Ross Lillistone Flint and "Fleet" questions

[rgleason]

I really like the Flint or Fleet, it is lightweight and efficient, but there are some aspects of these two designs that may not fit our needs.
https://smallboatsmonthly.com/article/flint/
https://www.duckworks.com/product-p/ross-flint-id.htm

Looking at this video, I could see the freeboard problem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQUg-RGOFio

It looks to me like there is not enough freeboard for our use and location, so I was trying to determine what the freeboard at the oarlocks is to help determine if this design is appropriate.

On the other hand, this video shows the sailing lug version doing quite well in a chop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BApMbpX5RxE

Our use is taking two people with gear and supplies for a week to a mooring, and transfer to the larger sailboat, or 4 adults with minimal gear to go daysailing. The distance is about 2-3 miles down a river with wind against current (4knots). There can be a very wet chop in these waters. I would also like to build an assist post and step, for transferring up the ladder to the sailboat.

I like the cartop lightness, simple design and efficiency which will fit our 3.3 hp Mercury or if I built the Fleet, our 8hp Nissan. I think it might also be suitable for towing long distances (our sailboat is just 32' and without adequate room to put a dinghy on the deck). Being able to row and sail is an added plus.

Perhaps I can add more freeboard (changing the rowing characteristics) if I build this? Or is there a similar design that would be better suited to our use?

[Ross Lillistone]

The freeboard of Flint at the lowest point near the oarlocks is 256mm/10-1/16" with the boat loaded to the DWL. Phil Bolger pointed out in print that Bounty's launch had 7-1/2" of freeboard when Bligh and his men set off on a 4000 mile journey across the Pacific after the mutiny. At the DWL drawn on the plans the heel of the transon is just kissing the water, and in that condition the displacement is 422lbs/192kg. However, if you load her up enough to set her just one inch deeper in the water the displacement increases to 583lbs/265kg.

I would not recommend day-sailing with four adults and gear.

Flint is a delight to row and sail - Fleet on the other hand is optimised for use with something between 4hp and 8hp and although she can be rowed quite well, that is not what she was designed to do primarily. Raising freeboard affects the rowing geometry of these boats, increases weight, and importantly, increases windage. Because of the carefully calculated nesting of components on the plywood being altered by even a slight increase in freeboard, you would increase plywood usage between one and two sheets.

Ross Lillistone

[rgleason]

Ross, Thank you for your response. When I add up our typical load (2 heavy people + gear + food + 4hp outboard) to get to the boat 2-3 miles down the river in a chop, it is between 550-600lbs, I think, so the Flint would have about 9 1/16" freeboard with our primary use. That is very helpful

[Matt young]

For the general record, as the Flints general performance in choppy rough conditions. I have been out a couple of times in company with Roger who wrote the Small Boats Monthly article above. One time in a multi day beach camping trip on the TX coast. Roger had the Flint loaded up with camping gear sailing solo. The boat handled beautifully in rather choppy bay conditions and through a very boisterous and breaking waves narrow entrance into the ICW. This entrance was tossing everyone about, a Mikesboat and I was in a Scamp. So the boat can handle it, great design, and Roger knows what he is doing. He has installed an automatic bailer though.

[rgleason]

Matt, I have seen that video and I believe it is linked to above. These kinds of things are very subjective. It's like the difference between a sailfish, a sunfish, a laser, a 420, a viper, or an ensign, for example. The video does help to understand the question. The Flint sails well in a chop, the question for us, when getting to the boat, is are we ready to get some water inboard on us or our gear with 4 knts of outgoing current against a good wind, during early spring and late fall? How wet are we willing to get then and how well are we prepared and how carefully stowed is our gear?

[seasnail]

I built a Flint and used in the San Francisco Bay, which gets pretty choppy sometimes. With a couple of big guys (~400lbs total) I always felt safe and the boat was very dry, but that was rowing, not under power. I don't think I'd feel comfortable with four people unless it was very calm. You can see in this video with two adult men and a couple of kids the boat sits fairly low in the water:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rL6zRh_SHhs

If you build fleet and put a larger outboard on it it's going to sit even lower. You probably need something more like 16x5 to be suitable for the task, and it will need to be built extremely lightly so you can get it on your roof. I'm not sure if such a boat exists.

[seasnail]

Something like this would be better, more freeboard, more load carrying ability.

https://hvartial.kapsi.fi/wpunt/wpunt.htm

Design displacement is 660lbs vs 455 for flint. The flat bottom and punt bow also give it a lot more stability for transferring on to a moored sailboat.

Like Flint it only uses four sheets of plywood, but two of those are 3/8ths instead of 1/4, so about 20lbs extra weight in raw plywood. Still, you could probably get it on a car with 2 or more people, although it might not be fun. Best to use light plywood.

The hullform is also optimized for displacement speeds, so should be pretty good for rowing.

[seasnail]

Also check out flo-mo's tweak and cosmo, which are flint inspired but larger. You'd have to ask for drawings, not sure if he'd give them out. Both are planing type hulls, so suboptimal for rowing. Both also have lower freeboard than the fishing punt, using 1/3rd sheet plywood instead of 1/2 for the sides.

http://flo-mo.weebly.com/three-sheet-boats.html

[rgleason]

I really like the Bike tow-able G10 First Mate and sailing SF bay!

Cosmo 500 (16'-5" x 49" waterline beam x 19" midship depth) by Flo-Mo looks like it answers our needs better.
Fishing Punt 15'-8" Using the lighter construction 3/8" bottom and 1/4" sides might also answer our needs.

These concepts are worth considering, considering our particular needs, IE:
1. 2 heavy adults + gear + motor for 1 week, to moored sailboat, in 4knt river current with 10-20 knots against.
2. 4 adults + motor for picnic or daytrip.

Thank you. I understand that the result is a heavier boat which is no longer a car topper, and a light trailer may be necessary.
I am disappointed that the Flint or Fleet probably will not be suitable for us, because I really like the light weight, sailing and rowing, but that is the reality. Factors such as size and weight are important in frequency and ease of use, but I am afraid that comfort needs are a little more important for our primary use.

I had been considering two other boats which are not really car toppers either.


Candlefish 13 by Sam Devlin

https://devlinboat.com/candlefish-13/

Length 13 ft. – 4 in.
Beam 4 ft. – 11 in.
Draft 4.5 in.
Displacement 445 lbs.
Dry Weight 165 lbs.
Max power: 8-20 hp

Almaguin 400

http://marine.marsh-design.com/content/almaguin-400
The Almaguin 400 is just about the largest boat that can be comfortably car-topped (although a trailer is preferable), and it'll fit (barely) in the bed of a full-size pickup with the tailgate down. Appropriate engines are 20” shaft outboards from 7 to 30 hp (20 hp if tiller steered), the middle of that range being generally ideal. Plans $50

Length overall: 4 m 13.13'
Length waterline: 3 m 9.84'
Weight: 100kg (220lb)
Displacement light-ship: 100 kg - 220 lbs
Displacement at design load: 480 kg - 1058 lbs
Beam overall: 1.0 m 3.28' (but the drawings show 1419 (or 1.419)= 4.65' including the skirt)
Wetted surface: 2 m²
Power typical: 10 kW 7- 20 hp (up to 30 hp with remote steering)
Length/beam: 3
Bottom loading: 190 kg/m²

[seasnail]

The Devlin plan looks nice but be aware the load mentioned is gear in the bottom of the boat. 700 lbs of moose in the bilge has a much lower CG than 700lbs of passengers, and is relative more stable. You might want to email Devlin and see what they think.

In the powerboat vein you might also consider a diablo:

https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07...ablo/index.htm

Also, I missed the sailing part of your original prompt. Why not build a larger sailing skiff? You give up a lot of speed under power, but you get good rowing and sailing ability. Here's a good example of a sailboat suitable for your application:

http://www.salmoboats.com/projekty-l...achtow/jacht1/

[rgleason]

Yes, I had looked at Diablo. It seemed bigger than I wanted to tow behind a 32' sailboat (but probably not that often if what I build is this big), however it is not that much bigger than Candlefish 13 or Almaquin 400. I have a 3.3 Mercury and an 8 hp Nissan that I was considering using. The 3.3 hp would have been good for the Flint/Fleet, is just 38lbs and easy to lift onto the sailboat before towing. I liked the row/sail aspect of the Flint/Fleet too. I guess I have some conflicting requirements (staying dry and load carrying)

"Bolger’s 15’ Diablo... met all my criteria of being big enough for 4, small enough to be cheap, and fast enough with my existing 15hp Yamaha outboard."

Salmo 15-s Lugger Translated to English
Technical data
Total length - 4.66 m (15.2')
Total width - 1.63 m (5.34')
Draft - 0.18 / 0.9 m
Lugger ket sails - 9.5 m2
Displacement up to KLW - 0.32 t
Displacement chambers - 0.29 m3
Internal ballast - 40 - 80 kg - 0.29 m3
Crew - 1-4 people

Looks like it would be comfortable for 4 people, has high freeboard, may need some water ballast and would be a good raider. It would probably tow better than the Diablo.
I believe Ross has some very nice sail/row designs that are about this size too.

[seasnail]

Yes, I had looked at Diablo. It seemed bigger than I wanted to tow behind a 32' sailboat (but probably not that often if what I build is this big), however it is not that much bigger than Candlefish 13 or Almaquin 400. I have a 3.3 Mercury and an 8 hp Nissan that I was considering using. The 3.3 hp would have been good for the Flint/Fleet, is just 38lbs and easy to lift onto the sailboat before towing. I liked the row/sail aspect of the Flint/Fleet too. I guess I have some conflicting requirements (staying dry and load carrying)

"Bolger’s 15’ Diablo... met all my criteria of being big enough for 4, small enough to be cheap, and fast enough with my existing 15hp Yamaha outboard."

Salmo 15-s Lugger Translated to English
Technical data
Total length - 4.66 m (15.2')
Total width - 1.63 m (5.34')
Draft - 0.18 / 0.9 m
Lugger ket sails - 9.5 m2
Displacement up to KLW - 0.32 t
Displacement chambers - 0.29 m3
Internal ballast - 40 - 80 kg - 0.29 m3
Crew - 1-4 people

Looks like it would be comfortable for 4 people, has high freeboard, may need some water ballast and would be a good raider. It would probably tow better than the Diablo.
I believe Ross has some very nice sail/row designs that are about this size too.

I think it's not just an issue of getting wet, but also safety. There is also the issue of passengers feeling safe.

Have you considered leaving the boat at the mooring instead of towing?

[seasnail]

Forgot to mention the Salmo requires water ballast as you guessed. Up to 4 passengers plus water ballast for sailing, or 5 for rowing. One nice thing about Salmo is they sell relatively inexpensive CNC cut files so you can knock out a boat pretty fast if you have access to a CNC router.

[rgleason]

Yes, for Day Sailing in the bigger boat we would leave it at the mooring. I can take an older Avon rollup inflatable tied down on the bow, but normally we have towed the inflatable RIB.

Phoenix III by Ross is a pretty nice design. 15'-1 1/2" x 4'-9" Weight 132 lbs, Displacement 595 lbs Sail Area 104 sf
or if that is not big enough for 4 people, perhaps Periwinkle these are more complicated lapstrake construction, with not quite as much freeboard or windage as Salmo.

I notice that both Phoenix III and First Mate can hold 3 adults. I could simply reduce the requirement for 4 adults, but that would preclude simple day sailing with 2 couples for a beach picnic.

[seasnail]

Yes, for Day Sailing in the bigger boat we would leave it at the mooring. I can take an older Avon rollup inflatable tied down on the bow, but normally we have towed the inflatable RIB.

Phoenix III by Ross is a pretty nice design. 15'-1 1/2" x 4'-9" Weight 132 lbs, Displacement 595 lbs Sail Area 104 sf
or if that is not big enough for 4 people, perhaps Periwinkle these are more complicated lapstrake construction, with not quite as much freeboard or windage as Salmo.

I notice that both Phoenix III and First Mate can hold 3 adults. I could simply reduce the requirement for 4 adults, but that would preclude simple day sailing with 2 couples for a beach picnic.

Our local sailing club used to have Lido 14s and I've been out on those with up to four people, usually for instruction or open house. You'd have 3 people on the windward bench and one person leeward, and two people would switch sides when tacking. It's not too comfortable, but it works, even on the San Francisco bay. For four adults I wouldn't want anything smaller, and I would strongly prefer something larger.

If you look at the Catalina site they recommend 1-2 adults for the Catalina 14.2, which is 6 feet wide like the Lido. For the C16.5, which is 7 feet wide, they recommend 1-4 adults. The Phoenix III is narrower and has less freeboard than the boats listed above, and I suspect would not be great with 4 people on board. That being said it looks like a fantastic boat for 1-2 people and I wish I was lucky enough to own one.

[rgleason]

Examples of Dinghies with Number of Crew and a comprehensive list of dinghies.

http://www.oughtredboats.com/

Shearwater

3.61 m - 11' 10"
1.50 m - 4' 11"
8.55 sq m - 92.00 sqf
86.00 kg - 189 lbs
250 hours
Crew 2

Gannet

4.40 m - 14' 5"
1.73 m - 5' 8"
0.20 m - 8"
10.96 sq m - 117.93 sqf
118.00 kg - 260 lbs
310 hours
Crew 4


Fulmar

5.08 m - 16' 7"
1.80 m - 5' 10"
0.21 m - 8"
14.87 sq m - 160.00 sqf
135.00 kg - 297 lbs
400 hours
Crew 6


List of Rowboats http://www.tackingoutrigger.com/rowboat3.html

[rgleason]

A Catalina 14-2 with 6'-2" beam 340lb is not really under consideration. http://www.catalinayachts.com/sport-series/14-2/

Sam Devlin has not responded, but I believe Candlefish 13' or Almaquin 400 would be perfectly fine for 4 adults and would provide greater splash protection than an inflatable in a bad chop (current against wind). In any case, additional dodger protection would be appropriate. Transition to the bigger boat will be easier than the inflatable because of the higher seat + an additional step + a stabilizing post.

The M.B.Marsh (Almaquin 400) website is failing and the contact page does not work. So it appears that M.B. Marsh is no longer in business or has other interests, because plans are no longer available, even though I liked the sections better with the two step 7 degree V and 26 degree V. That leaves Candlefish 13' as the choice.