construction if you looking at trailer sailing. If you want a heavy deeper boat then it's more suitable. If it'smore the smooth hull aesthetic your after...this is a Vivier Meaban which also comes with yacht legs. Its built strip plank.



    Persoanally for Scottish weather I'd want a Fisher 25/30/34/38 motorsailer with an Eberspacher diesel heater I think...



    If your adamant you want a carvel built boat, it does take some woodworking skill which you are going to have to be prepared to learn. Generally that would be a project that you tackle after building a few smaller boats but a passionate well read beginner with self belief the right attitude and aptitude and could do it. Heavy displacement that better suits heavier carvel construction costs money though in materials, even the lead is eye watering. At the smaller end of the scale you'd be looking at things like this...

    Gartside. 5 tons. Hannah. Sleep 3.



    It would be £20k in materials and engine.

    If you think it will be mostly you and one other max, still carvel, then smaller but very shapely things like this Atkin Maid of Endor exist.



    That Capecutter is probably going to be doable, not overly expensive, uses a small cheap outboard engine, trailerable home for winter. You'll avoid yard costs etc. That's probably your sweet spot for poking around prorected water in the summer without becoming financially burdesome.

    If you aren't housing 3-4 people, then there are many great boats available, but that will limit choice somewhat, although interior layout is adjustable in some cases. If you instead plan to buy a grp boat, boats in Scotland are away from the main UK market in England and will usually be a bit cheaper. If you buy, maintain and resell carefully you can get your money back usually. Small keel boats are always a hard resell though, so keep it to a trailer sailer. Something like Cornish Crabber Shrimper or a Norfolk Gypsy are easy to live with.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 10-12-2020 at 06:05 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,265

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    I confess, I just don't get boats like Hannah. At 10,000 lbs it's as heavy as many modern 36 footers that will have three double cabins, each possibly as comfortable as the entire accommodation of Hannah. If we assume that the 23' Hannah is as fast as the 25' Vertue or Folkboat (and it's almost certainly vastly slower) then under its full sail it's still dramatically slower and has a larger, more complicated rig than a good 36'er lolling around under mainsail.....hell, put a double reef in the 36'ers main and it would still probably be easier and faster than a Hannah in any conditions. There are plenty of boats that have more proven seatime than the Hannah. So why make it so heavy? What virtues does the weight create? It seems like building a car out of 1/2" steel. Why would you do it unless you expect a lot of collisions?

    The claim on Gartside's page that a 23 footer is "perhaps the ideal size for a cruising couple" is odd. There have been plenty of surveys of very experienced cruisers, and none of those I saw said that a 23 footer was the idea size. On what basis does he claim that? I lived happily aboard a 2 ton boat for years but there's no way I'd be happy cruising for long without standing headroom, with nowhere to put a dinghy, chuck bulky stuff or shower. Not to mention that without getting personal, for many of us an "ideal" cruising bot for couples would actually have a double bunk. Doesn't Gartside have a love life?

    PS - can anyone work out how a boat without standing headroom under the cabintop can have enough space to use a head in the forepeak? Apparently you can't sit up with your upper body through the forehatch as in some small boats, so do you use the head lying down? If the boat is that small, why make it so heavy?
    Last edited by Chris249; 10-12-2020 at 03:14 PM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Wales
    Posts
    22,791

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dave2700 View Post
    i dont plan to do the outer hebrides it will mostly be the coast. i have experience coats sailing and i go sailing with my friend and his boat who has experience. i dont mean to be rude either but im just wondering what you would say would be the biggest problem?
    Small boats tend to be slow which can make tidal gates tricky and the west coast has some famous ones.

    At that size, the firth of of Clyde, and the associated sea lochs makes an exquisitely good cruising ground with enough delights an problems for a whole lifetime.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    New Orleans, LA, USA
    Posts
    111

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    I confess, I just don't get boats like Hannah. At 10,000 lbs it's as heavy as many modern 36 footers that will have three double cabins, each possibly as comfortable as the entire accommodation of Hannah. If we assume that the 23' Hannah is as fast as the 25' Vertue or Folkboat (and it's almost certainly vastly slower) then under its full sail it's still dramatically slower and has a larger, more complicated rig than a good 36'er lolling around under mainsail...
    I’m interested in seeing responses to this as I must confess that I’m drawn to Gartside designs. Is the comparison being made to GRP 36 footers? Headroom is one thing currently giving me pause, though I’m considering a hull of at least 26’. Mr Gartside mentioned that the cabin roof could be given more rise to give more headroom and coldmolded to eliminate beams. The difficulty of carrying a dinghy is another issue to me. Any comments welcome. Thanks.
    Last edited by chollapete; 10-12-2020 at 04:18 PM.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,265

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by chollapete View Post
    I’m interested in seeing responses to this as I must confess that I’m drawn to Gartside designs. Is the comparison being made to GRP 36 footers? Headroom is one thing currently giving me pause, though I’m considering a hull of at least 26’. Mr Gartside mentioned that the cabin roof could be given more rise to give more headroom and coldmolded to eliminate beams. The difficulty of carrying a dinghy is another issue to me. Any comments welcome. Thanks.
    Most of the 36 footers I was using as a comparison (because they are similar in weight) are GRP, but some of them are cold moulded (and some of those were lighter) . I even know of some ferro 36 footers that were just 20% heavier than Hannah! All of the boats I was using as comparisons are fully fitted offshore boats.

    The comparison with the Virtue, Wanderer II, SCOD etc also seems illuminating. The Hannah is shorter and considerably heavier. Does Gartside think that Giles and Nicholson under-built the Virtues and SCODs? If so, why? How many Virtues have had structural failings?

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    217

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Does Gartside think that Giles and Nicholson under-built the Virtues and SCODs? If so, why? How many Virtues have had structural failings?
    Send him an email and ask. SCODS suffered from steel floors rusting away, planking splines and mast fractures due to glue failure, and deck rot from using spruce. All of these can cause structural failing, and could also be avoided by using a different materials. The boat was built to a price.

    There is a certain amount of motion comfort given displacement on a certain length. I see little point suggesting that the boat could be a different size for the same displacemet, some people may have specific length restrictions, and may decide to get more space and comfort in "volume/weight", rather than length.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    1,253

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    I get Chris' point. I think I'd want double berth and standing headroom too somewhere and it's hard to look past a refurbishes good bluewater boat like a Contessa 32 or Sparkman She 34 etc. The specified displacement on the Gartside will be designed displacement in cruising spec.

    The steel strap floors on the wood Vertues have corroded away. Causing several to sink recently. That's after 40-50 years mind, so it's not unexpected. Bronze floors are still the gold standard I guess. The swap post war to steamed frames (to reduce hull weight/ increase ballast ratio) has shown them to be less durable than a heavily framed futtocks of the working boats that preceeded it.

    That shows that an 'old' blue water design, isn't necessarily bluewater capable after 40-50 years. A 20k 50 year classic old grp boat might need osmosis treating, the mast very carefully checking for cracks, new engine, keel bolts drawing, rigging, winches, upholstery, headlining etc to get it up to snuff.

    If you prefer a new boat from the start, and lets face it, it's all a folly and if you assume it costs by the ton, your looking at a defined weight. If you're considering blue water, and you know you will be crossing continental shelves without full control of the weather at your arrival, you're then looking at a designed ballast ratio that will only allow a set maximum length with the remaining half of the weight. Your then choosing limited beam to length ratio to maximise inverted instability. Regarding rig there's alot to be said for the mast head rig, but it's relatively weak planform off wind. A gaff rig for offwind tradewind work has a more than reasonable argument if you object to spinnakers and have an eye to the traditional. At the point you might be heaving too, a short mast with a lowered topsail would seem like a great idea. While your building it, a shroudless wooden mast is going to be alot cheaper than a tall bermadan extrusion from Selden.

    You can make a boat longer for a given weight but it will cost ballast ratio without extending the draft beyond acceptable. You can make a boat wider (and stiffer) but that can reduce motion comfort and increases inverted stability. A wide fat aft stern provides a big double quater berth and speed but less it's less comfortable with assymetric waterplane and it's more prone to down wave surfing. You might not prefer that down wind tradewind surfing at night, alone on deck and be doing everthing you can to stop it. The lack of double cabin, in the ends of the boat where motion comfort is worst, or even any double cabin at all, might be a compromise accepted if at least the off watch sleeper is central low in the saloon at the center of pitch. That's the best berth in the house, and why it's the pilot(s) berth.

    To get everything you might want costs tonnage and money not forgetting the initial building space then subsequent moorage and cranage fees. This is also putting aside the sheer aesthetic of it all. What do you want to look at? What motivates you to keep it bristol fashion? What do you want to own? The reverberations of history run deep - a Cornishman will associate with a different shape to a Scotsman. Someone reading the Pardey's books at a young age might simply choose to please himself with something similar when it becomes affordable. It is about 'plans and dreams': if it was about Antigua we'd just fly there. No sailing boat is fast by any measure. Most move slightly above some slightly below walking pace depending on the weather. Light air speed will be determined by it's propulsive ability (SA and planform) minus it's wetted area drag. I wouldn't bet on anything too quickly. As with much of boat design it all depends.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 10-14-2020 at 05:13 AM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    glasgow, scotland
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    the wood working skills arent the problem i have built a smaller wooden boat and my dad is a wooden boat builder.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    glasgow, scotland
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    I will probably go with the 20ft yawl from george whisstock

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    3,608

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Design #123? Nice little boat, though I still think even the three berth edition is going to be cramped. When does the building start?
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    New Orleans, LA, USA
    Posts
    111

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    @Edward Pearson

    Thanks for writing that out.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    glasgow, scotland
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    the building would probably start in 1 year. I will change the layout. thanks for wrighting what out?
    Last edited by dave2700; 10-14-2020 at 01:06 PM.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,265

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    I get Chris' point. I think I'd want double berth and standing headroom too somewhere and it's hard to look past a refurbishes good bluewater boat like a Contessa 32 or Sparkman She 34 etc. The specified displacement on the Gartside will be designed displacement in cruising spec.

    The steel strap floors on the wood Vertues have corroded away. Causing several to sink recently. That's after 40-50 years mind, so it's not unexpected. Bronze floors are still the gold standard I guess. The swap post war to steamed frames (to reduce hull weight/ increase ballast ratio) has shown them to be less durable than a heavily framed futtocks of the working boats that preceeded it.

    That shows that an 'old' blue water design, isn't necessarily bluewater capable after 40-50 years. A 20k 50 year classic old grp boat might need osmosis treating, the mast very carefully checking for cracks, new engine, keel bolts drawing, rigging, winches, upholstery, headlining etc to get it up to snuff.

    If you prefer a new boat from the start, and lets face it, it's all a folly and if you assume it costs by the ton, your looking at a defined weight. If you're considering blue water, and you know you will be crossing continental shelves without full control of the weather at your arrival, you're then looking at a designed ballast ratio that will only allow a set maximum length with the remaining half of the weight. Your then choosing limited beam to length ratio to maximise inverted instability. Regarding rig there's alot to be said for the mast head rig, but it's relatively weak planform off wind. A gaff rig for offwind tradewind work has a more than reasonable argument if you object to spinnakers and have an eye to the traditional. At the point you might be heaving too, a short mast with a lowered topsail would seem like a great idea. While your building it, a shroudless wooden mast is going to be alot cheaper than a tall bermadan extrusion from Selden.

    You can make a boat longer for a given weight but it will cost ballast ratio without extending the draft beyond acceptable. You can make a boat wider (and stiffer) but that can reduce motion comfort and increases inverted stability. A wide fat aft stern provides a big double quater berth and speed but less it's less comfortable with assymetric waterplane and it's more prone to down wave surfing. You might not prefer that down wind tradewind surfing at night, alone on deck and be doing everthing you can to stop it. The lack of double cabin, in the ends of the boat where motion comfort is worst, or even any double cabin at all, might be a compromise accepted if at least the off watch sleeper is central low in the saloon at the center of pitch. That's the best berth in the house, and why it's the pilot(s) berth.

    To get everything you might want costs tonnage and money not forgetting the initial building space then subsequent moorage and cranage fees. This is also putting aside the sheer aesthetic of it all. What do you want to look at? What motivates you to keep it bristol fashion? What do you want to own? The reverberations of history run deep - a Cornishman will associate with a different shape to a Scotsman. Someone reading the Pardey's books at a young age might simply choose to please himself with something similar when it becomes affordable. It is about 'plans and dreams': if it was about Antigua we'd just fly there. No sailing boat is fast by any measure. Most move slightly above some slightly below walking pace depending on the weather. Light air speed will be determined by it's propulsive ability (SA and planform) minus it's wetted area drag. I wouldn't bet on anything too quickly. As with much of boat design it all depends.
    I completely agree with much of what you say, Edward, especially about the emotional and aesthetic side.

    The issues with SCODs are, as you say, specific issues of detailed construction and cost decisions. They don't appear to indicate that a boat significantly lighter than the Hannah is inherently too lightly constructed even by "traditional" consensus, which was the thrust of my comment or query.

    What I still can't really understand is the fact that as you say, many like a ballast ratio of about 50% and yet here's a boat with significantly less than that, apparently because the scantlings are so heavy. I just can't really see why such heavy scantlings are considered necessary or optimum.

    Where we will have to differ is on the question of length affecting ballast ratio. Ballast ratio is of course dependent on displacement mass and ballast mass, and that displacement can be drawn out into a longer shape without affecting ballast ratio per se, of course. The greater skin area will require a reduction in structural weight per metre of skin area, of course, but that gets back to my query of why Gartside apparently feels that such an extremely heavy structure is optimum. She seems to be heavier than a Falmouth Quay Punt or an Itchen Ferry, or most Lyle Hess design.

    As far as motion goes, my understanding from reading NAs like DK Brown is that studies show that pitching is the major cause of seasickness, and that seasickness tends to reduce strongly as length increases and as distance from the bow increases. My wife is a neuroscientist who works in motion perception. Some of her students and co-workers do things like riding the NASA "vomit comet" while carrying out experiments in motion perception, or making people sick with motion in labs. One of the things they note is that (1) seasickness' effects are highly variable from person to person and (2) if someone thinks they are likely to become sick, they are much more likely to do so. It indicates that if people believe they will find a certain type's motion more comfortable, the belief itself will be self fulfilling. Similarly, I find quite a few heavy/traditional hulls to have a very objectionable motion for my own personal preference, with their slow but high amplitude motion far less comfortable personally than the faster but smaller range pitch of other styles. Such factors seem to indicate that it's hard to make hard and fast judgements about heavier boats being more comfortable, although I know you didn't state that.
    Last edited by Chris249; 10-15-2020 at 06:52 AM.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,265

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Flobart View Post
    Send him an email and ask. SCODS suffered from steel floors rusting away, planking splines and mast fractures due to glue failure, and deck rot from using spruce. All of these can cause structural failing, and could also be avoided by using a different materials. The boat was built to a price.

    There is a certain amount of motion comfort given displacement on a certain length. I see little point suggesting that the boat could be a different size for the same displacemet, some people may have specific length restrictions, and may decide to get more space and comfort in "volume/weight", rather than length.
    I don't want to bother the designer since I'm not a customer. I raised the question to get other people's views. For example, you gave me new information about SCOD construction.

    Yes, some people may have certain preferences or restrictions and that's fine but surely it's reasonable to discuss these issues in order to understand and highlight the tradeoffs?

    Of interest, I see that the fairly similar Lyle Hess Serafynn type attracted a lot of criticism here when compared to the Vertue in an old thread, so I'm very far from the first WBFer who has been unable to see the general objective advantages of these extremely short and heavy craft.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    217

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    .

    Yes, some people may have certain preferences or restrictions and that's fine but surely it's reasonable to discuss these issues in order to understand and highlight the tradeoffs?

    Of interest, I see that the fairly similar Lyle Hess Serafynn type attracted a lot of criticism here when compared to the Vertue in an old thread, so I'm very far from the first WBFer who has been unable to see the general objective advantages of these extremely short and heavy craft.
    Absolutely, though its often a case where a member asks about a design and specifies a max length, and a few posts later someone will be proffering a design 10ft longer; yes there may be good reason for doing so, but often it seems to ignore the original request.

    "objective advantage", is most likely going to be very subjective. Anyone who may have beaten there way North across Biscay from Spain in the later autumn and faced snotty weather in the process may have considered a heavy craft to have been more comfortable (relatively), than doing the same in a J24 for days on end. High ballast ratio rather than form stabilty can help a boat carry full sail for longer. More importantly on a small cruiser, as stores are loaded, the ballast ratio remains higher than a boat that might have 35% ballast ratio before its even taken onboard stores, so some people will look at that as a positive, knowing that if required, they can hold onto sail, when others cant, and so keep plugging to windward.

    No ideal boat for all. I was surprised just how much more internal volume there is on a Vertue 2 over say a Marieholms Folkboat, and i would rather take either offshore than a J24; thats not to say a J24 is not capable, just that i know which one "for me" is more comfortable to operate and be aboard at sea. YMMV.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    BEJUMA,CARABOBO,VENEZUELA
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    Your decision depend of the days of your trip and experience as navigator. The jola is a good option to think about it.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    20,979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    I get Chris' point. I think I'd want double berth and standing headroom too somewhere and it's hard to look past a refurbishes good bluewater boat like a Contessa 32 or Sparkman She 34 etc. The specified displacement on the Gartside will be designed displacement in cruising spec.

    The steel strap floors on the wood Vertues have corroded away. Causing several to sink recently. That's after 40-50 years mind, so it's not unexpected. Bronze floors are still the gold standard I guess. The swap post war to steamed frames (to reduce hull weight/ increase ballast ratio) has shown them to be less durable than a heavily framed futtocks of the working boats that preceeded it.

    That shows that an 'old' blue water design, isn't necessarily bluewater capable after 40-50 years. A 20k 50 year classic old grp boat might need osmosis treating, the mast very carefully checking for cracks, new engine, keel bolts drawing, rigging, winches, upholstery, headlining etc to get it up to snuff.

    If you prefer a new boat from the start, and lets face it, it's all a folly and if you assume it costs by the ton, your looking at a defined weight. If you're considering blue water, and you know you will be crossing continental shelves without full control of the weather at your arrival, you're then looking at a designed ballast ratio that will only allow a set maximum length with the remaining half of the weight. Your then choosing limited beam to length ratio to maximise inverted instability. Regarding rig there's alot to be said for the mast head rig, but it's relatively weak planform off wind. A gaff rig for offwind tradewind work has a more than reasonable argument if you object to spinnakers and have an eye to the traditional. At the point you might be heaving too, a short mast with a lowered topsail would seem like a great idea. While your building it, a shroudless wooden mast is going to be alot cheaper than a tall bermadan extrusion from Selden.

    You can make a boat longer for a given weight but it will cost ballast ratio without extending the draft beyond acceptable. You can make a boat wider (and stiffer) but that can reduce motion comfort and increases inverted stability. A wide fat aft stern provides a big double quater berth and speed but less it's less comfortable with assymetric waterplane and it's more prone to down wave surfing. You might not prefer that down wind tradewind surfing at night, alone on deck and be doing everthing you can to stop it. The lack of double cabin, in the ends of the boat where motion comfort is worst, or even any double cabin at all, might be a compromise accepted if at least the off watch sleeper is central low in the saloon at the center of pitch. That's the best berth in the house, and why it's the pilot(s) berth.

    To get everything you might want costs tonnage and money not forgetting the initial building space then subsequent moorage and cranage fees. This is also putting aside the sheer aesthetic of it all. What do you want to look at? What motivates you to keep it bristol fashion? What do you want to own? The reverberations of history run deep - a Cornishman will associate with a different shape to a Scotsman. Someone reading the Pardey's books at a young age might simply choose to please himself with something similar when it becomes affordable. It is about 'plans and dreams': if it was about Antigua we'd just fly there. No sailing boat is fast by any measure. Most move slightly above some slightly below walking pace depending on the weather. Light air speed will be determined by it's propulsive ability (SA and planform) minus it's wetted area drag. I wouldn't bet on anything too quickly. As with much of boat design it all depends.


    Fantastic post. Thank you, Edward.

    Kevin


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Guerilla Bay, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    196

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    I used to sail on the West coast of Scotland and one time sailed out to Lewis on a 32' yacht in a force 6 - personally I would not attempt anything other than cruising in & around the lochs of the west coast in a smallish boat - that Minch is very treachorous and I would advise you to stay away from the Hebrides in a 20 footer.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    181

    Default Re: choosing a design and other questions

    My recommendation would be to have a very good long think about what you want to do. Building a carvel sailing cruiser, even a small one is a huge undertaking and no matter what any designer says regarding build times you can double, treble or quadruple that even if you have past experience. It will also cost a small fortune. That said it is a hugely satisfying and fun experience, dont get me wrong I'm not trying to put you off but be realistic.
    Do you have a job? social life? Heaven forbid, want to go sailing? if you do its going to take you a very long time.
    Don't ask me how I know
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...g-Gartside-163

    If I were to start again I might look at using an old GRP hull as this guy below is doing with great results
    https://www.alchemy-marine.com/
    There are lots of options out there so dont rush in.
    Good luck,
    Duncan.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •