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Thread: Building the CoPogy 18

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    I'll definitely cover each seam with tape before covering the entire hull with glass. Tad calls for tape backers, doubled on all the corners, as well as 6 oz glass over all, along with a couple more layers at the bottom of the stem and the centreboard case bottom corners.

    I haven't yet decided on what width of tape the main strake corners need. You ask about 4" tape. What's your rationale for tape that wide? I'm thinking at this point two narrower strips but overlapped by, say, an inch, right at the corners. That would give me double at the corners but taper the strength/stress out more gradually to where there is only the single layer of glass.
    Hi Alex,

    I've built a couple of stitch and tape kayaks in my time, if that's any qualification, and I would agree with you there. I would smooth off the butt joins in the lower strakes quite well, and tape them on both sides, and fillet the upper laps quite generously and let the main sheathing cover them, and tape the insides. Dynel cloth takes the harder curves better than fibreglass does. I used that on my Sooty Tern Trondra. Anyway, do what Tad says.

    The hull is a quicker one to build than Kotik's was. It will look bigger when you have turned it over. Then you have to fill it up with all the other stuff. (Just to be encouraging!)

    Cheers.
    Ian
    Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    ...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    I'll definitely cover each seam with tape before covering the entire hull with glass. Tad calls for tape backers, doubled on all the corners, as well as 6 oz glass over all, along with a couple more layers at the bottom of the stem and the centreboard case bottom corners.

    I haven't yet decided on what width of tape the main strake corners need. You ask about 4" tape. What's your rationale for tape that wide? I'm thinking at this point two narrower strips but overlapped by, say, an inch, right at the corners. That would give me double at the corners but taper the strength/stress out more gradually to where there is only the single layer of glass.
    You got me to thinking, so I went and found my copy of Sam Devlin's book on stitch and glue boatbuilding. He uses three layers of tape on the interior joints, going from small to large. On the exterior he covers each plywood panel with a separate piece of cloth which over laps the next panel by four inches so that the joints are covered with two layers of cloth. Of course, the glass must be faired into the adjoining panel before laying on the next layer.
    I would recommend his book if you haven't done a lot of fiberglass work. I believe I got it from WoodenBoat Store.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    You got me to thinking, so I went and found my copy of Sam Devlin's book on stitch and glue boatbuilding. He uses three layers of tape on the interior joints, going from small to large. On the exterior he covers each plywood panel with a separate piece of cloth which over laps the next panel by four inches so that the joints are covered with two layers of cloth. Of course, the glass must be faired into the adjoining panel before laying on the next layer.
    I would recommend his book if you haven't done a lot of fiberglass work. I believe I got it from WoodenBoat Store.
    Thanks Rich. I might have his book around somewhere. I have other sources, too. I'll dig into them and figure out an appropriate schedule. In the interior I am definitely going to fillet the joints before taping them, which will add considerable strength.
    I built a number of stitch and tape kayaks years ago and used much less tape, but they were much smaller boats.
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
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  4. #144
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by IanMilne View Post
    Hi Alex,

    I've built a couple of stitch and tape kayaks in my time, if that's any qualification, and I would agree with you there. I would smooth off the butt joins in the lower strakes quite well, and tape them on both sides, and fillet the upper laps quite generously and let the main sheathing cover them, and tape the insides. Dynel cloth takes the harder curves better than fibreglass does. I used that on my Sooty Tern Trondra. Anyway, do what Tad says.

    The hull is a quicker one to build than Kotik's was. It will look bigger when you have turned it over. Then you have to fill it up with all the other stuff. (Just to be encouraging!)

    Cheers.
    Ian
    Ian, the strakes are joined by scarfs to make up the length, although the excess epoxy hasn't been totally cleaned up and smoothed yet, but you're reading my mind - I have been thinking about taping the joints on the lower strakes as a belt-and-suspenders thing.
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Ive pretty much finished filling the chine joints and fairing them, along with the other spots that needed fairing, in advance of taping the outside of the joints. Not terribly impressive images for all the work so far but here is what it looks like at the transom.


    Here is another shot showing the fillet I applied to the lap joint between the top strake and the next one down.

    I am grateful to Pablo Besser for showing us the slick spatulas that he used for doing fillets. I bought same set and used the smallest one on this fillet. You can see what a smooth job results. This is without sanding. Not sure if I will need to do any sanding, except perhaps to rough it up a little when I apply the hull cloth.

    Here is some of the other fairing that was required. Levelling the scarf joint where it wasnt as smooth as I would have liked.


    And I think I had managed to make some shallow gouge marks in some places on the second strake when I was taking off the excess epoxy on the joint with my Shinto rasp, and being a little careless. Needed a little bit of filling.


    Just about ready for taping. The pencil marks show where the tape edges will go - in two applications. Narrow first (two 2" wide strips overlapping an inch) then wider one (4").
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    If you smooth the fillets with alchohol, gloved finger and/or a brush, at just the right time, virtually no fairing or sanding. Liberal use of alchohal, including keeping the fillet sticks clean and wet. Don't be stingy easing the outboard corners - but I'm sure you knew that.
    Looking good
    E

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    I bought some of those spatula thingies also. They worked great!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Those look super! I'm thinking I'll be investing on some spatulas

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    They are indeed remarkably smooth and uniform.

  10. #150
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Its a toss up - fillets or sanding? Looks like you got the fillets under control but....
    well done Alex

    does anyone have the link for those spatulas?

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    I use an old knife with a round end, for filleting. I can vary the curve of the fillet by tilting the blade to different angles. The fillets always get coated with clear resin at some stage or other.
    Yes, looking good, Alex.
    Ian
    Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    ...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    It’s a toss up - fillets or sanding? Looks like you got the fillets under control but....
    well done Alex

    does anyone have the link for those spatulas?
    I don't think it's a toss up.
    Avoid having to fair or smooth fillets by sanding.
    Get it right with the fillet sticks to begin with. The plastic sticks are great, but you can make a fillet stick out of any thin piece of wood - such as paint stir sticks, to whatever size you need. On one project several sizes might be warrented. Clean up excess with a crisp putty knife or squeegee. Sooth it all with alchohol. There are plenty of good illustrarions for these techniques, gougeon, CLC etc.

    To be honest, no offence Alex, some of the filleting looks a little scant - depending on what weight, if anything, you are sheathing with. You might want one more pass in some areas.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    To be honest, no offence Alex, some of the filleting looks a little scant - depending on what weight, if anything, you are sheathing with. You might want one more pass in some areas.
    Eric, there is only one fillet on the outside of the hull at the lap joint between the top strake and the next strake down. The strength in that joint is in the glued lap, which averages about an inch in width. I just put the fillet on it so that there wouldn't be a sharp right-angle transition for the 6 oz fibrglass sheathing when I go to apply it. I'll ease the sharp outside corner of the lap a little bit as well.

    The rest of the boat is really stitch and glue. The glue that is in the joints right now is basically just to hold the joints together until I apply tape on the outside - I'm planning 3 X 6 oz layers at the join plus the hull sheathing, and a widely taped fillet (another 3 layers, also 6 oz) on the inside of the joints after I flip the hull.
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post

    does anyone have the link for those spatulas?
    Here is the link, Andrew:
    https://www.amazon.com/-/es/dp/B0752...roduct_details
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Eric, there is only one fillet on the outside of the hull at the lap joint between the top strake and the next strake down. The strength in that joint is in the glued lap, which averages about an inch in width. I just put the fillet on it so that there wouldn't be a sharp right-angle transition for the 6 oz fibrglass sheathing when I go to apply it. I'll ease the sharp outside corner of the lap a little bit as well.

    The rest of the boat is really stitch and glue. The glue that is in the joints right now is basically just to hold the joints together until I apply tape on the outside - I'm planning 3 X 6 oz layers at the join plus the hull sheathing, and a widely taped fillet (another 3 layers, also 6 oz) on the inside of the joints after I flip the hull.
    Yessir, whatever makes the 6 oz happy!
    I did a custom stitch and glue wherry several years ago. The designer called for an elaborate overlapping glass scheme, to build up layers at panel (strake) joints but keep overall weight down. It was interesting. He even specified that I cut diagonal strips of cloth for taping seams rather than conventional tape. That was a PITA.

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Thanks Alex. Somehow I got it to click over to English cos my Spanish is worse than my swearing

  17. #157
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    an elaborate overlapping glass scheme, to build up layers at panel (strake) joints but keep overall weight down.
    Eric, thats what I am trying to do well, maybe not the elaborate part, just additional layers at the chines that taper nicely into the main sheathing.
    Tad has emphasized several times the need to not overbuild this boat. It is always tempting to add a little more beef here and a little more thickness there, just in case. Pretty soon the weight of the boat has gone up by 10% or more. I am trying to resist that urge.
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Eric, that’s what I am trying to do – well, maybe not the elaborate part, just additional layers at the chines that taper nicely into the main sheathing.
    Tad has emphasized several times the need to not overbuild this boat. It is always tempting to add a little more beef here and a little more thickness there, just in case. Pretty soon the weight of the boat has gone up by 10% or more. I am trying to resist that urge.
    The designer of my little wherry project had similar concerns. Owner was hoping for a cartopper. Did not happen (I suggested softwoods for the solid lumber bits but the owner preferred mahogany, still might not have happened). Sheathing was 4 oz. The wherry had a wide bottom plank. As I recall, after taping seams, 1st application of cloth was over the bottom and lapped onto the garboard several inches. Second stage was sheathing the garboard and lapped back onto the bottom plank and onto the broad. Third stage was the remaining topsides lapped onto the broad. So the cloth was full length, but with these stages, overlapped at garboard/bottom and broad x 3. Something like that. I don't recall if both interior and exterior schedules were this complex but I remember the general sequence. Perhaps weight would have been reduced with vacumn bagging or peel ply.

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    I want to give a big shout-out to the folks at Off Center Harbor and Russell Brown for their series of “Mastering Epoxy” videos, showing how Russell does filleting and taping of stitch and glue joints. I’ve been building small boats using epoxy for a long time but there is always something you can learn.

    These techniques may not be new to a lot of people, but they are new to me and have made a big difference in the tidiness of the joints and greatly reduced the amount of post-glue-up sanding, so I thought it would be worth highlighting them.

    The specific techniques I want to highlight are, firstly, making tapes out of cloth rather than using pre-made tapes with a selvege edge. Not only can you make the exact width you want but by removing one or two longitudinal threads you get a tapered thickness edge.



    Secondly, the use of release fabric, or peel ply, ensures you get the glass stuck down evenly, any excess epoxy soaked up and a good transition from glass to underlying wood. Here is a picture of the release fabric over the second layer of tape. I realize I didn’t take any pictures of the first layer. Which is actually two 2-inch strips overlapped an inch at the join. This sketch will show what I mean:



    The second layer is wider, about 4”, with the release fabric about 6” wide.



    Here is a picture of how the join looks after the peel ply tape is pulled off the first two overlapping layers. Doesn’t show terribly clearly but the edge transition from glass tape to wood is very smooth – required almost no sanding.



    Next up is pictures of flipping the hull over, which happened today.
    Last edited by AJZimm; 03-17-2021 at 06:17 PM. Reason: incorrect number
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Thanks for the cheer-up, AJ.

  21. #161
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Brown View Post
    Thanks for the cheer-up, AJ.

    Credit where credit is due, Russell. Your demonstrations and explanations on the videos are clear and to the point. I’m glad you decided to share your tips. Not all professionals are so generous.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  22. #162
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Peel ply is amazing stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    I basically copied what McMullen, Yeadon and Hvalsoe use because it worked so well.

  23. #163
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Yesterday a friend of mine came over and helped me flip the hull over. We had to move the boat outside to do it and with a nice breeze and both of us keeping on opposite sides of the boat, we managed the physical distancing part pretty well, I think.
    I resurrected the lifting frames I had first made way back when I built Hornpipe, my Kurylko Alaska, and which I also used for Fire-Drake. I bolted the two frames together and went out and bought some new lumber for bracing them. It seems the lumber I had used for that purpose previously has all been used up on other miscellaneous projects. Was shocked at the price of the wood, even here where we cut down the trees and mill them into lumber.


    Here is where the heavy-duty strongback and casters supporting it really paid off. I thought it might be a challenge to haul the strongback + boat up the incline of the driveway outside the garage/shop, but it was very easy with one of us hauling on the line and the other pushing.
    I had removed all the supports that were attached to the bulkheads, except two bulkhead B forward and bulkhead F aft.


    You can also see the cable pullers I picked up on sale fastened to eyebolts in the stem and transom.
    I basically eyeballed where I thought the centre of gravity might be, in order to locate the transom hole and eyebolt. I used the existing bobstay attachment hole in the stem.

    So, remove the last screws holding down the supports, take up the strain on the cable-pullers, slide out the strongback, rotate the hull the eye bolts were left a little loose so they would rotate, and . . .


    . . . without too much fuss, over it went.
    I got the COG about right.
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  24. #164
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Very cool! I'm looking forward to seeing her upright

  25. #165
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Heres few more pictures from yesterday, post flipping, with the hull upright.

    Stern view:


    View from the starboard forward quarter looking at what will become the cabin area:


    Shot of me waving my hand to demonstrate to my buddy how much sitting headroom I think Ill have:
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  26. #166
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Congrats on a smooth roll over Alex. Will you be glassing inside and out?

  27. #167
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    Congrats on a smooth roll over Alex. Will you be glassing inside and out?
    Glassing outside. 6 ounce cloth recommended by Tad.

    The boat will need to be rolled over once more to accomplish that. Once that's done I also plan to paint the outside and roll it back upright one final time.
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  28. #168
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Congratulations, Alex. You're certainly making good progress.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    ...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  29. #169
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Very cool! Fast progress, Alex.

    Tom
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  30. #170
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Thanks Ian and Tom, but it really doesn't feel like I'm moving all that fast. I certainly could be putting in more hours a day on this. However, unlike the last boat, I have no deadline driving me, beyond trying to get the thing finished before advancing age and increasing decrepitude overtake my interest and ability to get out there and use it.
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  31. #171
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    had my heart episode 2 days ago.......12 hours of it......, but feeling great today . Sure would love to see your boat finished, sailing around Penrose State Park this summer....or next summer .
    Boat is looking great Alex. I am thinking about building small (13 feet) low HP motorboat.
    Torpedo1.jpg
    "Little Bear" 1955 Fontana 18' - 1958 Atomic 4
    1960 Skippy 12C FeatherCraft - 1947 Mercury KD4 Rocket
    " Fela " 1985 Glen L15 - 1977 Johnson 15 hp
    2016 kayak Mill Creek 13

  32. #172
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Nice flip!
    I'm wondering why you didn't glass the bottom before the flip.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  33. #173
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by 2dogsnight View Post
    Sure would love to see your boat finished, sailing around Penrose State Park this summer....or next summer .
    Boat is looking great Alex. I am thinking about building small (13 feet) low HP motorboat.
    Torpedo1.jpg
    Me too!

    Any chance of starting a build thread on that low HP motorboat?
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  34. #174
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    I'm wondering why you didn't glass the bottom before the flip.
    Rich, I have yet to build the centreboard case and cut out the slot for it. Same with the opening for the outboard motor well. The hull glass should be lapped over the edges of same once the case and well are installed.

    Now, there are likely a bunch of people out there who are clever enough to do all that while the hull is upside down, but I don't think I'm one of them. I thought about it but figured the chance of making an unrecoverable error of some kind was too high.

    Also, I wanted to get the inside seams and joints filleted and taped, to add more strength and stiffness, before I commenced final fairing and painting, in case things move a little. Feels pretty stiff now but you never know.

    Besides, the time it took from when my buddy showed up, to standing up the lifting frame, flipping the hull, moving the boat back inside and disassembling the frame again was only an hour and a half. I don't mind doing that a couple more times.
    Alex

    A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  35. #175
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Me too!

    Any chance of starting a build thread on that low HP motorboat?
    In the picture are frames made out of door skins, to give me an idea if I really like the design / size of it.....and I do. If I go ahead with the build it will be winter of 21/22.
    Your hull flipping idea is fantastic. Looks so easy, and the hull looks really good, very slim, very nice. It's going to be a great looking boat!
    "Little Bear" 1955 Fontana 18' - 1958 Atomic 4
    1960 Skippy 12C FeatherCraft - 1947 Mercury KD4 Rocket
    " Fela " 1985 Glen L15 - 1977 Johnson 15 hp
    2016 kayak Mill Creek 13

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